Not a hero, not even close.

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Not a hero, not even close.

Post by aristide1 » Tue Feb 23, 2010 5:53 pm

http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2010/02/22 ... 2164.shtml

Maybe a hero for Sarah Palin and her cult.
People who put money and political ideology ahead of truth and ethics are neither patriots nor human beings.

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Post by NeilBlanchard » Tue Feb 23, 2010 7:39 pm

I am at a loss to understand this tragic event. It was senseless.
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Post by andyb » Wed Feb 24, 2010 3:14 am

The last that I read on this story, he was just "suspected" to have flown his plane into the building to hit the tax office because he was pissed off with them - who is not.

Now I know that the guy was pissed off with the tax office things become a little clearer. He burned down his house, got into a plane, deliberatlely flew it into a building to get back at them, whilst killing himself, and murdering a random stranger.

That guy is a long way from being a hero, and the only thing that gives me any joy about the whole story is that the stupid daughter wont inherit his house, or belongings, and it wont be covered by insurance as it was arson caused by the owner. That is of little consequence to the friends and family of the murdered party.


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Post by NeilBlanchard » Wed Feb 24, 2010 10:12 am

Hi Andy,

I don't know all the details, but I think the daughter who is quoted is from a previous marriage, and his second wife and child ARE left homeless. They had apparently left home to stay in a hotel, because this guy had been very upset and he scared them enough to make them leave. So, he burned down the house while they were away...

Taxes are a fact of life, people! How else would you have us live in (relatively) civil society?
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Post by andyb » Thu Feb 25, 2010 4:41 am

I don't know all the details, but I think the daughter who is quoted is from a previous marriage, and his second wife and child ARE left homeless. They had apparently left home to stay in a hotel, because this guy had been very upset and he scared them enough to make them leave.
Well, I hope they dont bother turning up at his funeral, what an arsehole. The man scares his wife and daughter out of their home, burns down their home, and then murders a perfect stranger. If I were them I would be more inclined to go to the murder victims funeral than his. Did they not report him to the police.?

Is it possilbe that this whole episode partly as a result of him and his wife breaking up.? That would explain a lot.


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Post by andymcca » Thu Feb 25, 2010 5:51 am

This guy was crazy, plain and simple. There is no rational explanation (even in terms of a momentary lapse of judgment) for burning down your own house, driving all the way to the airport, taking the time it takes to sign a plane out and get into the air, and then flying into a building.

That anyone could call him a "hero" is shocking, and an indication that those people are also unbalanced/unstable/fanatical. He was just some deranged f**k with an airplane and a delusion.

As for taxes... It seems likely that uh... His kid went to school? He drove on roadways to and from work? He relied on fire departments? He'd probably been to a library. I'm not sure where he went to school, but it likely got some federal funding. He likely had municipal sewer and drain water services. Etc etc etc...

People seem to think that the chunk of money coming out of your paycheck is going straight to NASA, politicians, etc, but if you look at the damned budget, most of it goes to things you actually use (and the military, which I suppose you could debate the merits of). Tax cuts may partially come out of NASA or something (no Orion), but so much more of it has to come from your highways, your schools, and your public services.
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Post by idale » Thu Feb 25, 2010 7:20 am

andymcca wrote:This guy was crazy, plain and simple. There is no rational explanation (even in terms of a momentary lapse of judgment) for burning down your own house, driving all the way to the airport, taking the time it takes to sign a plane out and get into the air, and then flying into a building.
Granted that he lived on the north side of Austin and the Georgetown regional airport isn't all that far, but it definitely seemed like he was planning this out for a while.

When we've got a huge IRS center in South Austin and he chose this building (that houses fewer people but has the criminal investigation department), I would think one of two things: he thought he could do more damage against this sort of building, or he was under investigation by these people (it's not like there's huge signs everywhere saying there's IRS workers there).

Regardless, he was a lunatic and a terrorist, and I hope his recent wife and stepdaughter come through this okay (not like they've been around long enough to have likely contributed anything to his plot), though the widow of the IRS employee has filed a lawsuit, so he may well have succeeded in destroying his new family's welfare as well as killing one and endangering hundreds more innocent workers (both with the federal government and in various small local businesses who just happened to work in the building).
That anyone could call him a "hero" is shocking, and an indication that those people are also unbalanced/unstable/fanatical. He was just some deranged f**k with an airplane and a delusion.
And sadly, there's a lot of similarly-deranged people in this fine country of ours. If you don't like how we run things here, feel free to run for office or find another country that suits you better. Don't like taxes? Well, not sure you can find a place without them worth living, and really we don't have all that much in taxes, relatively. You can try surviving without taxes if you take up residence in the middle of nowhere, make no money, and fend for yourself.

