English isn't going to cut it according to OR politicians.

aristide1 · Post by **aristide1** » Sat Apr 12, 2008 6:52 pm

OK, maybe now I've seen everything.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FR5MjzHn ... re=related

Ummm, maybe not.

Michael Sandstrom · Post by **Michael Sandstrom** » Sat Apr 12, 2008 8:51 pm

The Youtube video showed a report from Fox News Channel. Fox News Channel reports are often slanted to serve some propaganda purpose. I think an element of truthiness may underlie that report.

mbetea · Post by **mbetea** » Sun Apr 13, 2008 11:24 am

Fox News: No one wears shorter skirts than us.

aristide1 · Post by **aristide1** » Sun Apr 13, 2008 12:22 pm

Yes, I agree that Fox news is slanted, but I think it may a bit much to say this story is a total lie. I don't think they would go that far.

Now do I think the government might create a dumb law? Maybe that happens on occasion.

jhhoffma · Post by **jhhoffma** » Mon Apr 14, 2008 5:58 am

Of course Fox News is slanted. Name one "news channel" that isn't?

However, the story I totally believe. In Michigan we spend more on teaching English-speakers Spanish than the other way around. We can't get enough ESL (English as a Second Language) teachers because the areas in question are unsafe and you can't get kids to stay in school for a whole year because they are mainly migrant workers. I wouldn't want to work in those conditions, for lower pay than the suburban teachers make...

The fact that in a midwestern city of 3/4 of a million people, you can live your life and never speak a word of English astounds me and upsets me. I'm glad I took Spanish in school, and I hope my kids do as well, but not to help out someone who lives permanently in a place and is unwilling to speak the NATIVE language!!

mr. poopyhead · Post by **mr. poopyhead** » Mon Apr 14, 2008 6:57 am

jhhoffma wrote:The fact that in a midwestern city of 3/4 of a million people, you can live your life and never speak a word of English astounds me and upsets me. I'm glad I took Spanish in school, and I hope my kids do as well, but not to help out someone who lives permanently in a place and is unwilling to speak the NATIVE language!!

this problem extends to a lot of immigrant communities. it's a great thing that we have multicultural cities now... but it's not so great when ethnic communities isolate themselves and refuse to integrate. i know of some people in the chinese community who have been here for more than 20 years and can't speak a word of english. it's really too easy to isolate yourselves these days... especially in the chinese community. we have chinses supermarkets, chinese banks, chinese work places. you can literally live in toronto your whole life and not speak a word of english...

my parents are immigrants, and i'm so glad that they taught me how to integrate AS WELL as keeping my roots. i think some immigrants are afraid they will lose their heritage if they integrate with the rest of society...

sure, i'm a little whitewashed. my chinese isn't great, and the only stuff i can read are menus... but i think i'm getting the best of both worlds.

i think it's really disrespectful to show up to a place and expect everyone to cater to YOUR needs, instead of trying to fit in. i'm not talking about assimilation here, but at least interact and live with the rest of the country. even when i'm a tourist, i try not to impose on others... i try to learn the language and experience what that culture has to offer.

nick705 · Post by **nick705** » Mon Apr 14, 2008 7:31 am

jhhoffma wrote: The fact that in a midwestern city of 3/4 of a million people, you can live your life and never speak a word of English astounds me and upsets me. I'm glad I took Spanish in school, and I hope my kids do as well, but not to help out someone who lives permanently in a place and is unwilling to speak the NATIVE language!!

I'm no expert on native American languages, but I guess that would be Algonquian?

xan_user · Post by **xan_user** » Mon Apr 14, 2008 8:18 am

nick705 wrote:
jhhoffma wrote: The fact that in a midwestern city of 3/4 of a million people, you can live your life and never speak a word of English astounds me and upsets me. I'm glad I took Spanish in school, and I hope my kids do as well, but not to help out someone who lives permanently in a place and is unwilling to speak the NATIVE language!!
I'm no expert on native American languages, but I guess that would be Algonquian?

Ding! Ding!

We have a winner!

English is no more native than Spanish is. Both languages got to the Americas by boat.
Native language arrived on foot, long before a single European word was spoken here.

Post by **NeilBlanchard** » Mon Apr 14, 2008 9:15 am

Hello,

Every group of immigrants has gone through this: Germans, Swedes, Norwegians, Jews, Chinese, Japanese, Irish, French Canadians, Russians, Poles, Thais, Vietnamese, Pacific Islanders, etc. etc. -- never mind the Africans who were enslaved by Americans.

Maybe we all need to learn to read and speak Myan?

