US Presidential Election 2008 thread

jaganath · Post by **jaganath** » Sun Nov 02, 2008 11:46 am

ISTR there was a thread devoted to the last lot of US elections, so seems only right and proper we should continue the tradition. just to clarify, this is not a thread asking how people are going to vote (or have already voted), although of course you are free to disclose this information if you wish. this is just one of those random threads for which the O-T forum is the only sensible home, where any and all musings with even a tangential connection to the current US elections can be aired. what do you think about the current elections? do you even care? for non-US board members, are they even relevant? do euros have any right to take sides in what is supposedly an all-American affair? could Europe's rampant Obama-mania hurt his chances in the race for the White House?

the answers to all these questions, and many more, are fully welcome in this thread, it goes without saying any flame wars will be hastily extinguished by the mods, I think we all know political discussions can get heated but I may say that SPCRers as a bunch tend to be level-headed enough not to get drawn into these.

Reachable · Post by **Reachable** » Sun Nov 02, 2008 2:33 pm

jaganath, do you find that interest is high in the UK?

Greg F. · Post by **Greg F.** » Sun Nov 02, 2008 3:00 pm

"could Europe's rampant Obama-mania hurt his chances in the race for the White House?"
According to the girl from South Carolina, most US Americans don't own maps so they can't find Europe and don't know what it is. Seriously, I can't think of one person who pays attention to what Europe thinks about our candidates. We are too concerned with the economy right here.
And I think you have every right to comment on the US election as it will affect Euros. International relations, adventuresome wars, world economy, value of the dollar, all of that.
IMHO, the only way McSame wins is voter fraud and stealing the election. I put nothing beyond Rovian politics. Nothing. In case you haven't guessed, I hate Dick Cheney and his puppet Bush with a passion. They have screwed this country up for generations.

FartingBob · Post by **FartingBob** » Sun Nov 02, 2008 3:23 pm

Theres a fair bit of interest in this election in the UK, although id say not as much as last time (probably because most people dont know much about the candidates, wheras we sure knew how much of an idiot Bush was in '04).

Ive yet to find someone here who wants McCain to win though.

klankymen · Post by **klankymen** » Sun Nov 02, 2008 3:34 pm

Well, I already sent in my ballot last tuesday.

I'm already very curious as to how the election will turn out.... it's very hard for me to predict at the moment.

Unfortunately I don't have a TV at the moment... maybe I can find a pub showing CNN

andyb · Post by **andyb** » Sun Nov 02, 2008 3:45 pm

If I were American, I would be voting for Obama.

McCain seems to be OK, but has picked a nutcase as his second. Obama seems to be a more sensible man if for thast reason alone - but most importantly seems to have a better understanding of the Wars that America has got itself into that the rest of the world dislikes, and can hopeful change America's fortunes before it is too late.

Apart from that I know hardly anything about them or their views or policies, but I expect Obama to win in the "Popular Vote" (and the strange thing that happens in the US that actually decides who wins). Even if I am wrong it would be difficult to imagine that McCain would be worse than the cockjockey in charge right now.

Andy

klankymen · Post by **klankymen** » Sun Nov 02, 2008 3:50 pm

andyb wrote:McCain seems to be OK, but has picked a nutcase as his second.

Most people seem to think (and I agree) that Palin is a nutcase. I wonder if that can cost McCain the win....

aristide1 · Post by **aristide1** » Sun Nov 02, 2008 5:56 pm

andyb wrote:McCain seems to be OK, but has picked a nutcase as his second.

Andy

What makes you think he had anything to do with the "choice?"

I've heard so many reasons for not picking Obama here from conservatives. The problem I see is this high hurdle wasn't used when picking W in 2000. Come to think of it, W must have had the most experience under his belt in 2004, if your entire argument is experience, and yet look at the outcome.

Reminds me of the days many years ago a chimp was picking stocks better than the experts.

Ultimately since the public cast Ron Paul aside early on I suspect that the whole thing will turn out exactly the way The Who described it.

Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.

andyb · Post by **andyb** » Sun Nov 02, 2008 6:11 pm

What makes you think he had anything to do with the "choice?"

