Mark Klein is my Hero!

[NeilBlanchard]

Greetings,

Who is Mark Klein, you may ask? He is the "AT&T Wiretap Whistleblower" who has evidence of an optical cable tap, that copied EVERYTHING to the NSA! That's something on the order of 2.3GB/sec of data -- and it is not just suspected terrorists talking to someone overseas -- it includes domestic communication between American citizens. It copied everything that came through the cable: all phone conversations, all Internet traffic, all data transfers, all VoIP calls -- everything. This happened in at least 15 different AT&T offices.

This was done in secret, without any warrant from the courts, or any legislative approval.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/stor ... d=16088947
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/stor ... d=16105375

It also (probably) happened in every other major telephone/data companies -- except Quest! They had the good sense of realizing that this is completely illegal and totally unconstitutional.

Mark Klein is my hero -- I wish more Americans were like him. We need to prevent the Congress and Bush from passing an amnesty law for these companies! They were asked to do an illegal thing, and they should have refused -- as Quest did; and they should be held accountable along with the Bush administration!

[Ralf Hutter]

And on a completely related note, I'll probably be in trouble with .gov for saying this, but the "Patriot Act" has got to be the single scariest piece of legislation that's ever been foisted on the US. This has/will have the biggest negative impact on our civil liberties of anything they've ever tried to shove down our throats. And what's even more scary, most of the American Lemmings, er sheeple, er people either don't care or think it's something positive in the "fight against terrorism". :rolleyes:

/rant

This is a very, very sore spot with me.

[derekva]

Well, you can start by joining the ACLU - their whole reason for existance is to support civil liberties. You may disagree with some of their positions, but they've been fighting this sort of thing since their inception.

-D

ps. Yes, I walk the walk - I'm a card-carrying member of the ACLU

[Trip]

Scarier than the government's power to declare you an unlawful combatant and revoke your rights (e.g. it can torture you.)?

"If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stomping on a human face -- forever." -- George Orwell

Isn't progress wonderful?

Anyway Neil, whom do you think they're spying upon? It's right wing folks who are in the way of Bush's beloved North American Union, not Islam.

[Erssa]

Sorry, but I have no sympathy for you. It's amazing how americans find it completely unacceptable for NSA to invade your privacy, but at the same time you feel that it's completely OK for CIA to invade the privacy of people who just happen to live in other countries, even ally countries of USA. From a moral point of view there's no difference, if the privacy is invaded in USA, Iraq, UK, Russia or Finland.

I wouldn't be suprised, if CIA is using the same technology on people in other countries.

[NeilBlanchard]

Hello,

If the CIA or the NSA (or any private company) is listening in indiscriminately on anybody, I don't like it. Probably cause is an important protection, and it must apply to all people -- if we are going to have a chance of prevailing against terrorism.

We (the USA) are going about it all wrong -- even calling it the "war on terrorism" shows that our leaders don't have a grasp on what is really the root of the problem. This is about the only point that I agree with Ron Paul about.

My point is that Bush and his buddies have lied to us -- again. They have done something illegal in secret -- again. And the only way we find out about it is when someone with strong principles and the conviction to stand up and tell his fellow citizens about it, like Mark Klein.

It is a sad and terrible day when the president lies, and a citizen must show him for what he is.

[Trip]

Sorry, but I have no sympathy for you. It's amazing how americans find it completely unacceptable for NSA to invade your privacy, but at the same time you feel that it's completely OK for CIA to invade the privacy of people who just happen to live in other countries, even ally countries of USA. From a moral point of view there's no difference, if the privacy is invaded in USA, Iraq, UK, Russia or Finland.

I wouldn't be suprised, if CIA is using the same technology on people in other countries.

Surely you didn't really mean America committing unjust acts against its own citizens is no worse than committing them against foreigners? Have you no sense of patriotism?

The US government is supposed to act in the best interests of Americans, not against political rivals. Morally this is atrocious.

Put another way, the fed is acting oppose to its intended purpose.

Secondly, this is extremely dangerous; if appropriate safe guards are not established, a small political faction could take control.

There is a difference between a government acting against its citizens in the interests of a small elite and against the interests of those it is not elected to represent. Subtle shades of meaning are important; the world is more complicated than right and wrong, some acts are worse than others and it does matter whom one commits them against when weighing their significance.

America is dangerous though, don't get me wrong. I'll be voting Ron Paul in the primaries in the hopes that America's powers and abuses of its powers are severely restricted.

