Looking for a Disc eraser

[thejamppa]

Hi!

I am looking a disc eraser program that is relatively simple to use to format one of my older HDD's, so I can give it to my friend who needs new HDD. I know you can recover almost any data but I am looking a some software that does better job that jnwindows formatting and makes programs like Recuva and other easy to use recovery softwares pretty useless.

[Shamgar]

thejamppa: to securely erase a disk by software means, you need to use a block wiping tool, of which there are many, or you can use a not well known tool called HDDErase. It is developed by University of California Center for Magnetic Recording Research. Most hard drives made after 2001 have a built in security firmware which HDDErase activates to completely erase the drive in considerably less time than a block wiping tool. It will also rid the drive of partition information, boot sectors and locked system files that common block wiping tools cannot. The downside is that you must get HDDErase to recognise the drive on either the Primary or Secondary IDE channels only. You need to change drive's settings in motherboard's BIOS. It will not recognise in SATA mode or any other IDE channels. I tried this on a PATA 40GB drive and it erased in around 15 minutes. Unfortunately, I had some trouble getting new SATA drives to work. Today's high capacity drives may take many hours or even days to be erased, depending on software used and how secure the erase method is.

For block wiping, there is Eraser and Darik's Boot and Nuke, included in Eraser and available also in Ultimate Boot CD (UBCD).

Corrected "Nuke and Boot" to Boot and Nuke

[Riffer]

thejamppa: to securely erase a disk by software means, you need to use a block wiping tool, of which there are many, or you can use a not well known tool called HDDErase. It is developed by University of California Center for Magnetic Recording Research. Most hard drives made after 2001 have a built in security firmware which HDDErase activates to completely erase the drive in considerably less time than a block wiping tool. It will also rid the drive of partition information, boot sectors and locked system files that common block wiping tools cannot. The downside is that you must get HDDErase to recognise the drive on either the Primary or Secondary IDE channels only. You need to change drive's settings in motherboard's BIOS. It will not recognise in SATA mode or any other IDE channels. I tried this on a PATA 40GB drive and it erased in around 15 minutes. Unfortunately, I had some trouble getting new SATA drives to work. Today's high capacity drives may take many hours or even days to be erased, depending on software used and how secure the erase method is.

For block wiping, there is Eraser and Darik's Nuke and Boot, included in Eraser and available also in Ultimate Boot CD (UBCD).

What he said.

[thejamppa]

That Eraser looks good, freeware unde GNU license. My drive is 160 GB Sata Seagate 7200.10. I'll try that Eraser. Thanks a lot guys. I'll probably set off doing erasing in weekend.

[Shamgar]

Darik's Boot and Nuke (DBAN) also has its own site.

I recommend to read the documentation that comes with any erasing software first before you use it. Also, sometimes software gets updated to use with newer drives so check to see what is most suitable.

Corrected "Nuke and Boot" to Boot and Nuke

[fiberchina89]

Very interestingly))) I Will happen here more often))

[sonic6k]

I have question of eraser, I want sell hard disk, but what is likely that world most professional data recovery center can get data back, even 1%?

Question I have is how I can military grade erase hard disk, without physical damage of hard disk, because I want sell hard disk. Also who know maybe I work of federal agent to FBI and send nano camera equipped mosquito to your house?

[lm]

Any linux live cd should be ok for the task.

dd if=/dev/zero of=/dev/something

Where something is the disk device in question.

Permanent, unrecoverable. Beware of doing it to the wrong drive.

Disclaimer: Do at your own risk. What ever happens is not my problem.

[sonic6k]

Any linux live cd should be ok for the task.

dd if=/dev/zero of=/dev/something

Where something is the disk device in question.

Permanent, unrecoverable. Beware of doing it to the wrong drive.

Yes I am aware of LINUX and have installation of DEBIAN LINUX for video editing machine. I hear very much speculation of effectiveness of dd command however, are you sure you will bet your life on it that one can not recover hard disk after dd command? Not even most professional data recovery specialist or FBI? Can be considered TOP SECRET like National Security Agency define?

[nutball]

I hear very much speculation of effectiveness of dd command however, are you sure you will bet your life on it that one can not recover hard disk after dd command? Not even most professional data recovery specialist or FBI? Can be considered TOP SECRET like National Security Agency define?

Errr.... what *have* you got on your hard-drive you're worried about the FBI?!

I suggest reading the documentation page of DBAN (linked in a post above), it links to a couple of academic papers discussing the issue of quite what's required to make data unrecoverable from magnetic and SSD storage.

