A delicate question

[N7SC]

The question that I have pasted in below has been asked on a number of forums. It is pretty touchy, but still respectful, and has an innocence about it that really begs some consideration. Especially with what we are being "sold" on this topic during this election season. Here goes, along with my thoughts on it:

Is being captured by your enemy, being tortured, physically and possibly mentally, and confessing to the transgressions of your country a reason to be referred to as a war hero?
Shouldn't a hero have to perform something "heroic"?

While I never gave it any thought until I saw it worded that way, upon some thought, I now have to answer the first question by saying "That may be strong or brave, but not heroic."

And the second by "Yes."

[tehfire]

Perhaps the act of being tortured is not heroic, but coming back to the United States and working an entire career to stop torture and save PoWs is. I'm most likely not going to vote for McCain in the upcoming election, but I do think that the work he has done to try and stop abuses against humanity deserves recognition.

[m0002a]

Lets call spade a spade. Those who question McCain's military record, and whether or not he was a hero, etc., are his political opponents. The vast majority of people know what happened to him while he was a POW, and are quite aware that he did not receive the Congressional Medal of Honor for heroism. No one is being "sold" anything.

So the question you are asking is not being by asked by someone who really wants to know, rather it is meant to be diminish him in some way with thinly veiled comments like "confessing to the transgressions of your country (which 99% of the other tortured POW's did also)".

I suppose in your army/movement you consider yourself a hero for posting this trash. But I just consider that to be dirty politics.

BTW, did you know that when the North Vietnamese found out McCain's father had been put in command of the US Naval forces in the area, they offered to release him? McCain refused, saying he would not leave until all the other POW's who were captured before him were also freed.

Would you have done that? I think I can say with resounding certainty that the answer is: No.

[aristide1]

You assume too much. The question can be asked in reference to all others that have been through such an ordeal. They also count.

However, while simple being tortured may not meet the textbook definition of heroic (would that be to place yourself in danger to help someone else?), I did read where he was to be released, and he questioned his captors about those who were there before him and if they were being released. Under those circumstances, I would call that clearly heroic, if the account is correct.

Of course you can eventually evolve into a flip-flopper anyway. (I'm not the one who made that personal trait so evil. That was our C student leader.)

Also - I find it odd so many veterans are coming to McCain's aid now. There didn't seem to be so many backing up Kerry. Was he less of a veteran, or do one's politics control the determination of who's worthwhile or not? Not the kind of equality I would expect from a real American.

[m0002a]

Also - I find it odd so many veterans are coming to McCain's aid now. There didn't seem to be so many backing up Kerry. Was he less of a veteran, or do one's politics control the determination of who's worthwhile or not? Not the kind of equality I would expect from a real American.

I don't think that very many voters (if any) are going to vote for McCain because they think he is war hero. Believe it or not, having watched 100% of the Keating Five Senate hearings years ago, I am far more impressed by what he did in that situation (refusing to help Keating and telling him to f-off), especially compared to the other 4 senators.

Regarding Kerry, he went to Vietnam for one reason, to get elected when he came back. He was strongly against the war before he went. Kerry received three purple hearts for being wounded in combat, which entitled him to come home. However there is very strong evidence that one incident was not for an injury in combat. I don’t believe that any of his injuries were even remotely serious.

[yefi]

Am I alone in my disappointment that, having read the title, no mention of haemorrhoids was made at all?

Re: By itself being captured by your enemy doesn't make you a hero, it makes you unlucky.

[xan_user]

Making through the years of hardship being a POW takes heroics. Does that make you a war hero? No, that would take a heroic feat in battle.


'imo'

[aristide1]

Well as McCain was covered recently in "The Economist" I must agree with them. No to Bush 3, yes to McCain 1.

People change.

[m0002a]

Am I alone in my disappointment that, having read the title, no mention of haemorrhoids was made at all?

Re: By itself being captured by your enemy doesn't make you a hero, it makes you unlucky.

I don't think it was a matter of luck. Not many soldiers volunteer to fly planes off the deck of an aircraft carrier and fly bombing runs into anti-aircraft fire. Also, I don't think he was required to fly that many (23) sorties.

Here is brief history of his service record:

McCain requested a combat assignment, and was assigned to the aircraft carrier USS Forrestal flying A-4 Skyhawks. His combat duty began when he was 30 years old, in summer 1967, when Forrestal was assigned to a bombing campaign during the Vietnam War.