I've heard so many reasons for not picking Obama here from conservatives. The problem I see is this high hurdle wasn't used when picking W in 2000. Come to think of it, W must have had the most experience under his belt in 2004, if your entire argument is experience, and yet look at the outcome. Shocked

I would hope he did, but then again the only people I distrust more than "My" politicians is other peoples, I can easily believe you are right.

I have alays been a "Conservative" voter, but they are a different breed over here.

If experience was everything then McCain would be ahead in al of the polls, I expect he has more experience than Obama in just about everything.

Andy

aristide1 · Post by **aristide1** » Sun Nov 02, 2008 6:43 pm

There is something that happens when one needs to make a clear decision, weighing both sides of an argument, as one should, but then letting it go on and on, partially because there is so much at stake, large ramifications to both sides of the argument, and TMI. I don't know the actual term for it, but my friends refer to it as paralysis through analysis.

Some might think the Iraq war is the opposite of that, but premeditated ignorance of the facts that do not suit one's agenda is not the opposite of "paralysis through analysis". I am not sure the exact term for this situation either.

Saw some "conservatives" with signs Saturday. There were 4 "Pros" on the signs. Two I don't recall because the other two left me confused; Pro-life and Pro-gun. It would have been cheaper to print signs that say

"I am a walking oxymoron."

And after the elections all the "O"s give them more targets to shoot at. But what do I know? Around here the conservatives hate conservation.

Please don't conclude that the other party is lacking in its own share of whackos. They are simply a different type of whacko.

andyb · Post by **andyb** » Sun Nov 02, 2008 7:01 pm

Saw some "conservatives" with signs Saturday. There were 4 "Pros" on the signs. Two I don't recall because the other two left me confused; Pro-life and Pro-gun. It would have been cheaper to print signs that say

"I am a walking oxymoron."

Thats classic stupidity, I have always been against the "average" person having guns, because there are a huge amount of "average" idiots, and "Average" nutcases. I do understand why the pro-gun crowd also say pro-life, its not that different from my belief that giving food aid to Africa is pointless on its own, but if you add more than just the aid/gun it will make it right and work. The reality though is very different, it wont work because its on its own and is far from ideal.

To be honest I dont know what seperates the 2 US parties, they like all politicians will say, war, crime, education, health, economy, etc etc, but those 2 parties will have those in a different order, and go about them in a different way. That is the simplest way I can state what I mean, please tell me how you se the 2 US parties, and also state which site you vote for so that I can re-skew your reality to my reality.

Andy

nutball · Post by **nutball** » Mon Nov 03, 2008 12:33 am

The whole process seems hugely drawn out compared to general elections in other western democracies.

I mean I can understand that the US is a big country, and I can understand the appeal of thinking that the decision needs to be taken carefully because the US president is the most powerful man/woman in the world. But it takes the thick end of two years, *and* it's not at all clear that most people really end up voting based on careful consideration of the relative merits anyway.

thejamppa · Post by **thejamppa** » Mon Nov 03, 2008 2:18 am

U.S. Prediential election TV shows are hybrid of Survivor / Big Brother + Bold and The Beautiful that takes place every four years.

As of current race, there really is no much different who becomes president: Neither will keep their election promises. Troops will stay in Iraq and Afghanistan for while yet and wether its Obama or McCain both will take pretty 180 degree's in US outer policy after Bush. Neither wants to be remembered about as second GWB jr.

That means less gun slinging is promised anyway. That is only ceertain things as America is growing war weary and both candidates know that.

Post by **NeilBlanchard** » Mon Nov 03, 2008 3:11 am

Hi,

Please don't make your judgments of the candidates and the election based on commercial TV! I only listen to National Public Radio (Morning Edition, On Point, Here & Now, Talk of the Nation, All Things Considered...), and I watch Public Broadcasting Corporation for my TV news (The News Hour, Frontline & Frontline World, NOVA, POV).

If you are voting in the USA -- please go today and vote your conscience. Can we set a record for turnout? I hope so.

