Stopping Murders in the USA ?

Bluefront · Post by **Bluefront** » Fri Feb 08, 2008 3:47 am

According to the mother of this latest St. Louis area murderer it was an "act of God". I keep getting the impression that some people think they are above the law.....the murderer was shouting "justice" as was killing. The mother of this guy blamed the city for the murders, implying it was god who administered the "justice", rather than her son.

The St Louis area murders continue, with no end in sight. IMHO....the only possible answer is swift capital punishment for murder. Nothing else works.

Post by **NeilBlanchard** » Fri Feb 08, 2008 4:50 am

Hi Carl,

I heard a report on this on the radio this morning. The man was well known to the authorities -- he had just lost a case that he had brought against the city, like a week ago. He thought that the city was victimizing him, and he had a lot of fines leveled against him for previous disruptions of similar meetings.

He was (probably) a nutcase -- a very troubled individual for sure, and I'm very sorry that he had access to any guns. I don't see how capitol punishment would have had any affect -- the shooter was killed on the scene.

seraphyn · Post by **seraphyn** » Fri Feb 08, 2008 5:04 am

Nutcases with guns, what a lovely combination. Over here it's usually nutcases with knives.

lm · Post by lm » Fri Feb 08, 2008 5:22 am

Didn't God tell Bush to invade the Iraq? Pretty many innocent people died there too.

Oh and here it's nutcases with AXES :p

Try to take care of potential nutcases before they go haywire instead of just letting them get more and more mental with no help from anyone.

AuraAllan · Post by **AuraAllan** » Fri Feb 08, 2008 5:58 am

lm wrote:Didn't God tell Bush to invade the Iraq? Pretty many innocent people died there too.

Oh and here it's nutcases with AXES :p

Try to take care of potential nutcases before they go haywire instead of just letting them get more and more mental with no help from anyone.

Pretty many innocent people still die there.

In Denmark knives has been a huge problem lately. Not nutcases with knives. Just morons with knives.

One guy got stabbed to death because he wouldnt hand over his hat. He was 19.

EndoSteel · Post by **EndoSteel** » Fri Feb 08, 2008 9:29 am

Bluefront
The St Louis area murders continue, with no end in sight. IMHO....the only possible answer is swift capital punishment for murder. Nothing else works.
This won't either, since it's the same old fighting with the consequence, not the cause. The question is: what makes people think they can judge and condemn?

andyb · Post by **andyb** » Fri Feb 08, 2008 10:05 am

Anyone that tries to blame murder on something other than the murderer themselves is a plain idiot, people have done this before with books, films and computer games, blaming God seems to be even worse and even less likely to be proven in court (not that it will the murderer is fortunately dead).

Andy

EndoSteel · Post by **EndoSteel** » Fri Feb 08, 2008 11:51 am

BTW, the Bible says only God has the right to judge what's right and wrong, mere mortals don't. So the lady's words are plain herecy

.

djkest · Post by **djkest** » Fri Feb 08, 2008 12:15 pm

EndoSteel wrote:BTW, the Bible says only God has the right to judge what's right and wrong, mere mortals don't. So the lady's words are plain herecy .

You also ignore where the Bible says "an eye for an eye" ? The judging thing you are referring to is saying that only God can say whether or not someone is going to heaven. It never says that only God can decide what is right and wrong. Even Jesus himself encouraged his followers to follow local laws.

I'm not condoning the actions of this guy, and I'm sad he used guns for violence. I've been using guns since I was 8. I used to be in shooting sports for 4 years, shot at the state competition a few times. We shot air rifles and .22 cal bolt actions. I used the M-16 and three different types of fully automatic weapons in the army. Literally, thousands of rounds. In all that time, I've never had 1 accident, and never killed even a small animal. By some people's standards, I must be crazy. I own 5 rifles and 2 handguns. But I can assure you I'm not about to take any of them to a city council meeting.

Bluefront · Post by **Bluefront** » Fri Feb 08, 2008 12:57 pm

Since this morning a lot more information became known....the first person he surprised on the parking lot was a cop. After killing him, this guy took his weapon......probably a semi-auto 9mm. So when he used up all the bullets in his own gun, he now had a second weapon. All the gun laws in the world cannot stop a surprise attack on an armed policeman, who then can have his gun stolen.