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Post by AZBrandon » Thu Feb 25, 2010 9:23 am

It's apparent from reading his manifesto that this guy was an atheist. He rails against any type of church, saying they are all conning people out of their money, basically that you're an idiot if you believe in God. So how do you atheists reconcile such things? The atheists here always maintain that atheism is the way of enlightened people who are smarter than everyone else. What about the atheists arrested for burning down churches in Texas? Yet more atheists who hate people and go around destroying buildings because of their moral superiority.

Is this the future we have to look forward to as atheism grows in power in America? More hate crimes, more murders, more terrorism, all in the name of atheism? That's an ugly picture of America, to have all this hatred, death, and burning buildings because of atheists trying to push their values on everyone else. I don't want to have atheists pushing their values in some kind of "conversion by the sword" or "renounce God or burn" sort of thing like the days of Nero. It's sad when you have to burn down buildings to try to advance your cause.
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Post by NeilBlanchard » Thu Feb 25, 2010 9:53 am

Before this veers off topic -- there are any number of hateful and violent acts done in the name of God/Allah, so let's not become armchair psychiatrists.
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Re: Not a hero, not even close.

Post by Fayd » Thu Feb 25, 2010 10:30 am

aristide1 wrote:http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2010/02/22 ... 2164.shtml

Maybe a hero for Sarah Palin and her cult.
why would you politicize something as retarded as this?

he's not a hero for anyone other than his dumb daughter, who made the statement.

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Post by qviri » Thu Feb 25, 2010 11:19 am

AZBrandon wrote:It's apparent from reading his manifesto that this guy was an atheist. He rails against any type of church, saying they are all conning people out of their money, basically that you're an idiot if you believe in God. So how do you atheists reconcile such things? The atheists here always maintain that atheism is the way of enlightened people who are smarter than everyone else.
I appreciate a good strawman as much as the next person, but honestly.

Whoever said all atheists are "enlightened people who are smarter than everyone else" -- if someone did in fact make that argument -- was not having his finest intellectual hour.

Now can we get back to discussing anti-tax lunatics?
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Post by andyb » Thu Feb 25, 2010 12:50 pm

Is this the future we have to look forward to as atheism grows in power in America? More hate crimes, more murders, more terrorism, all in the name of atheism?.
What else do you expect in America, I dont even bother reading the news storys about gun rampages anymore, there must be something about America that affects its populous in such strange ways.

FYI, nutcases come in all forms, old, young, rich, poor, religious, non-religious, male, female, staight, gay, and anything else you can think of. The real implication here is when they are doing something for a "purpose" such as anti-gay, anti-religion, anti-female, anti-poor - that changes everything. Simply "belonging" to a group rarely has anything to do with that persons actions.

I also vote not to talk about this subject in this topic, there are other topics where this discussion lives, unless: That story is true, and that was an "actual" prime motivation for this act of murder and destruction, and not a mere suggestion like mine was about marriage/family issues, this is doubtful as he flew his plane into a tax office, and not a church - your theory is on shaky ground from the outset.


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Post by Fayd » Thu Feb 25, 2010 1:16 pm

andyb wrote:What else do you expect in America, I dont even bother reading the news storys about gun rampages anymore, there must be something about America that affects its populous in such strange ways.
you say that as though crazy lunatics are exclusive to america.

shit like that happens everywhere.

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Post by andyb » Thu Feb 25, 2010 2:30 pm

you say that as though crazy lunatics are exclusive to america.

shit like that happens everywhere.
Yes, but America is different.

Compare the murder rate to other 1st world countries.

I see Turkey / Poland / Bulgaria as the only 1st world countries with a higher murder rate than the US, and that depends on who's stats you read, and whether they are even considered 1st world countries for that matter.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_co ... icide_rate

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_m ... per-capita

http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog ... urder-data

Not to say that the UK is low on the list like Japan, but our murder rate is half that of the US, that is significant.


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Post by Fayd » Thu Feb 25, 2010 7:08 pm

andyb wrote:
you say that as though crazy lunatics are exclusive to america.

shit like that happens everywhere.
Yes, but America is different.
no, it's really not.