QuietOC · Post by **QuietOC** » Mon Nov 03, 2008 6:29 am

NeilBlanchard wrote:Please don't make your judgments of the candidates and the election based on commercial TV! I only listen to National Public Radio (Morning Edition, On Point, Here & Now, Talk of the Nation, All Things Considered...), and I watch Public Broadcasting Corporation for my TV news (The News Hour, Frontline & Frontline World, NOVA, POV).

So, you prefer government sponsored media. Great!

The rich left is buying this election even with nearly all the media already in the tank for a candidate that is hard to disinguish from your run-of-the-mill dictator want-to-be.

I am so proud of the "maverick" that same media won for the republicans. Idiocracy is here.

monkiman · Post by **monkiman** » Mon Nov 03, 2008 8:30 am

I was amazed to hear on NPR this morning that early voting in North Carolina was at 41% of registered voters - more than voted in the whole of 2004.

I'd love to see that kind of passion nationwide - I'm an old fashioned guy, I'm going to vote first thing in the morning

Post by **NeilBlanchard** » Mon Nov 03, 2008 9:29 am

QuietOC wrote:
NeilBlanchard wrote:Please don't make your judgments of the candidates and the election based on commercial TV! I only listen to National Public Radio (Morning Edition, On Point, Here & Now, Talk of the Nation, All Things Considered...), and I watch Public Broadcasting Corporation for my TV news (The News Hour, Frontline & Frontline World, NOVA, POV).
So, you prefer government sponsored media. Great!

The Federal government pays ~7% of the budgets for NPR and PBS. Almost half of their budgets are paid for by listeners/viewers. And the rest is paid for by corporate sponsors.

--------------

I would love to see public financing of elections. We the public own the airwaves, and we lease their use to the broadcasting companies, and then we have to pay them to use our own airwaves. Our very democracy depends on this, and it seems crazy to do it like we are -- especially since it lets people with money influence our democracy.

Last time I checked, it is one person, one vote. The amount of money I may want to contribute to a candidate/campaign/party is an action/deed -- it is not my free speech. Otherwise, rich people's "vote/speech" counts for more than someone's who is less rich.

Money corrupts the democratic process; so we the voters should support the democratic process, so that the rich cannot have a corrupting influence.

Tzupy · Post by **Tzupy** » Mon Nov 03, 2008 9:41 am

The polls as I write this are clearly showing that Obama is winning. Well, I expected that, since I believe McCain is too good to become President.
I hoped to see him President 8 years ago, but unfortunately he lost the nomination to Dubya.
Probably the US people didn't deserve him back then and still don't deserve him.
I'd like to point out that the world's balance is in a fragile state, partly due to Bush's limited intellect, but also due to other factors.
Iran and North Korea are unsolved issues, the war in Afghanistan is undecided, Russia is clearly returning to dictatorship, and communist China is continuing the aggresive military build-up.
To me Obama seems a bad choice for the future of the world, I think he'll mess up the little order we have now.

QuietOC · Post by **QuietOC** » Mon Nov 03, 2008 10:01 am

NeilBlanchard wrote:Money corrupts the democratic process; so we the voters should support the democratic process, so that the rich cannot have a corrupting influence.

It sounds like McCain should be your candidate.

From what I see the want-to-be-dictator is supported by the rich elite and by promises to the ignorant to give other people's money to them.

I am poor, and I don't want anyone else's money. I want freedom and liberty. Maybe these are impossible in our "democracy".

Well-intentioned dictators can only take those away.

aristide1 · Post by **aristide1** » Mon Nov 03, 2008 10:01 am

If voting could change the system it would be outlawed.

Graffiti in Montreal 22 years ago.

aristide1 · Post by **aristide1** » Mon Nov 03, 2008 10:14 am

Greg F. wrote:"According to the girl from South Carolina, most US Americans don't own maps so they can't find Europe and don't know what it is. Seriously, I can't think of one person who pays attention to what Europe thinks about our candidates. We are too concerned with the economy right here.

US citizens are like that all the time, good times or bad, and that's why I have to read The Economist. It may not be perfect but it's better than what we have passing for news.

