The Tata "Nano" -- the $2,500 People's Car

[NeilBlanchard]

Greetings,

So, what do you think of the $2,500 Tata Nano?



http://www.ibnlive.com/photogallery/627 ... view_start

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tata_Nano

http://jalopnik.com/343003/the-2500-tat ... d-in-india

http://wheels.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/01 ... st-car/?hp





51.7 mpg (US City), 61.1 mpg (US Highway) Fits four adults -- not too bad, really! They say in a year or two, it will be sold outside of India.

[andyb]

Has this car passed any safety tests in any countries that understand the concept of "safety".

The last time I heard about a dirt cheap car being tested in the UK (about a year ago), it failed and is not legal to sell in the UK, it got 0 out of 5, the only car to have ever done so.


Andy

[NeilBlanchard]

Hi Andy,

All they claim is that it passes all the safety test in India. I'm pretty sure is not as safe as the Smart car, for example.

[adam_mccullough]

Surely a 33bhp car would be fairly painful to drive? My old ford escort diesel was about 70bhp and often dangerously slow moving off at junctions and roundabouts. I realise this is a much lighter car, but I still reckon it'd be a total nightmare to drive with three or four people inside...

Also, the fuel economy isn't good for such a light car and small engine; the citroen c1 has about the same passenger space and almost identical fuel consumption, but with twice the horsepower and a good safety record.

Pretty much the only thing going for this is the incredibly low price... great for india maybe but I wouldn't want to drive one on western roads!

[Ralf Hutter]

L.A. Times had a story about this car in this morning's paper, they cited gross pollution concerns. FWIW.

[aristide1]

I wonder if the paint will hold up better than a Suzuki or a Chevy. And somebody check the lead content before bringing it here.

Anyone recall that other ultra cheap car the Yugo?

[LAThierry]

There's something to be said about the stringent safety regulations of other countries, knowing that these Indian and Chinese cars can't pass them.

My friend's wife's survived when a big rig slammed into her car at 45 mph. The car was totalled but behaved as it was engineered for: the crumple zone, airbags and seatbelt certainly played a role in her walking away from the accident.

While I applaud the effort at making smaller and more economical cars, this one looks like a golf cart with windows and a roof. I've seen scooters with bigger tires. What's the point of "saving the environment" if the car can't save its driver?

[walle]

With such a small engine its bound to be an environmental nightmare, a 2 cylinder petrol engine generating 33bhp takes care of that, add to that the poor safety as its final nail in the coffin and we’re not going to see this box on European soil any time soon.

[aristide1]

What you describe is the norm, but it doesn't have to be. Take the more sophisticated scooter engines out there. They have 4 valves and fuel injection. Typically the 250CC Yamaha engine makes great power for it's size and gets the same mileage as a 150CC scooter with a carb. Suzuki's 400 CC engine also gets great power and top speed with the same mileage as a 250CC engine with a carb. You pay more up front, but ultimately it's cheaper in the long run. Many people understand this basic economic function, something that continues to escape the Detroit mindset. Despite what the other guy said about another nail in the coffin of the US auto industry simple economics (and styling/ performance) drive the auto industry.

If they expect this car to be successful in the US on a long term they need to understand that people just don't have the time to spend waiting for a car repair. And nobody is going to wait any amount of time for parts to arrive. That's a big cost for cars, proper and fast servicing, ie parts distribution and a knowledgeable technical repair staff. If that were not the case all these ultra cheap Chinese scooters that are entering the country would have steamrolled over the established brands, but they haven't. They do appeal to the buyers who can't get over the low price, and later sell the thing out of sheer frustration that stems for no parts availability.

Of course if the original parts are junk and the replacement parts are also junk then nothing will help.

Forgotten to mention another mistake the other guy made. Yamaha employs catalytic converters on even its 125cc Vino without any price penalty, and they also have cats on Yamahas as well. These vehicles all compete against vehicles without them cost wise and performance wise, so in a mature and intelligent market anti-pollution devices such as these won't bring about the ruin that Detroit tried to convince our politicians was sure to happen. IE Chicken Little clucks incorrectly yet again.

Those facts sure are pesky creatures, aren't they?

[AuraAllan]

Anyone recall that other ultra cheap car the Yugo?

I remember it.

One of my friends parents had one.

It was really crappy made, felt extremely cheap, but it actually kept driving for a very long time with no problems at all.

[Matija]

I see 20-25yo Yugos every day. Awesome cars, very reliable, and no shortage of parts.

[walle]

What you describe is the norm, but it doesn't have to be. Take the more sophisticated scooter engines out there.