By then a lieutenant commander, McCain was almost killed on July 29, 1967, when he was near the center of the Forrestal fire. He escaped from his burning jet and was trying to help another pilot escape when a bomb exploded; McCain was struck in the legs and chest by fragments. The ensuing fire killed 134 sailors and took 24 hours to control.[28][29] With the Forrestal out of commission, McCain volunteered for assignment with the USS Oriskany.

John McCain's capture and subsequent imprisonment began on October 26, 1967. He was flying his 23rd bombing mission over North Vietnam, when his A-4E Skyhawk was shot down by a missile over Hanoi. McCain fractured both arms and a leg, and then nearly drowned, when he parachuted into Truc Bach Lake in Hanoi. After he regained consciousness, some North Vietnamese pulled him ashore, then others crushed his shoulder with a rifle butt and bayoneted him. McCain was then transported to Hanoi's main Hoa Lo Prison, nicknamed the "Hanoi Hilton".

Although McCain was badly wounded, his captors refused to treat his injuries, instead beating and interrogating him to get information, and he was given medical care only when the North Vietnamese discovered that his father was a top admiral.His status as a prisoner of war (POW) made the front pages of major newspapers.

McCain spent six weeks in the hospital while receiving marginal care. By then having lost 50 pounds (23 kg), in a chest cast, and with his hair turned white, McCain was sent to a different camp on the outskirts of Hanoi[37] in December 1967, into a cell with two other Americans who did not expect him to live a week. In March 1968, McCain was put into solitary confinement, where he remained for two more years.

In mid–1968, McCain's father was named commander of all U.S. forces in the Vietnam theater, and McCain was offered early release. The North Vietnamese made that offer because they wanted to appear merciful for propaganda purposes, and also wanted to show other POWs that elite prisoners like McCain were willing to be treated preferentially. McCain turned down the offer of repatriation; he would only accept the offer if every man taken in before him was released as well. Such early release was prohibited by the military's Code of Conduct. To prevent the enemy from using prisoners for propaganda, officers were to agree to be released in the order in which they were captured.

In August 1968, a program of severe torture began on McCain. He was subjected to rope bindings and repeated beatings every two hours, at the same time as he was suffering from dysentery. Further injuries led to the beginning of a suicide attempt, which was stopped by guards. After four days, McCain made an anti-American propaganda "confession".

[aristide1]

From what we've seen here the RNC seems to have a more subtle form of brainwashing. More effective, too.

[jhhoffma]

However, while simple being tortured may not meet the textbook definition of heroic (would that be to place yourself in danger to help someone else?), I did read where he was to be released, and he questioned his captors about those who were there before him and if they were being released. Under those circumstances, I would call that clearly heroic, if the account is correct.

I would agree with this statement. I always found that to be the defining thing about what we know of his experience as a POW.

However, the term "hero" is thrown around so much lately (since 9/11) that the meaning is becoming diluted. After 9/11 the NYPD and NYFD were called heroes (rightfully so) but then it began trickling down to all PD's and FD's. I certainly wouldn't call every officer or firefighter I've met a hero. Most of them are guys who don't do much else but write speeding tickets or respond to CO-detector alarms. Not exactly the stuff of legend.

My father earned a Bronze Star in Vietnam for saving the life of his "idiot Lieutenant" as he always put it. He never went into detail of that experience and I only found the whole truth about it last summer when he died and I put out his medals for a display. Packaged in with the medals was a local newspaper clipping that my mother had saved detailing the incident. He was always a hero to me, but to most he was just Jack or the "truck driver".

I'm a little more sensitive to the issue of questioning a veteran's heroism/patriotism/account/etc than most, due to my daddy issues. However, I still don't get why this is addressed in this fashion. Is the debate whether or not this happened? It must be, because I don't know how we can call a soldier being sent off to war in Iraq or Afghanistan for the first time a hero and not someone who served in Vietnam past their tour date and was a POW for many years as a result.

[aristide1]

Perhaps what you're seeing now is the result of the loss of positive role models in this country. Anyone who can actually stay on the path of decency and ethical behavior sticks out so much they are now our heroes.

Newpapers run stories about people returning wallets, has such a feat become that uncommon?