[sonic6k]

Errr.... what *have* you got on your hard-drive you're worried about the FBI?!

You see, flying mosquito look harmless, but do you know more of mosquito other than it is mosquito?

[Shamgar]

I hear very much speculation of effectiveness of dd command however, are you sure you will bet your life on it that one can not recover hard disk after dd command? Not even most professional data recovery specialist or FBI? Can be considered TOP SECRET like National Security Agency define?

Errr.... what *have* you got on your hard-drive you're worried about the FBI?!

A hard drive should be completely erased before being passed on to another user or physically discarded. Why? I think it is the proper thing to do. It does not mean that one is acting sinisterly and avoiding the authorities. Why do people infer such? However, I do believe that those who use computers to engage in indecent and criminal activity should be found out and prosecuted to the maximum of the law. This is where high level data recovery is warranted and of good use.

For honest, law abiding people with decent family values, an unsecurely deleted hard drive poses serious security issues. Many people use their PCs to manage their businesses, finances and work records which obviously contain plenty of personal and sensitive information. What about family photos, email, study papers, school assignments and creative work that belong to you and you alone? Do you want some pervert/criminal/identity thief/someone with too much time on their hands/corrupt government, law, enforcement authority/a combination of some or all the above to be looking over this information? I certainly don't. If I was getting rid of a hard drive, I would be using as secure a method as I can find and employ.

Thankfully, I found such a method called HDDErase which I linked to and described earlier. I'm suprised that not more people are using this tool for secure erasure. Then again, it isn't widely known and it does have some limitations. But no other software I know of is as quick and secure. DBAN is commonly known and works well but since it is a block wiping tool, it takes significantly longer than HDDErase and doesn't completely erase everything that the latter does.

If one wants to find out more on this topic, there are plenty of papers available on the internet, including those from the software makers which I have linked to earlier. And before erasing a drive, make absolutely sure you have backed up your critical data elsewhere and that the drive you are going to erase is the one you actually intend to.

[nutball]

A hard drive should be completely erased before being passed on to another user or physically discarded. Why? I think it is the proper thing to do.

Well, first off my comment was meant in a light-hearted manner. My apologies for not using a smiley to indicate that.

Anyway, to 99% of the people to who you'd sell a hard-drive, a simple format, or install of Linux followed by a format, or a dd, is equivalent to returning it to its virgin state.

My take is that if your personal data is worth anything to you, you shouldn't be selling your hard-drive at all. The amount of money you'll get in return is small compared to what you might lose. Half an hour with a sledge hammer is a lot more effective than DBAN or anything else.

[lm]

Any linux live cd should be ok for the task.

dd if=/dev/zero of=/dev/something

Where something is the disk device in question.

Permanent, unrecoverable. Beware of doing it to the wrong drive.

Yes I am aware of LINUX and have installation of DEBIAN LINUX for video editing machine. I hear very much speculation of effectiveness of dd command however, are you sure you will bet your life on it that one can not recover hard disk after dd command? Not even most professional data recovery specialist or FBI? Can be considered TOP SECRET like National Security Agency define?

I bet absolutely nothing with you. If you fail, that's definitely not my problem. Just to make it very clear.

[Shamgar]

Well, first off my comment was meant in a light-hearted manner.

I was aware of that, actually. Your post was merely an opportunity for me to further give my opinions on the matter.

My apologies for not using a smiley to indicate that.

Smileys are so deceptive little things. Is he smiling, or is he snickering? Or is he... plotting? It's a real cause for concern. Someone should look into it.

Anyway, to 99% of the people to who you'd sell a hard-drive, a simple format, or install of Linux followed by a format, or a dd, is equivalent to returning it to its virgin state.

Formatting still leaves plenty of traces and recovery potentional behind. Any half decent recovery tool will be able to recover files that have not been written over. I don't know how things are on Linux as I don't use it. But as you allude to, most typical users wouldn't know any different and wouldn't bother with trying to recover the previous user's data.

My take is that if your personal data is worth anything to you, you shouldn't be selling your hard-drive at all. The amount of money you'll get in return is small compared to what you might lose. Half an hour with a sledge hammer is a lot more effective than DBAN or anything else.

True. I normally don't sell my unused hard drives. If I don't find a use for them, I will send them in for recycling/disposal. When doing this, I will make sure they are erased, and for added measure, smashed around a bit on concrete before they get taken out. Some people might consider these actions paranoid. I don't, however. It's the way I've always done things.

[Shamgar]

Any linux live cd should be ok for the task.

dd if=/dev/zero of=/dev/something

Where something is the disk device in question.