Capital punishment? The cops used it on him, and saved the State the expense of a trial.......not to mention the expense of keeping this maggot alive for the next twenty years. Guaranteed....capital punishment works. It stopped the guy from further killing, and it made the rest of us safer least some bleeding-heart liberal judge release him on some technicality.

Had one civilian in that meeting room been carrying, most of the killing could have been stopped. We have the right to do so in this state.....too bad so few people are armed. This community is filled with people with the same mind-set as this murderer. They're not all crazy, which makes them even more dangerous.

And the St Louis murders continue...... this man's brother said the murders were "justified". I heard the words on the radio. The murders were pre-meditated, because he left a sort-of suicide note his brother revealed. There are ways this killing could be stopped, but it's not something we do any longer. Too bad....

seraphyn · Post by **seraphyn** » Fri Feb 08, 2008 2:54 pm

The only reason i'm a supporter of capitol punishment is because i don't want some murdering child rapist living out his life from my tax money. It's not a deterrent at all, but it can be an effective money saver, if people wouldn't also spend many years in death row first.

As for armed people interfering, please no. Unless they're crack shots, please stay the hell out of it. Armed people who can't shoot very very well will most likely only make things worse.
This is also why I'm against the whole right to bear arms. Not everyone should be allowed to have a gun. Morons who can't aim for shit shouldn't be allowed to bring their poor shooting to the streets.
This one civilian who had been packing that you mention might as well have shot another innocent person, or multiple ones because he couldn't handle the situation, his weapon or both properly which most often only makes things worse.

Guns should be for law enforcement, and only be allowed to selected individuals based on their skills with the weapon and a good mindset to deal with tough situations.

Bluefront · Post by **Bluefront** » Fri Feb 08, 2008 3:06 pm

In order to get a "carry" permit in this state, you must take training classes, and demonstrate your ability to use a gun. Since this state legalized this law, I'm not aware of a single instance where a legally carried handgun caused an injury, or was used to commit a crime. Doesn't happen....

But I frequently hear where a legally carried weapon prevents a crime. The most recent.....a pizza delivery guy legally carrying, killed a guy trying to rob him. Less than a month ago in St Louis.....

seraphyn · Post by **seraphyn** » Fri Feb 08, 2008 3:34 pm

Bluefront wrote:In order to get a "carry" permit in this state, you must take training classes, and demonstrate your ability to use a gun.

Is there also some sort of psych test? Besides the usual background test, to prevent possible Rambo like scenario's.

For me personally: I don't feel safer when i know that people walk around with a gun in public, rather the opposite. Probably because i didn't grow up with them and the only time i saw one used was to kill a guy over his mp3 player.
Then i read in the paper every now and then about a husband shooting his wife and kid with his legally obtained gun and i wonder why no one bothered to do a proper check on it.
Sure there are people out there that can handle carrying a gun in public, there are also people who can stay cool headed enough to use them properly should the need be there. But not everyone.

So, how 'easy' is it to obtain a gun, for self protection in your home (which can then be abused and taken out of said home), not for public carrying?

jaganath · Post by **jaganath** » Fri Feb 08, 2008 5:05 pm

I frequently hear where a legally carried weapon prevents a crime. The most recent.....a pizza delivery guy legally carrying, killed a guy trying to rob him.

or you could say the carrying of a gun led one relatively low-grade crime (robbery) to be replaced with a much more serious one (murder).

Bluefront · Post by **Bluefront** » Fri Feb 08, 2008 9:42 pm

jaganath....I hear that argument against carrying used by anti-gun people frequently. What they conveniently over-look is the pizza guy was being robbed at gunpoint, and could have been killed also. In that situation, the pizza guy had a legal right to defend himself using any means possible.

Just owing a gun is legal here without training classes....just a back-ground check. A carry permit is much more difficult to get. Five dead people out of a possible thirty who were in that meeting room. One armed civilian might have prevented the last three deaths.

Trip · Post by **Trip** » Sat Feb 09, 2008 1:58 am

Just goes to show that if more people had had guns there, they could have shot him earlier and thus saved lives.

Well-trained, responsible men ought to be armed.

klankymen · Post by **klankymen** » Sat Feb 09, 2008 2:50 am

Trip wrote:Just goes to show that if more people had had guns there, they could have shot him earlier and thus saved lives.

Well-trained, responsible men ought to be armed.

To an extent I agree with you, although some people would probably coin me a leftist (American "liberal"), I would probably carry if I lived in a state that allowed it, or at least be happy to have the possibility.