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/mayacode/

xan_user · Post by **xan_user** » Mon Apr 14, 2008 9:48 am

NeilBlanchard wrote:Hello,

Every group of immigrants has gone through this: Germans, Swedes, Norwegians, Jews, Chinese, Japanese, Irish, French Canadians, Russians, Poles, Thais, Vietnamese, Pacific Islanders, etc. etc. -- never mind the Africans who were enslaved by Americans.

Maybe we all need to learn to read and speak Myan?

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/mayacode/

I just watched that last night!

It was moving to see the native Mayans learning their lost language at the end of the show.

jaganath · Post by **jaganath** » Mon Apr 14, 2008 9:52 am

xan_user wrote:Ding! Ding!

We have a winner!

English is no more native than Spanish is. Both languages got to the Americas by boat.
Native language arrived on foot, long before a single European word was spoken here.

wait, so is it THE native language simply on the principle of "they were there first", or is it length of time it has been spoken, or is it number of speakers, or because of the mode of transportation used?

just while we are assigning linguistic superiority on the basis of some kind of nebulous Victorian "noble savage" fantasy, I wanted to know what the criteria are. I can worship indigenous races too! I am educated AND politically correct!

nick705 · Post by **nick705** » Mon Apr 14, 2008 10:14 am

jaganath wrote: wait, so is it THE native language simply on the principle of "they were there first"

Yes, precisely, or it wouldn't be... well, native, would it? I don't think "linguistic superiority," PCness (oh dear god, please, let's not go there) or Victorian noble savages is really the issue...

Anyway, in one or two thousand years I don't suppose anyone will be speaking anything remotely recognisable to people living today, so who's speaking what at this particular snapshot in time hardly seems worth getting one's panties in a bunch over.

derekva · Post by **derekva** » Mon Apr 14, 2008 10:52 am

nick705 wrote:
jaganath wrote: wait, so is it THE native language simply on the principle of "they were there first"
Yes, precisely, or it wouldn't be... well, native, would it? I don't think "linguistic superiority," PCness (oh dear god, please, let's not go there) or Victorian noble savages is really the issue...

Anyway, in one or two thousand years I don't suppose anyone will be speaking anything remotely recognisable to people living today, so who's speaking what at this particular snapshot in time hardly seems worth getting one's panties in a bunch over.

Dear god, please don't let it be 'IM speak' in a millenium. Or for that matter, the annoying cat photo speak. On the plus side, at least I won't have to witness it.

-D

xan_user · Post by **xan_user** » Mon Apr 14, 2008 10:53 am

When I read the word "Native" I think of it it terms of "they were there first".

I was using mode of transportation as a sort of time line reference.

And then you lost me...I guess I need to bone up on my Victorian Old English.

While I can't comment on my neighbor state to the north, here in California, If we fired everyone that did not speak English, the Ag and service industry would collapse overnight. There would be a lot of unhappy millionaires that couldn't harvest grapes to make huge profits on wine any more, and their mansions would get very dirty. Worst of all, the golf courses would be overgrown by weeds! Meanwhile the cost of produce for the whole USA would skyrocket, as the remaining English speakers could never harvest it all themselves. Even George Bush understands this.

While Spanish is spoken by lower numbers of people here, than the rest of the American continent south of the US border, its still an important cog in the disgusting machine the USA is.

Post by **NeilBlanchard** » Mon Apr 14, 2008 3:51 pm

Greetings,

xan_user wrote:
NeilBlanchard wrote:Hello,

Every group of immigrants has gone through this: Germans, Swedes, Norwegians, Jews, Chinese, Japanese, Irish, French Canadians, Russians, Poles, Thais, Vietnamese, Pacific Islanders, etc. etc. -- never mind the Africans who were enslaved by Americans.

Maybe we all need to learn to read and speak Myan?

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/mayacode/
I just watched that last night!

It was moving to see the native Mayans learning their lost language at the end of the show.

Yes, it was.

Beyonder · Post by **Beyonder** » Mon Apr 14, 2008 7:52 pm

aristide1 wrote:OK, maybe now I've seen everything.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FR5MjzHn ... re=related

Ummm, maybe not.

This is what happens when incredibly stupid people report the news. The real story is here.

Michael Sandstrom · Post by **Michael Sandstrom** » Mon Apr 14, 2008 10:27 pm

You know that Fox will never retract the false story that supported their anti-immigrant agenda. Fox News--Your source for fair and balanced truthiness!

Trip · Post by **Trip** » Thu Apr 17, 2008 7:21 am

FOX just pretends to care about this.

In one breath it's praising outsourcing and mass immigration, and in the next lamenting that the recent immigrants aren't speaking English... what a crock.