Greg F. wrote: IMHO, the only way McSame wins is voter fraud and stealing the election. I put nothing beyond Rovian politics. Nothing. In case you haven't guessed, I hate Dick Cheney and his puppet Bush with a passion. They have screwed this country up for generations.

Has anyone ever figured out how W talks and Cheney's lips don't move? Seriously who would have imagined the US being a puppet regime?

Speaking of male bovine excrement Bill O'Reilly has a new $10 million
contract. No wonder the farms here are so green.

aristide1 · Post by **aristide1** » Mon Nov 03, 2008 10:29 am

To be honest I don't know what separates the 2 US parties, they like all politicians will say, war, crime, education, health, economy, etc etc, but those 2 parties will have those in a different order, and go about them in a different way. That is the simplest way I can state what I mean, please tell me how you see the 2 US parties, and also state which site you vote for so that I can re-skew your reality to my reality.

I wish you luck with that.

Neither party will do what it takes to get the job done. How they fail is all that separates them.

A democrat may see a people situation that requires attention. They start a program for that situation. It is riddled with corruption because they didn't write a pragmatic and thoroughly researched bill. Some money goes to the cause, but not so much. Their solution to that is to throw more money at it.

The republican comes along and gets rid of the program. The fraud is temporarily halted (as the crooks scatter to find the next way to make money). The underlying problem / people situation remains and gets worse.

Now if it was a corporate problem perhaps the parties would be reversed, but the same thing would still happen.

As just a voter there are 2 types of promises made to us by politicians; those that never intended to keep and those that could not keep even if they tried. What comes first (and probably only) are the lobbyists and the political contributors. The rest are thoroughly expendable.

On a smaller scale this is what happens locally. The intersection near my house has a traffic light. The law allows right turn on red after stopping. Cars from outside the neighborhood use my little street and light as a bypass to the 2 main intersections that get clogged with traffic. They drive way too fast and never stop at the red light.

The town addresses this by putting up signs that say "No turn on red." This is the easy way to handle the situation, but it punishes the entire neighborhood, especially the ones that followed the law and drive wisely. No one is willing to do what it takes to stop the lawbreakers. Meanwhile on some of the wider streets in town where people speed all the time the streets are being modified to make them narrower with dividers, to slow all traffic down. Again, this hurts everyone that doesn't do anything wrong, while failing to fine or punish the problem drivers.

We have an "arterial" road running through town. The police and the people living along the road want the traffic to obey the law, but no matter how many tickets they have handed out the speed remains the same. As far as I am concerned this should become the main method of collecting money (really small towns do just this) but since these same drivers fight tickets they clog the courts so enforcement is not as high as it should be.

This is how things are done in the US today. I would call for a national fine system over a national tax system, but nobody listens to me. Certainly no shortages of arses here.

The only other way for a problem to be adequately addressed is when it ends up on 60 Minutes, and even then.

I didn't vote for either party. While the only change that will occur is that the CEO of Halliburton will no longer be running the show, we really won't know if that will make any difference.

Post by **NeilBlanchard** » Mon Nov 03, 2008 6:31 pm

http://www.truthout.org/110308R

Last Friday, a federal court judge in Cleveland, Ohio, ordered Michael Connell, an information-technology consultant to the McCain '08 campaign, to give a deposition in a court proceeding. Mr. Connell, whose firm, GovTech Solutions, built Ohio's 2004 election results computer network, was in a position to have knowledge about the alleged manipulation of electronic voting results in that presidential contest (a technique known as "flipping") in order to switch the winner in Ohio from Sen. John Kerry to President Bush. The deposition is scheduled to take place today, November 3, one day before the 2008 general election.

The first Democratic president, Thomas Jefferson, said that "eternal vigilance is the price of liberty." The failure of the Bush administration to permit systematic reform of this nation's elections infrastructure so as to make it impossible for these manipulations to occur is bad enough. Even worse would be to refuse to take seriously the possibility that these abuses could alter or adulterate the results of what may well be the most important presidential election of our lifetimes.

