nick705 wrote:Das Saunamies wrote:You the official interrogator 'round these parts?
To be honest, to some extent I'm arguing for the sake of arguing (there's nothing much on TV).
I had that distinct feeling.
nick705 wrote:Scientology may very well be a money-making scam started by a bad science-fiction writer, but the fact remains, most of its followers genuinely believe in it, so why should their irrational beliefs be less deserving of respect than other people's irrational beliefs? -- I'm not entirely clear what you're saying here - it's not the theory that's wrong, it's the practice, but the unpleasant things mandated in the theory are (wrongly) put into practice by some individuals, therefore there's nothing wrong with the theory?
If I was unclear on what I said before, I'll clarify this here: I don't regard religions by their holy texts that are mostly fairy tale and fiction. In them, though, can be found the core values that shape a society's morality, and in those I believe. For Christianity, those values deal with Love and Respect, Forgiveness and ultimately the Salvation. Those values to me are sound: love those around you, respect those above you, forgive those below you, and be humble, for you shall be rewarded. AZBrandon summed up nicely what the rest of it is about.
Anyone is free to believe what they will in the confines of their reason, as far as I am concerned - but I'm also concerned by what those beliefs, faith, lead to. This is what I meant when I said "it's not the theory, it's the practice": the texts are for individuals to read as they will, but their actions speak the loudest. If someone reads passages urging to harm a fellow man, that event is no concern of mine. If this leads to them doing so, then it is.
So, actions and the world today. What is in the past we cannot change. But today there has been much change, and the Christian church is no longer ruled entirely by people willing to start wars or witchhunts based on questions of faith. Other abolishments include paying for your way to salvation
(coughScientologycough) for example. Things have moved on, and so should those who still criticise the past mistakes.
Incidentally I talked to a friend of mine whose relative was in a chapter of the Finnish Scientologists. Here are a few practical examples she gave me:
- The starting fees are high. As Scientology (like other intensely salvation-y cults) most speaks to people who have been traumatised or are otherwise at a low point in their lives, their assets are not much. It is not uncommon to have to resort to loans to get accepted.
- You have to keep paying increasing amounts to receive further acceptance. It is expected and mandated for you to do so.
- Scientologists often back or are forced to back each others' loans. This leads to a cycle that binds you to the "faith". As most are, to put it bluntly, deadbeats, the financial downhill only steepens.
- Scientologists actively separate initates from their normal circles of life, taking over their social activities. This confines the initiates to the chapter.
- It is immensely difficult to get out of Scientology once you're in it deep. Your debt and your backings bind you, and your social life has been taken over by the chapter. You are trapped.
The money is the key to Scientology. It is the financial ruin and social isolation that the cult brings that I most object to - their practice. There if anywhere the rich get richer and the poor get poorer. All the fancy mansions and wealth come from scamming the less fortunate. (I saw one such mansion in Washington D.C.)
And to clarify my personal stance, as the word "defend" came up:
I don't believe in the Christian God
per se, but I do believe in good will amongst men, higher powers and order, if just natural ones, and in good and bad. Core values matter most of all, dress them up with a cross or a crescent, and the actions and consequences will speak the loudest.
So far Scientology has been a scam to ruin people's lives, and so it will remain in my books. I'm not trying to be
for Christianity here, mind you, nor do I expect anyone to be defending Scientology. Believe what makes YOU happy, do what makes EVERYONE happy.
Hope the last bits at least answer your question as well, Bluefront?
I would love to get into the Latter Day Saints and Jehovah's Witnesses, but fortunately that is not my fight, not today. It's a real minefield when you deal with established cults like those (although only the LDS is technically a cult, founded by a man for his own benefit... but don't drag me in there).
And for walle, extensive reasoning and human logic only take one so far. I like a bit of magic and mystery in my life, and that does not mean I believe in an omnipotent bearded man on a throne... but I wouldn't rule it out (see Family Guy).
But you of course also promoted an open mind, so let us not clash on that one!
And thank you, Sendorm, for the information on the movie and the difficulties a translation faces. I'm familiar with the hurdles, as I'm studying for a degree in translation myself.