Much like the way leadership has devolved. Now blind stubborness is a leadership trait. And "Yee-Haw!" is a foreign policy.

[yefi]

I don't think it was a matter of luck. Not many soldiers volunteer to fly planes off the deck of an aircraft carrier and fly bombing runs into anti-aircraft fire. Also, I don't think he was required to fly that many (23) sorties.

The act of volunteering can be heroic, especially if the odds are stacked up against you, but being captured certainly is not, nor is it a precondition of the former--as if our decisions at some point in the past became heroic when we experienced their worst outcomes.

Not referring to McCain once, I see you have given me his service record. I was aware of his conduct as a POW, which I find very admirable, indeed, it could be said heroic.

[m0002a]

I thought it was obvious that the case in question in this thread had to do with McCain. Here is why I thought so:

The question that I have pasted in below has been asked on a number of forums. It is pretty touchy, but still respectful, and has an innocence about it that really begs some consideration. Especially with what we are being "sold" on this topic during this election season...

[xan_user]

I thought it was obvious that the case in question in this thread had to do with McCain. Here is why I thought so:

The question that I have pasted in below has been asked on a number of forums. It is pretty touchy, but still respectful, and has an innocence about it that really begs some consideration. Especially with what we are being "sold" on this topic during this election season...

Sorry I still dont see McCain in the original post nor in the pasted quote.


Where did you see his name mentioned?

I understand now that most of the info you post is enhanced. ( where is my salt splitter, so I can take your posts with a piece of a grain of salt.)

I'm fairly certain, re-reading the first post, the OP wasn't looking for a essay on the history of John McCain. Nice .

The question that I have pasted in below has been asked on a number of forums. It is pretty touchy, but still respectful, and has an innocence about it that really begs some consideration. Especially with what we are being "sold" on this topic during this election season. Here goes, along with my thoughts on it:

Is being captured by your enemy, being tortured, physically and possibly mentally, and confessing to the transgressions of your country a reason to be referred to as a war hero?
Shouldn't a hero have to perform something "heroic"?

While I never gave it any thought until I saw it worded that way, upon some thought, I now have to answer the first question by saying "That may be strong or brave, but not heroic."

And the second by "Yes."

The question is just a valid for those sitting in Git mo right?


How about those at Abu Ghraib?

[m0002a]

I'm fairly certain, re-reading the first post, the OP wasn't looking for a essay on the history of John McCain. Nice.

You are correct that the OP wasn't looking for a history of John McCain’s military service, but I am quite certain he was referring to McCain in his thinly-veiled swipe at him. I don't mind spirited discussion with people who strongly disagree with me, but don't insult my intelligence with the claim that this thread is not about McCain.

Whether or not McCain was a hero is open to debate, but I don't agree that McCain is trying to sell himself as hero either. If his POW experience is presented during the campaign, I don’t see anything wrong with that so long as it is accurate.

It is quite revealing, however, the degree to which some people get upset whenever factual information is presented, even when personal opinions are not included. Given some of the POW stories I saw about McCain, the one I posted is rather low-keyed in explaining his POW experience.

[xan_user]

The question is just a valid for those sitting in Git mo right?


How about those at Abu Ghraib?

Its odd how some people have such a self cetered POV that they dont relize other people exist outside their limited world.

When I think of POW I think of all POW's not just ours.

[aristide1]

I understand now that most of the info you post is enhanced.

I think some addition info is required to understand your use of the word "enhanced" in this context.

[m0002a]

Maybe I am wrong, but I don't think Pam Anderson ever had implants that big. That looks an enhanced photo of her already enhanced breasts.

[m0002a]

Its odd how some people have such a self cetered POV that they dont relize other people exist outside their limited world.

When I think of POW I think of all POW's not just ours.

It's not self-centered. This thread was started by someone claiming to be concerned about the people being sold as war heros during this election season. Like I said, I don't expect you to agree with me on the issues, but don't insult my intelligence.

Nevertheless, it is pretty stupid to compare what happened to US POW's in Vietnam with what the US did to prisoners from Iraq and Afghanistan.

[xan_user]

Its odd how some people have such a self cetered POV that they dont relize other people exist outside their limited world.

When I think of POW I think of all POW's not just ours.