AZBrandon · Post by **AZBrandon** » Mon Nov 03, 2008 7:56 pm

I'm excited to see who Obama sells out first, and to point out his presidency is just 4 more years of the Bush policy of "Tax less, spend more, crank up the deficit to a trillion." Who would have figured that the policy of both candidates was exactly the same as the current administration?

Post by **MikeC** » Mon Nov 03, 2008 10:10 pm

It would be a shame for the republicans to get yet another 4 years. For that alone, I'd vote Obama if I could... but that's not the only reason. It's important to realize that whoever wins, Americans are fundamentally middle or right of middle, politically, methinks. It's not all like Europe where labour / left govts have had a long tradition -- ditto parts of Canada. In the US, the only thing left about the opposition to the mainstream right is that they're being call left by the mainstream right. In such a context, any president, even one with a very reformist approach, would quickly be forced to move more to the middle, to work with both parties in order to get things done. Hence, even with the most well-intentioned, honorable president, there will be perceived "sellouts" -- whoever winds.

Post by **NeilBlanchard** » Tue Nov 04, 2008 2:02 am

Hello,

If you are voting in the USA -- please go today and vote your conscience. Can we set a record for turnout? I hope so.

Aren't sure where to go? Google has a great little tool to tell you where you need to go- just plug in your home address (or wherever you are registered to vote).

Not registered to vote? Some states allow you to register on election day. Go to the aforementioned link and Google will also tell you if you can register.

If you have problems, like with faulty voting machines, and aren't taken seriously at your polling station, contact the Lawyer's Committee for Civil Rights Election Protection Hotline, at 866 OUR VOTE. The ACLU is another good place to turn to, at 877 523 2792.

For the majority of us, the biggest hurdle is just getting out there in the first place. Wake up! It is time to vote! Make your voice heard!

On your way to vote, call your local friends, family, and neighbors. Take them with you. If you can, spend your day helping (reminding, driving, giving directions) to people.

All power to you!

aristide1 · Post by **aristide1** » Tue Nov 04, 2008 8:42 am

There was a saying here years ago that met with limited popularity. It accurately predicts the results of the this election and all elections to come.

The rat race is over. Rats won.

Does that seem harsh? Well it should.

Know what happened in March 1992? A man won the highest honor that the US can give a civilian. The Presidential Medal of Freedom. Now what did this man do? Call for human rights? Overthrown a tyrant? Bring peace to war torn nations? Did he save countless lives from a fire or flood at great peril to himself? Create a car that gets 100 mpg? Cure arthritis? Alzheimers? Malaria? The common cold? What could he have possibly done to get such an honor?

Well here it is, George H W Bush gave this highest award to none other than Sam Walton.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sam_Walton

aristide1 · Post by **aristide1** » Tue Nov 04, 2008 8:49 am

QuietOC wrote:The rich left is buying this election even with nearly all the media already in the tank for a candidate that is hard to disinguish from your run-of-the-mill dictator want-to-be.

Are you equally upset about Rupert Murdoch and his multi-billion political propaganda machine? He doesn't even have to send any money to anyone, he just churns out his "objective opinion" and gathers as many sheep as he possibly can. Why don't you add up what he has spent on his party? We'll trust you with the numbers.

xan_user · Post by **xan_user** » Tue Nov 04, 2008 9:01 am

There's an election?

I really should start paying more attention....

QuietOC · Post by **QuietOC** » Tue Nov 04, 2008 9:24 am

aristide1 wrote:Are you equally upset about Rupert Murdoch and his multi-billion political propaganda machine?

I am with G. K. Chesterton in that the strength of democracy is in its vulgarity.

Chesterton - All Things Considered wrote:The whole error in both cases lies in the fact that the refined persons are attacking politics and journalism on the ground of vulgarity. Of course, politics and journalism are, as it happens, very vulgar. But their vulgarity is not the worst thing about them. Things are so bad with both that by this time their vulgarity is the best thing about them. Their vulgarity is at least a noisy thing; and their great danger is that silence that always comes before decay. The conversational persuasion at elections is perfectly human and rational; it is the silent persuasions that are utterly damnable.

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