That’s correct, however; it becomes a different matter altogether when putting such an engine in a car opposed to putting it in a scooter or vespa, its made even worse when the car has to fulfil various safety regulations which tend to translate into increased weight in the construction, and increased weight equals increased fuel consumption. Also take into account that this car has to be able to carry four passengers adding even further weight thus strain on that little engine. Having said that though; there are other small engines out there which are better but none of them are used in this car.


Added:
Safety equals weight and weight equals increased fuel consumption, obtaining a decent balance between the two is difficult if not impossible, and when facing two ton Mercedes cars and various SUV models out on the motorway it doesn’t exactly benefit this car, its driver or passengers. Admittedly, its a so called city car, but people tend to go with what they have.

[aristide1]

I see 20-25yo Yugos every day.

Out of how many? And if you have few alternatives then that is also a factor.

Awesome cars, very reliable, and no shortage of parts.

That would mean no shortage of part there. In the US however.......

Your Yugos may have been built elsewhere from the US version. From what I recall of the Yugo the company had identified a defect in the carb, and the assembly line kept running and installing this defective part and sending it here. Even if later repaired the news story left Yugo's reputation in the garbage can.

[aristide1]

What you describe is the norm, but it doesn't have to be. Take the more sophisticated scooter engines out there.

That’s correct, however; it becomes a different matter altogether when putting such an engine in a car opposed to putting it in a scooter or vespa, its made even worse when the car has to fulfil various safety regulations which tend to translate into increased weight in the construction, and increased weight equals increased fuel consumption. Also take into account that this car has to be able to carry four passengers adding even further weight thus strain on that little engine. Having said that though; there are other small engines out there which are better but none of them are used in this car.


Added:
Safety equals weight and weight equals increased fuel consumption, obtaining a decent balance between the two is difficult if not impossible, and when facing two ton Mercedes cars and various SUV models out on the motorway it doesn’t exactly benefit this car, its driver or passengers. Admittedly, its a so called city car, but people tend to go with what they have.

Added: Some of the dirtiest engines are the tiniest engines. This has to do with the fact that it's the unburned gas that is a major cause of pollution. In small engines the area between the side of the piston and the cylinder wall above the piston rings is essentially a dead area. The companies have moved the piston rings up as high as they can be placed reliablely but it's still an issue. Often very large engines end up being ULEV engines because of issues like this. I wish they would publish pollution specs of 50cc 2 cycles engines used for weed whackers and chain saws. They really suck.

There is more to safety than just weight and crash tests. One thing not measured by the government, or anyone else, is the vehicle's manuverability, how well accident avoidance can be practiced. Now take an SUV with a high center of gravity. Oh hell, don't Jeeps come with warning stickers that say don't make any sudden turns or something like that? That's the downfall of current safety practices, they are all focused on after the crash. A mere educational class in accident avoidance could yield substantial results, but the government has already written off the weakest link of the whole process as totally hopeless. That weak link continues to be the driver. Compared to Greece (and probably most of Europe) and what it takes to get a license over there, the US driver is totally clueless. And in fact, he is.

Also, the tiny car faces no increased risk when hit by another car of the same size and weight. I suspect accidents could be worse in the US not because of the total weight, or lack thereof, but because of significantly larger weight differences in the vehicles. At over $5/gallon, and taxes on engine displacement as well, one would expect to see more consistency in the size and weight of vehicles in Europe.

[Plissken]

Greetings,
So, what do you think of the $2,500 Tata Nano?

It looks like you can't have a real car for $2500. By "real" I mean one that won't get squashed like a pancake vs. an 18 wheeler or even a large SUV.
Maybe they should try for $5000.

[NeilBlanchard]

Hello,

It is harder to burn all the fuel in a larger cylinder, not a smaller one! The flame spread is actually relatively slow, in a broad, thin area (at the top of a compressed piston). A smaller cylinder actually is easier to burn in a shorter period of time.

You are correct about the volume down to the first piston ring -- they move this as high as possible to reduce the amount of unburned fuel. Maybe this is why Wankel engines are so powerful for a given displacement?

As far as safety goes: how does a Formula 1 car protect it's driver in a 150mph crash into a solid wall? With a strong -- but light structure. I'm sure the Nano is not all that safe -- but the Smart car which is even smaller is quite safe. And there are several very light and very efficient cars being designed that are also quite safe:

(click on the image to open link)

And the Aptera Type 1:
http://www.aptera.com/

[mexell]

Hi Neil,
what you posted is not the Aptera but the Loremo, which is even more interesting because of consuming only 2 litres/100 km and having seats for four. There will even be a "sport" version with 65hp that is said to be loads of fun... and still very efficient

[Bluefront]

You guys have to look at the good side of this Indian car.....The could have the Indian on-line technical support based in the USA. Then when an Indian called for help, he couldn't understand anything either.