Permanent, unrecoverable. Beware of doing it to the wrong drive.

Yes I am aware of LINUX and have installation of DEBIAN LINUX for video editing machine. I hear very much speculation of effectiveness of dd command however, are you sure you will bet your life on it that one can not recover hard disk after dd command? Not even most professional data recovery specialist or FBI? Can be considered TOP SECRET like National Security Agency define?

I bet absolutely nothing with you. If you fail, that's definitely not my problem. Just to make it very clear.

This is getting kind of amusing. FBI? NSA? TOP SECRET? Penguins Jumping Out from Stealthed Aircraft to Recover Your Data?

[sonic6k]

Yes I am aware of LINUX and have installation of DEBIAN LINUX for video editing machine. I hear very much speculation of effectiveness of dd command however, are you sure you will bet your life on it that one can not recover hard disk after dd command? Not even most professional data recovery specialist or FBI? Can be considered TOP SECRET like National Security Agency define?

I bet absolutely nothing with you. If you fail, that's definitely not my problem. Just to make it very clear.

This is getting kind of amusing. FBI? NSA? TOP SECRET? Penguins Jumping Out from Stealthed Aircraft to Recover Your Data?

You see, flying mosquito look harmless, but do you know more of mosquito other than it is mosquito?

YES, I quote myself again, but only because none of the replies answer my question. Also, I need not to bet with someone, however what is sufficient erasing method for YOU does not mean it is to ME. Erasing method strong enough not recoverable by FBI/CIA/NSA, the more the merrier, that what I want

[thejamppa]

too bad the triple lettered organizations usually use quite hardcore program's and techniques. And a good technician can retrieve information from HDD that has been blasted with 12 gauge shot gun. Not all but its still impressive... And disturbing...

[Shamgar]

You see, flying mosquito look harmless, but do you know more of mosquito other than it is mosquito?

YES, I quote myself again, but only because none of the replies answer my question. Also, I need not to bet with someone, however what is sufficient erasing method for YOU does not mean it is to ME. Erasing method strong enough not recoverable by FBI/CIA/NSA, the more the merrier, that what I want

Do you have some secret plans to rule the known universe hidden on your computer?

too bad the triple lettered organizations usually use quite hardcore program's and techniques. And a good technician can retrieve information from HDD that has been blasted with 12 gauge shot gun. Not all but its still impressive... And disturbing...

Spies could also find out what one was typing on their computers by bouncing some detecting waves into the person's house from a van across the street. If "three lettered organisations" really want to find out something, they will try very hard and with the best technology. Or some other less peaceable methods which are even more disturbing.

[sonic6k]

Do you have some secret plans to rule the known universe hidden on your computer?

Yes.

...of course not. However assume yes, is there way for me to erase hard disk and be confident of result, YES or NO? Say the same hard disk is give for FBI/CIA/NSA and each get opportunity to investigate hard disk. How likely is it they can recover data from hard disk?

[nick705]

Yes.

...of course not. However assume yes, is there way for me to erase hard disk and be confident of result, YES or NO? Say the same hard disk is give for FBI/CIA/NSA and each get opportunity to investigate hard disk. How likely is it they can recover data from hard disk?

Personally I'd be pretty confident that a simple one-pass zero fill (provided it fully completed) would stop even the CIA/FBI/MI5/MI6/NSA from recovering anything useful from a modern high-density drive.

Clearly I don't know everything though, and I'm sure they know things that I don't know, and given that I don't know what it is that they know that I don't, it would be impossible to state with absolute certainty that chucking the drive into the Cracks of Doom would be sufficient.

So I'd estimate the likelihood at somewhere between 0% and 100%...

[quikkie]

Personally I'd be pretty confident that a simple one-pass zero fill (provided it fully completed) would stop even the CIA/FBI/MI5/MI6/NSA from recovering anything useful from a modern high-density drive.

Clearly I don't know everything though, and I'm sure they know things that I don't know, and given that I don't know what it is that they know that I don't, it would be impossible to state with absolute certainty that chucking the drive into the Cracks of Doom would be sufficient.

So I'd estimate the likelihood at somewhere between 0% and 100%...

you'd be suprised just how much survives if you are persistent enough and have the right gear - the three letter acronym agencies certainly have enough of both gear and persistence.
The US DoD have a standard for disk wiping which calls for at least three passes (and up to seven IIRC) with different data written each time, and not just all 0s or all 1s.

[sonic6k]

Personally I'd be pretty confident that a simple one-pass zero fill (provided it fully completed) would stop even the CIA/FBI/MI5/MI6/NSA from recovering anything useful from a modern high-density drive.