[peteamer]

Surely you didn't really mean America committing unjust acts against its own citizens is no worse than committing them against foreigners? Have you no sense of patriotism?

Your lessons in 'British ironic humour' are coming along well I see.....

[Erssa]

Surely you didn't really mean America committing unjust acts against its own citizens is no worse than committing them against foreigners? Have you no sense of patriotism?

“Patriotism is a pernicious, psychopathic form of idiocy.â€

[dhanson865]

Sorry, but I have no sympathy for you. It's amazing how americans find it completely unacceptable for NSA to invade your privacy, but at the same time you feel that it's completely OK for CIA to invade the privacy of people who just happen to live in other countries, even ally countries of USA. From a moral point of view there's no difference, if the privacy is invaded in USA, Iraq, UK, Russia or Finland.

I wouldn't be surprised, if CIA is using the same technology on people in other countries.

Surely you didn't really mean America committing unjust acts against its own citizens is no worse than committing them against foreigners? Have you no sense of patriotism?

The US government is supposed to act in the best interests of Americans, not against political rivals. Morally this is atrocious.

You know if you look on the left side of a message it will name the author of that message and give a location as specified in that persons profile. You might notice mention of a non US country near Erssa's name. Seriously doesn't Location: Finland mean anything to you?

[Trip]

dhanson865,

I've spoken with Erssa before in here; I'm well aware of his origin and location.

However, we're discussing an objective ideal; Erssa is quite capable of reasoning on the issue of patriotism despite his being Finnish.

---

Erssa,

last I read your comments you were far from an individualist, bordering on fascist. You're now a libertarian?

Well, you know my view: a hierarchy of ties ought to be respected with people looking after those they're most closely tied to and have the strongest duty to defend. The principle of subsidiarity (I haven't changed ) Man is a social being; it's natural to care for one's own people.

[peteamer]

Erssa is quite capable of reasoning on the issue of patriotism despite his being Finnish.

Trip, no need to be racist...




That's a different thread.....

[Trip]

--

Erssa, I was just thinking: by patriotism I didn't mean blind loyalty to the government. I meant rather one's loyalty to one's own people - a government elected by these people would ideally act in their interests though governments often are corrupt and do not.

I don't trust government, but it has certain duties it must perform. Thus it must be entrusted with certain powers, however dangerous doing such is.

[Erssa]

Erssa,

last I read your comments you were far from an individualist, bordering on fascist. You're now a libertarian?

I don't feel loyalty to any ideology, so it's possible that my views have changed (I prefer improved) over time. Ideologically I'm quite libertarian, I find especially anarcho-capitalism quite appealing. But I'm also a realist. I'm never going to have the opportunity to live in a anarcho-capitalist state, so out of necessity I have to oppose ideas that I would support in my ideal state, for example immigration. My country's social welfare system just cannot support uneducated, endlessly breeding, economic black holes from Africa.

So because my ideal and practical ideologies differ so much, I might come out as illogical. I'm sure many libertarians think that I'm a fascist, because of my view on human rights, especially human rights of criminals.

Erssa, I was just thinking: by patriotism I didn't mean blind loyalty to the government. I meant rather one's loyalty to one's own people - a government elected by these people would ideally act in their interests though governments often are corrupt and do not.

I understand what you mean by patriotism. And to answer your question: Yes, I have a tiny sense of patriotism. For example I'm excited when I see Finnish ice hockey team play. But I think most people are really sheeple and I don't feel like I own them any loyalty just because we happen to occupy the same geological spot.

[Michael Sandstrom]

Some privacy laws are very strictly enforced. Consider U.S. bank secrecy laws which are designed to prevent the public from knowing the full extent that politicians have and are looting the nation's banks.

In the 70s and 80s, I was a federal bank examiner. When Reagan and Bush gained power they orchestrated massive looting of banks and S&Ls. The extent of these crimes was brought to light by courageous bank examiners who lost their careers by not going along with the program.

Today, there are no headlines about politicians looting the banking system. The looting continues without the public being aware because the bank examining agencies have been destroyed.

IMO the nation's portfolio of bank loans includes over 2 trillion dollars of outright phony loans to borrowers fronting for Democratic and Republican politicians.

[Trip]

Erssa,

oh wow an ancap. Grr, I'm a peasant so we're ideological enemies (no big deal )

IMO the nation's portfolio of bank loans includes over 2 trillion dollars of outright phony loans to borrowers fronting for Democratic and Republican politicians.