Look...I drive a little Sentra, but there is a big benefit to larger cars many of you over-look. They are usually much quieter to drive....by far. Compare the noise levels in a Lincoln at any speed, to a Yugo or this Indian car. We are concerned with noise levels.....right?

[adam_mccullough]

My (relatively) little 3-door Ford Focus is very quiet - my parents are always surprised to see me walk into their house because they don't hear me come down the drive... even though I go right past their living room windows. It's also pretty quiet inside unless you're accelerating hard. And I have the 2 litre model, I'm sure the more popular 1.6 is even quieter. Still, when pulling out of a minor road onto a busy dual carriagway full of 70mph traffic (something I currently have to do every weekday) I really appreciate the ~140bhp engine - I fear the Tata would be a complete death trap in some of the maneuvres I have to get through on my way to and from work!

[klankymen]

So, what do you think of the $2,500 Tata Nano?

I think it's ugly

[walle]

Stumbled upon this one whilst surfing around, your thoughts?

[pvt.gwh]

So, what do you think of the $2,500 Tata Nano?

I think it's ugly

Yeah, but cheap

[AuraAllan]

How about this one?

Its an electric car developed and made (in Denmark) back in the mid-80's.

[mr. poopyhead]

it's nice to see a sensibly sized car being made for a reasonable price... i hope it takes off...

imo, the fundamental problem with cars is their size... you have over 1000-2000kg of steel, carrying 60-100kg of flesh and bones... doesn't sound very efficient to me... it doesn't matter what kind of powerplant you are using, the fact is, over 90% of your energy goes into moving the CAR itself... even if you can create an engine that is 100% efficient, most of that energy goes into moving steel and glass. most cars these days are only carrying one person. i know i am often guilty of this...

just look at the car ads these days.. it's all about having enough horsepower to move a small tank around... if you really think about it, how can moving a single person around possibly take that much power? it's insane that we're using thousands of kW (horsepower?) just to move a SINGLE body around. every litre of gas you put in your car, maybe a FRACTION of that is being used to move your body around.

[JazzJackRabbit]

IMO $2500 is too much for this piece of junk. Granted, this may be a good car to a local market in India given their median income, road infrastructure, and that it may be safer than mopeds they usually ride, but I wouldn't ride it here unless I had absolutely no other choice.

[kernel32]

it's nice to see a sensibly sized car being made for a reasonable price... i hope it takes off...

imo, the fundamental problem with cars is their size... you have over 1000-2000kg of steel, carrying 60-100kg of flesh and bones... doesn't sound very efficient to me... it doesn't matter what kind of powerplant you are using, the fact is, over 90% of your energy goes into moving the CAR itself... even if you can create an engine that is 100% efficient, most of that energy goes into moving steel and glass. most cars these days are only carrying one person. i know i am often guilty of this...

just look at the car ads these days.. it's all about having enough horsepower to move a small tank around... if you really think about it, how can moving a single person around possibly take that much power? it's insane that we're using thousands of kW (horsepower?) just to move a SINGLE body around. every litre of gas you put in your car, maybe a FRACTION of that is being used to move your body around.

This is the first interesting and different opinion in the whole thread, what this guy said makes you think. And he's quite right.
PS: I don't like the Tata, but I like the Yugo and Citroen C1. I also like this one.

[CoolGav]

The Tata Nano is an Indian car, designed for India. It's meant to be cheap and replace scooters where family's all ride together (yes, on a single scooter). In light of that, it's a lot safer than the alternatives.

I'm not a fan, but who am I to deny the Indians (or anyone else) their right to a modern peoples car (VW, Mini, 500) to get them around?

[NeilBlanchard]

Greetings,

Hi Neil,
what you posted is not the Aptera but the Loremo, which is even more interesting because of consuming only 2 litres/100 km and having seats for four. There will even be a "sport" version with 65hp that is said to be loads of fun... and still very efficient

The Loremo picture links to their web page! I can't find a usable picture for the Aptera (they use Flash) so I just posted their link.

[PretzelB]

I heard about this on the radio and they had a funny comment. If you make a car this small, why try to make it a 4 door?

Regarding comments on safety, I used to think like others that how can such a vehicle be approved for the roads and then someone brought up motorcycles. If you allow a vehicle with no protection whatsoever then I'd say it's hard to restrict just about any car you can make (assuming it doesn't have some kind of exploding gas tank safety issue and the like).

[Bluefront]

Really the safety and emission laws in the USA will prevent this car ever being sold here......at that low price. By the time everything necessary was added/modified/approved, I suspect the cost would raise 3X. And then you'd still have a car with limited appeal. The good fuel mileage is not that much better than many small cars already here. And the cars like the Prius already match that mileage with a normal small-sized car.

I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for for it in the USA....