On the other hand, the hardest part would be to ensure that only responsible people get it - and that's hard to judge.

seraphyn · Post by **seraphyn** » Sat Feb 09, 2008 3:25 am

klankymen wrote:On the other hand, the hardest part would be to ensure that only responsible people get it - and that's hard to judge.

And this is my beef with US gun laws. Everyone seems to be able to get one, at least for in their home which leads to them being taken outside as well.

andyb · Post by **andyb** » Sat Feb 09, 2008 3:46 am

Just owing a gun is legal here without training classes....just a back-ground check.

That law is retarded, the fact that you can buy a concealable deadly weapon with a background check only is moronic.

Anyone who passes that backgroung check can and ofter will "carry" that weapon whether it is legal or not.

Over her in the UK, we are legally allowed to buy a 9" kitchen knife (if you are over 18 ), but NO ONE is allowed to carry it around in the street with them in their back pocket, but people do.

If your policeman had been attacked with anything other than a gun there is a reasonable chance that the policeman wouldnt have been killed, and a reasonable chance that less people would have been killed with the policemans gun.

Your gun-laws are at fault - if they were more stringent this may have helped but that is unlikely as there are millions of handguns to be aquired for the wrong reasons. Or if handguns and and any automatic weapons were banned and slowly removed from circulation, then your country wouldnt be plauged by gun deaths to the same degree.

Andy

Bluefront · Post by **Bluefront** » Sat Feb 09, 2008 4:12 am

You might as well just forget about guns.....they are here to stay. No matter what sort of law is passed, the bad people can still get and carry them. Gun laws only prevent the good guys, the people who obey laws, from having a gun to defend himself. That's it...

This latest act of murder/domestic terrorism, is not about guns, but rather it's about a deeper problem..... a problem that concerns race relations between different communities. The killer was from Meacham Park, a mostly all-black area of the county annexed about 17 years ago by Kirkwood, a mostly white community right next to it.

Why Kirkwood wanted Meacham Park was obvious.....money. There was some prime real estate in Meacham Park, mostly older housing, that was then taken by Kirkwood for a big mall area. Since then, the residents of Meacham Park have been in a state of turmoil, resenting everything about Kirkwood, including the Kirkwood laws and the Kirkwood police. In the last few years, three Kirkwood cops have been murdered in addition to these latest civilian murders.

Who is to blame.....obviously the black Meachan Park murderers first. But also the city of Kirkwood is at fault, for assuming they could just take over a black neighborhood, enforce their own laws strictly, something this black area highly resents.

My conclusion.....neighborhood integration, without considering the racial aspects of such integration, is a mistake, a mistake that leads directly to violent situations, and murder.....

andyb · Post by **andyb** » Sat Feb 09, 2008 5:04 am

So you surmise that this was a race fuelled murder by a god-fearing nutcase, with the original problem being caused by white powerplay / white racism.

I cant begin to understand your gun issues the same way that you do, but the only long term strategy against gun crime is not to have guns for people to use for criminal activity, and that means not having guns at all, as guns will be stolen.

Your short-term solution is to have more people armed, so that in the event of the pizza-boy being robbed by a gun weilding criminal the pizza-boy can shoot him.

What happens next is that criminals fearing for their own lives will just shoot first. No threats means no possible action by the defender, and then just like the policeman, the criminal now has 2 guns.

I can see your point BF but I can only see escalation happening. For example in the UK, very few criminal use guns and most only use threats and no serious violence simply because they dont have to. The average person in this country wont have a gun, a knife or anything else to protect against a mugger/robber, to the criminal does not need much in the way of weaponary.

If everyone in the UK was allowed to carry around a knife all that will happen is that the criminals will carry a machete or a gun so they still ahve the upper hand.

I have no evidence that my theory is correct, but it does make sense, just like many criminals using gloves so that the dont leave fingerprints, before fingerprinting criminals didnt. How long will it be before criminals start wearing rubber suits to go burgling so they dont leave any hairs behind for the DNA crew to track them down. This is what I mean by escalation, there are 2 sides to this battle and we need to look at this from the criminal scums perspective as well.

I know what I would do if every single person I wanted to rob had a gun, shoot them first, rob them second.

Andy

Bluefront · Post by **Bluefront** » Sat Feb 09, 2008 5:16 am

"I know what I would do if every single person I wanted to rob had a gun, shoot them first, rob them second."