Incredible claim. I'm unfamiliar with this really - where might I learn more? I can't say I'd be surprised.

[Michael Sandstrom]

Trip,

The banking system operates under a cloak of secrecy. The three federal regulatory agencies (Federal Reserve, Comptroller of the Currency and FDIC) are more secretive than the CIA. The honest and capable examiners of all three agencies have been removed. There is no way for investigative journalists to gather information.

If you are really interested and would like to know how this mega-scam works, read Inside Job - The Looting Of America's Savings And Loans by Stephen Pizzo, Mary Fricker, and Paul Muolo.

[walle]

Have you no sense of patriotism?

None what so ever: I only see misplaced patriotic rants being used against the countries own citizens (on either side of the Atlantic) and that those rants results in creating a mindset amongst the majority of the populace, which in turn clouds their judgment and hampers their ability to think straight. The politicians (and others) are using it to override democracy and putting our nation’s one step closer to full out fascist states, whilst using fear and ignorance combined with misplaced patriotism in the process as a mean to achieve it. That's what it looks like to me, not a brightest of interpretations perhaps, well; I call it as I see it.

IMHO

The banking system operates under a cloak of secrecy

The Federal Reserve consists of privately owned banks which have their headquarters in London I believe. The banking system is a joke in my view; it’s like if they’re simply playing a game of monopoly. Hell; they even spend money that they don’t have, you can not print money without any (so called) backing, such as gold and the likes. Still they do it, I’m sure that we’ll be in for a very nasty surprise in a near future. Heck, I’m actually thinking about purchasing gold and silver instead, and cashing in (so to speak) the monopoly money, I mean, the paper money. Just keeping some money but replacing my savings with gold and silver instead of monopoly money.


By the way; The world is a small place so as I see it were all in this together. What happens on either side of the Atlantic and on other places on this globe effects us all, whether we like it or not.


Edit:

Who is Mark Klein, you may ask?

In my view a hero for mankind (by all means, laugh if you like). Someone who showes that there still is integrity present amongst the "ruling" elite. We need more, over there as well as here.


cheers

[Erssa]

None what so ever: I only see misplaced patriotic rants being used against the countries own citizens (on either side of the Atlantic) and that those rants results in creating a mindset amongst the majority of the populace, which in turn clouds their judgment and hampers their ability to think straight. The politicians (and others) are using it to override democracy and putting our nation’s one step closer to full out fascist states, whilst using fear and ignorance combined with misplaced patriotism in the process as a mean to achieve it. That's what it looks like to me, not a brightest of interpretations perhaps, well; I call it as I see it.

Sorry, but you aren't making much sense here. You speak of "mindset amongst the majority" and then you say "override democracy". Isn't rule of majority one of the main principles of democracy? And what makes you think this mindset is a result of rants and not vice versa? It's more likely, that the rants are the manifestation of the current mindset.

Majority's ability to think straight isn't hampered, it's quite the opposite. Majority of sheelpes already have tunnel vision, and they lack the ability to think critically and see the big picture. Sheeples are and have been always brainwashed, used and guided by some political group or movement. Fear and ignorance are their main weapons, because majority is scared and ignorant. Socialists (the greedy poor), capitalists (the greedy rich), patriots (racists), environmentalist (global warming scaremongers) or some religious movement (intolerant fanatics) all feed on fear and ignorance.

And what's wrong with fascism? It doesn't differ that much from democracy. Both democracy and fascism oppress the minority by the tyranny of majority. When democrats want to steal my money in form of taxes and I refuse to pay this "protection money" to the goverment mafia, I am threatened with violence and punished with violent imprisonment.

In my view a hero for mankind (by all means, laugh if you like). Someone who showes that there still is integrity present amongst the "ruling" elite. We need more, over there as well as here.

I don't think Mark Klein qualifies for ruling elite. He is your average Joe technician AFAIK. But nevertheless hero of some sort.

And by the way, if you have extra money, don't support the banking system by buying their gold and silver. Invest in third world equity funds. Morally it constitutes as some kind of charity work. Except it's only better, because profits are higher and unlike charity, these investments create permanent jobs and prosperity in 3rd world countries. It's the best way to fight poverty.

[Trip]

I've just ordered Inside Job - The Looting Of America's Savings And Loans. (cost: $.01 + shipping at amazon) Thanks!

I'm somewhat aware of this issue, but I do need to read more on it.