It's not self-centered. This thread was started by someone claiming to be concerned about the people being sold as war heros during this election season. Like I said, I don't expect you to agree with me on the issues, but don't insult my intelligence.

Nevertheless, it is pretty stupid to compare what happened to US POW's in Vietnam with what the US did to prisoners from Iraq and Afghanistan.

I only compare because to the known pows because the hidden pows from this conflict have no voice yet, or may never.
If you honestly don't think the USA knows how to hide their true atrocities by now, I want some of what your smoking!(but only a little)

[m0002a]

I only compare because to the known pows because the hidden pows from this conflict have no voice yet, or may never.
If you honestly don't think the USA knows how to hide their true atrocities by now, I want some of what your smoking!(but only a little)

There are atrocities on all sides in every war, including the war that freed the slaves. War itself is an atrocity.

But I honestly don't think that what happened to the POWs held by the US fall into that category. The atrocities occured against those who are no longer alive.

[L2GX]

I can't find if McCain every did any night landings on a carrier, but they're supposed to be about the scariest thing you can do. They actually measured the stress levels, and that was it.

That aside, I don't like the military, I certainly don't like bombers. But I'm not pushing my ideological interpretation on the word 'hero'. For 90% of the worlds population a 'Hero' someone who eats the babies of the other side, raw off the bayonet.

And after a few bombs blew up on deck when McCain was prepping, and killed about 150 people, not to mention nearly him, at least he had the decency to feel ambiguous about what he was doing. Then again he did keep it up.

So while I like peacenik Obama over baby-killer McCain, I don't like people re-defining the meaning of words just because it suits their political conviction.

forgot the conclusion

I'd say he's a war hero.

[dragmor]

Being a POW = Not a hero

Being given the opportunity to leave by your captors (due to family status) and CHOOSING to stick to the military's Code of Conduct in regards to the order of prisoner release = close to Hero.

[KlaymenDK]

Is being captured by your enemy, being tortured, physically and possibly mentally, and confessing to the transgressions of your country a reason to be referred to as a war hero?
Shouldn't a hero have to perform something "heroic"?

While I never gave it any thought until I saw it worded that way, upon some thought, I now have to answer the first question by saying "That may be strong or brave, but not heroic."

And the second by "Yes."

I definitely agree with your 2nd answer, but not your first one.

Being a POW makes you neither strong nor brave, it makes you unfortunate. If you confess to things as a consequence of torture, I'd say you're less of all three.

Now, if you're subjected to torture and don't give in, that might imply that you are in fact strong and brave, and might well make you a hero (which is basically another way of phrasing answer #2).

Caveat: I'm not a USian, and this is an exceptionally objective reflection on the wording. The subject is quite horrible and should not be belittled.

[andyb]

The true nature of a Hero means that they rarely ever call themselves a hero, how many of you have seen "Band of Brothers" or documentaries involving "real heroes" and how many of those people did you see calling themselves Hero's.

By definition people who do something Heroic usually fall into the following categories:

1.) Because its their job (Fireman, Policeman, Lifeboatman, Military, its pretty routine stuff for them, but Heroic by definition to most people).

2.) They did something Heroic on impulse (i.e. they didnt think about the consequences).

3.) Or because they went out of their way to do something greater and better than anyone else around them, this can be applied to both 1, and 2 above, but is usually done by someone who did what they did knowing the full repercussions and dangers before they did their Heroic deed.

Firemen accross the world do Heroic things on a regular basis, but because its their "job" to do Heroic things they are rarely ever called Heroes until they fall into category 3, but an ordinary person who snatches a kid out of the middle of a road before being hit by a bus will be called a Hero, but will probably play it down stating "I did what anyone would do, I'm not a Hero".

John McCain is not a Hero for going to war, getting captured and being tortured, but he certainly deserves a pat on the back for staying behind when he could have been freed. That shows a degree of Heroism by giving his fellow prisoners a pshycological boost and helping their morale, but overall I would not call him a Hero for that.

Even if I believed that was enough to call him a Hero, he should always play that down through the media as it would make people like him more as he is being modest about his actions. Playing up Heroism whether real or phoney is always a bad move as it makes the person look like a pompous arse.


Andy

[yefi]

I thought it was obvious that the case in question in this thread had to do with McCain. Here is why I thought so:

If A is in B, and C is in B, C need not necessarily be in A.