Clearly I don't know everything though, and I'm sure they know things that I don't know, and given that I don't know what it is that they know that I don't, it would be impossible to state with absolute certainty that chucking the drive into the Cracks of Doom would be sufficient.

So I'd estimate the likelihood at somewhere between 0% and 100%...

you'd be suprised just how much survives if you are persistent enough and have the right gear - the three letter acronym agencies certainly have enough of both gear and persistence.
The US DoD have a standard for disk wiping which calls for at least three passes (and up to seven IIRC) with different data written each time, and not just all 0s or all 1s.

This is exactly data I wanted, not that I am criminal or have world destruction plan on HDD

So US DoD wiping with 7 pass, is this strong enough that an agency can not get anything useful out of the drive? Also, does anyone have anything to back up the information on how much they can actually restore? Lastly, does the same apply to SSD? If SSD is erased, how harder is it to restore the data versus normal HDD? Also, what method of wiping should be used for SSD?

Thanks!

[quikkie]

after 7 passes it becomes very difficult/time consuming/expensive to recover whatever data was on there, notice that I didn't say impossible just difficult.

Either way three or seven passes of DoD spec disk wiping will destroy the data enough that the data recovery companies will not be able to recover the data. The idea is to exercise each bit on the disk i.e. change to binary 0 and change to binary 1 and back again by writing patterns all over the disk to mask whatever was on there.

This won't work so well on SSDs because the drive controllers wear levelling techniques and the "spare" flash cells that an SSD has.

[nick705]

you'd be suprised just how much survives if you are persistent enough and have the right gear - the three letter acronym agencies certainly have enough of both gear and persistence.
The US DoD have a standard for disk wiping which calls for at least three passes (and up to seven IIRC) with different data written each time, and not just all 0s or all 1s.

Frankly, yes, I would be surprised - I'm aware of the DoD specs, and of the theoretical uses of scanning electron microscopy, but do you have a link to a credible source confirming that usable data has *ever* actually been recovered in practice after a single pass zero fill (such as the Linux dd command mentioned above)?

It's all very well to say the three-letter agencies have some clever stuff, and I'm sure they do, but as it's almost certainly classified it would be impossible to say exactly what they can or can't accomplish - therefore the truly paranoid could *never* be totally sure their data was irretrievable (which is the point I was making).

[antoine]

Another freeware tool is Sdelete from Mark Russinovitch (now MS employee). The advantage of this tool is that it doesn't require any installation and is run through the command line.

[quikkie]

Frankly, yes, I would be surprised - I'm aware of the DoD specs, and of the theoretical uses of scanning electron microscopy, but do you have a link to a credible source confirming that usable data has *ever* actually been recovered in practice after a single pass zero fill (such as the Linux dd command mentioned above)?

Nothing online and even then only verbal anecdotes. My Dad was an IBM hardware engineer for a time (1970s). At some point he was looking at the oscilloscope readout of a tape that had been overwritten with other data, yet you could still see a weak copy of the original data. He didn't mention if data was actually recovered but did discuss how you might go about it. Something to do with ignoring the strong signal and isolate the weaker signals, possibly even reading from the outside of the track where remanents of the original data are more likely to exist.

Now I haven't tried to recover from a zero fill myself but I have recovered large chunks of data from a disk that had two NTFS partitions that was reformatted to ext3. This isn't strictly a direct comparison but just to show what can be done with software only.

[alleycat]

what method of wiping should be used for SSD?

Depending on the make and model, some firmware updates will completely erase and reset the drive. Manufacturers may also provide tools to completely erase drives, returning them to their raw state (eg OCZ's "sanitary erase").

[lm]

Now I haven't tried to recover from a zero fill myself but I have recovered large chunks of data from a disk that had two NTFS partitions that was reformatted to ext3. This isn't strictly a direct comparison but just to show what can be done with software only.

You can't do anything with software only after full zero fill.

[Shamgar]

If you haven't already visited the CMRR site I linked to earlier, I suggest you at least give it a browse. While the program (HDDErase) is no longer supported, the documents on their page answer most of the questions brought up in this thread. If you don't want to use the program, download and read the .pdf, .txt and .doc files. The same goes for the other programs I linked to near the beginning of the thread.

Hopefully then, some of you may be able to sleep at night knowing that your secret plans to rule the known universe will be safely and securely erased from your hard drives and you can then plan your escape in a spacecraft/time machine/portal to another universe before the three letter acronym organisations foil your taking over of space and time.