Don't think so.....since the punishment for murder is much greater than the punishment for robbery. What is more likely.....crime would be reduced overall if the criminal was more likely to be hurt/killed by his potentially armed victim. We need more armed "good" guys to make things safer.....IMHO.

Guns are here to stay, protected by our Second Amendment, and impossible to remove due to the massive number already here.

klankymen · Post by **klankymen** » Sat Feb 09, 2008 6:37 am

Simple solution: Make gun sales illegal. The gun owners will continue to have their guns, the criminals who get caught have their weapons confiscated, and eventually the guns in circulation among criminals wear out. At this point forbid guns alltogether.

What's stopping this? The NRA who makes millions and millions of dollars, half of which they bribe the government to make them continue to be able to do so.

Bluefront · Post by **Bluefront** » Sat Feb 09, 2008 7:25 am

Let me repeat, since non-Americans have so much trouble understanding. Gun ownership is a constitutionally protected right, guaranteed by our Second Amendment. This is not likely to be changed...ever.

Illegal gun sales are impossible to stop.

The existing countless guns are here to stay......forever.

Ammunition can be made in any garage using common materials.

Legislation of any sort is futile since it only affects good guys.

Bad guys will always have access to guns.

We have to deal with crime.....not guns.

klankymen · Post by **klankymen** » Sat Feb 09, 2008 7:59 am

Bluefront wrote:Illegal gun sales are impossible to stop.

Then how come there are so few in the civilized world? Ever notice that only crazy africans and Americans go around shooting each other with M16s and semi-automatic guns?

Gun laws seem to do something, just look at New York. Pity Guiliani isn't really running after all (or maybe he's just losing big time. Not that I'd vote him, but he has done some good.

Bluefront · Post by **Bluefront** » Sat Feb 09, 2008 8:39 am

"Then how come there are so few in the civilized world?" I can answer that. It has to do with freedom in the USA. We have never been living in a dictatorship, and have never been under Communism. The very first thing that happens under such rule......all guns are confiscated, with Draconian-type punishment for violation. Yeah, guns would soon vanish under such a system.

There are no guns in private hands in Cuba......a Communist dictatorship since Castro. Possession of a single bullet can get you killed. No thanks. Many European countries are the same, since guns were removed under previous Communist rule, and NAZI rule.

And if you go back to the very beginning of this country.....it was guns that won us our freedom from British rule. That's why gun ownership became the Second Amendment......and fiercely defended by freedom-loving Americans.

klankymen · Post by **klankymen** » Sat Feb 09, 2008 8:44 am

Nice that you feel that way.
But there is now way denying that there are 600 times the gun deaths in USA than in Germany or the UK.

qviri · Post by **qviri** » Sat Feb 09, 2008 9:29 am

Bluefront wrote:The existing countless guns are here to stay......forever.

What a marvelous piece of engineering they all must be

Erssa · Post by **Erssa** » Sat Feb 09, 2008 11:34 am

AuraAllan wrote:One guy got stabbed to death because he wouldnt hand over his hat. He was 19.

Without knowing any details, I'm willing to bet this was an example how immigration makes scandinavian culture more lively.

EsaT · Post by **EsaT** » Sat Feb 09, 2008 1:14 pm

Problem isn't plain guns, but also advertising guns as means of problem solving combined to "f*ck the others, I'm center of the world" attitude teaching environment.

Finland is one of the world's top countries when it comes to guns per population and despite of that gun homicides are much rarer than in US. Also many of those are related to suicides, someone killing first other family members before doing suicide... or end of drinking and quarrel.
It's rather good bet that general guns opposing environment not touting guns as solution and teaching that individual is part of society has lot do with it. (vs. "traditional", everyone answers only to himself, American style)

Bluefront wrote:We have never been living in a dictatorship...
The very first thing that happens under such rule......all guns are confiscated

Agree, just look how little loose weapons Saddam's era left.
Guns don't matter, only thing which matters is controlling people, after that everything is clear.

...and fiercely defended by freedom-loving Americans.

Could you then revoke what your Constitutional liberties and rights eroding theo-cons have done?
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... 63_pf.html
http://www.corpwatch.org/article.php?id=14821
Well, Dubya legalized torture and removed liberties and rights for war on terror so I guess this is also politically correct.
http://www.salemnews.net/news/articles. ... cleID=9849
Oh... but I forgot that any liberties and rights and whole Constitution, not to mention Geneva Conventions, are secondary to war on (=of) terror.