FOX hates Americans.

aristide1 · Post by **aristide1** » Sun Apr 20, 2008 4:20 pm

Trip wrote:FOX just pretends to care about this.

In one breath it's praising outsourcing and mass immigration, and in the next lamenting that the recent immigrants aren't speaking English... what a crock.

FOX hates Americans.

Why state the obvious if Bluefront isn't here? Nobody else needs it.

http://programmersguild.blogspot.com/20 ... ow-to.html

Here's a sample of what corporations are really all about. Except for Bill Gates personally no corporation has called for an end of the H-1B program, because it's not about the shortage of high tech people, it's about the shortage of cheap high tech people. For any job there are 4 pay scales, based on experience and knowledge, besides pay in the area. Where do just about all the imported employees fall? At the very bottom, so much for the need for really technical people. Worldwide companies would have no problem bringing in people at the upper end, but they don't. They are full of crap, which they keep feeding to the politicians, who love eating it up.

America used to be about the people. What the hell happened?

I sent this link to my old economics professor and said "Welcome to the American version of capitalism." Oddly, he did not respond.

oldabelincoln · Post by **oldabelincoln** » Sun Apr 20, 2008 6:05 pm

aristide1 wrote:Here's a sample of what corporations are really all about. Except for Bill Gates personally no corporation has called for an end of the H-1B program, because it's not about the shortage of high tech people, it's about the shortage of cheap high tech people. For any job there are 4 pay scales, based on experience and knowledge, besides pay in the area. Where do just about all the imported employees fall? At the very bottom, so much for the need for really technical people. Worldwide companies would have no problem bringing in people at the upper end, but they don't. They are full of crap, which they keep feeding to the politicians, who love eating it up.

America used to be about the people. What the hell happened?

Aristide is on the mark. The H1B program used to allow professionals with unusual skills to stay in the US. I wrote my share of H1B justifications and job descriptions in the 80s and early 90s, one person at a time. Now it's become a mass source of cheap technical labor of modest accpomplishment and competency - the cannon fodder of the tech industry. Instead of employing high cost US citizens, it's on-shore offshoring, with the off-shore cheap labor brought here.

How in the world do they expect to get American kids interested in science and technology majors when they've turned those jobs into low paying guest worker jobs? And, if somehow, you are foolish enough to want to mess around with technology, you can be sure that you'll be out of a job once you start earning too much.

The current H1B program now means that unless a US citizen has very unusual skills, his job will go to an H1B person at half the salary. talk about ironic...

aristide1 · Post by **aristide1** » Sun Apr 20, 2008 6:38 pm

My email to H-1Billary.

Here a video of what the H-1B program is really all about, a program support by H-1Billary as well as McCain.

http://programmersguild.blogspot.com/20 ... ow-to.html

Politicans are proving themselves to be nothing more than corporate stooges, totally unable to think for themselves. If any of them could think they would allow anyone to work in this country instead of supporting this highly unethical corporate subsidy. But then what politician didn't subsidsize his contributors? Hillary is clearly more of the same, the only difference is which corporate lobbyists send the money.

Get a clue a toss the H-1B program in the garbage. Like the well intentioned 401K, meant to augment the pensions of the people but used to justify dropping defined pension plans, this program has been corrupted into a high tech low wage benefit. Politicians just won't think passed the ballot box, will they? I guess there's no money in that.

And it's a great reason to justify not bothering to get an education, with outsourcing and H-1Bs ready to take your job at any moment, why would anybody bother?

Cohen and Grigsby have become the American symbol of capitalism. Now all ordinary people can be taken advantage of by American corporate greed, not just Americans. But why am I complaining to the very people who accept money for those same corporations? Me stupid.

Be sure to go back on TV and defend your ridiculous position, it adds the real credibility to all your arguments that is so richly deserved.

aristide1 · Post by **aristide1** » Sun Apr 20, 2008 6:44 pm

In America every child can grow up to be smarter than the president.

1. Most of them already are.

2. What does that say about the people who still support GWB?

Post by **NeilBlanchard** » Sun Apr 20, 2008 6:44 pm

But, we're not bitter, are we?!

aristide1 · Post by **aristide1** » Sun Apr 20, 2008 6:47 pm

NeilBlanchard wrote:But, we're not bitter, are we?!

Bitter is but the thinking digestion of an electrical signal. Synaptic activity.

Perhaps that explains why people who still support GWB are not bitter?

English isn't going to cut it according to OR politicians.

English isn't going to cut it according to OR politicians.

Re: English isn't going to cut it according to OR politician