[aristide1]

...., but the "Patriot Act" has got to be the single scariest piece of legislation that's ever been foisted on the US. ...

No the scariest thing is the complete lack of scruples and ethics by those in charge and their ability to live like they are above any and all laws.

In second place would be the 31% which still stand by him. I mean honestly you couldn't be that stupid if you were 100% illiterate.

Don't worry Ralf Amnesty International will save you. And wouldn't that make an interesting global headline.

[NeilBlanchard]

Hello,

If the president claims all these special "war powers" and the end of that war is nowhere in sight, and no one has any oversight or checks on these powers -- it certainly sounds like a recipe for disaster to me. I can already taste the bitterness...

Have you heard of the so-called "national security letters" (aka NSL's)? In case you have not heard of them: the FBI (and who knows who else?) can send a letter to anybody's bank and/or telephone company and/or ISP and/or library -- and without any court order, they can demand all of your records -- and the bank/company cannot reveal to anyone that this has happened.



Mere words fail to describe how serious a threat this is to our Constitution. If it doesn't scare you, then you need to think about it a bit more...

[aristide1]

I believe the logic of the 31%-ers would be you have nothing to fear if you have nothing to hide. As if fake trumped up charges never happen and the administration is 100% honest and accurate.

[aristide1]

Trip,

The banking system operates under a cloak of secrecy. The three federal regulatory agencies (Federal Reserve, Comptroller of the Currency and FDIC) are more secretive than the CIA. The honest and capable examiners of all three agencies have been removed. There is no way for investigative journalists to gather information.

If you are really interested and would like to know how this mega-scam works, read Inside Job - The Looting Of America's Savings And Loans by Stephen Pizzo, Mary Fricker, and Paul Muolo.

Which is why the likes of this adminstration are turning the US into a 3rd world country.

[Jokoto]

I had read about the NSLs but I guess I had not really grasped how serious an issue they really are. Sadly, the United States is going to hell in a handbasket with all these serious, fundamental problems building up one by one. There doesn't seem to be any way to rescue it from bankruptcy, its reputation is forever tarnished and all the while much of its population is oblivious and ignorant to it all. Those that DO know the state of things seem to be vastly outnumbered by the ignorant masses, or at least they lack a voice with which to effect any change.

Here's an article from The Washington Post on someone's personal experience with a national security letter:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... 01882.html

[Plissken]

Sadly, the United States is going to hell in a handbasket with all these serious, fundamental problems building up one by one. There doesn't seem to be any way to rescue it from bankruptcy, its reputation is forever tarnished and all the while much of its population is oblivious and ignorant to it all.

GDP Per Capita
USA: $43,800
Finland: $33,500

Unemployment
USA: 4.8%
Finland: 7.0%

If we are going to "hell in a handbasket", what about you? Give me a break!

[Michael Sandstrom]

Plissken, GDP is pure bullshit as a measure of economic wellbeing for a lot of different reasons. GDP is dominated by government spending which includes the massive costs of the wars in the middle east (which no reasonable person considers a benefit). The per capita war cost was estimated at $7,000.

In America we have scores of undiscovered Enron like ponzi schemes reporting phony income which inflates GDP. It is very sad but many of the largest American corporations have been looted and are like Potemkin villages.

A person who is in a position to look behind the numbers will find the truth deeply disturbing.

[Plissken]

Plissken, GDP is pure bullshit as a measure of economic wellbeing for a lot of different reasons.

When you begin an agrument like that, you have no leg to stand on. Try again.

GDP Per Capita
USA: $43,800
Somalia: $600

[Michael Sandstrom]

Plissken, Have you been following the free fall of the US dollar? What the hell do you think is going on?

[Erssa]

GDP Per Capita
USA: $43,800
Finland: $33,500

Unemployment
USA: 4.8%
Finland: 7.0%

If we are going to "hell in a handbasket", what about you? Give me a break!

GDP Growth
USA 3,2%
Finland 5,5%

Inflation
USA 2,5%
Finland 1,2%

National debt
USA: 70% of GDP
Finland: 35% of GDP

You are in the middle of a subprime mortgage crisis, oil prices are going up and value of dollar is going down. Future doesn't really look too bright for you at the moment.

Finland on the other hand is living on constant economical growth and our unemployment is steadily diminishing (5.9% is the lastest number). Things are looking good for us.

2 years from now, I'm going to come back and dig up this thread. It'll be fun to compare numbers then.