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Post by AZBrandon » Thu Feb 25, 2010 10:15 pm

qviri wrote:Whoever said all atheists are "enlightened people who are smarter than everyone else" -- if someone did in fact make that argument -- was not having his finest intellectual hour.
To answer your question, it was a satirical response to the "what's wrong" thread and the funny posts in it. This one serves as an adequate example:
xan_user wrote:Intelligence is the biggest threat to dogmatic religions there is.

Intelligence is demonized by the church at all costs. It was a crime for a Catholic to own a bible when Catholicism was in its prime.
It was a dark satire, timely because very frequently when someone is labeled as religious and does something horrible, a few people are quick to jump on it and declare that it serves as anecdotal evidence of why they hate that religion, or all faith in general. It's certainly not everybody, in fact it's not even a majority from what I can see. One thing with message boards is that because people only post in a topic when they have strong feelings, it can magnify perceptions. In other words, 100 people might read something, think "That's nice" but 3 had strong feelings and all post repeatedly, giving a distorted impression of reality. The forum itself is much like society as a whole, that just a handful who end up in the public eye do much to shape perceptions of a larger group.

The good news is at least everybody who has posted so far here seems to agree that blowing up a building is wrong. I tire of hearing about stories of mindless evil like this and long for the day when all sin and evil is wiped clean from the Earth, but it would be nice if we could at least get it nearly wiped out all on our own so it would be more enjoyable to live here in the mean time.
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Post by xan_user » Thu Feb 25, 2010 11:09 pm

Truth is sometimes dark and scary, but I would never joke about religion's abominable history. Murder in the name of god is a scary concept.

If atheists could get the same tax exempt status as molesting Catholic perverts, then maybe this nut job would have never flown off the handle. Of course its sound like a few greedy CEO's heads rolling out of the guillotine might have kept this guy grounded too.

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Post by andyb » Fri Feb 26, 2010 3:25 am

no, it's really not.
Such a profound statement, and unarguable answer that speaks volumes of the truth :lol:
It was a dark satire, timely because very frequently when someone is labeled as religious and does something horrible, a few people are quick to jump on it and declare that it serves as anecdotal evidence of why they hate that religion, or all faith in general.
And there we come back to a problem, in a news story to do with such events, they never mention someone as a "good Athiest", people are always listed as a "good xxxxxxx", so people of all other faiths, and non-believers alike will jump on that and say, ha "if that was a good xxxxxxx, then whats a bad one like". Simply mentioning something that is totally unimportant, and has nothing at all with how that person governed their life if simply lighting a match in a firework factory, suddenly the fireworks are everywhere, making a lot of noise.


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Post by NeilBlanchard » Fri Feb 26, 2010 5:06 am

People -- please do not expand this thread to every problem, perceived or real!

We know next to nothing about the person who flew an airplane into the IRS building in Texas. I'm not sure what there is to discuss.

Please consider your posts carefully.
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Post by andyb » Fri Feb 26, 2010 6:20 am

Apologies.
I also vote not to talk about this subject in this topic, there are other topics where this discussion lives, unless: That story is true, and that was an "actual" prime motivation for this act of murder and destruction, and not a mere suggestion like mine was about marriage/family issues

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Post by andymcca » Fri Feb 26, 2010 10:46 am

The denizens of the United States are no different from elsewhere -- equaly crazy. The two differences are
A) We have a sh-t-ton of guns, and now even fully automatics are legal. Thus when Bobby-joe gets angry at joey-ray, they both have shotguns handy instead of some fists and a bar stool. When Joey-Ray is chemically imbalanced, this leads to a homicide.
B) The "history" of the place is full of b--lshit manifest-destiny take-what-is-yours f--k-the-other-guy stuff. Some people start to believe they really do deserve a bigger yard (just move the fence into your neightbor's!), the money from the register (grab a gun!), or to shut someone up with brutal force because they are a "damned X,Y,Z".

Granted these things exist to some extent in other places, but until you start looking at war-torn third world countries, the USA is pretty scary.
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Post by xan_user » Fri Feb 26, 2010 11:19 am

NeilBlanchard wrote:People -- please do not expand this thread to every problem, perceived or real!

We know next to nothing about the person who flew an airplane into the IRS building in Texas. I'm not sure what there is to discuss.

Please consider your posts carefully.
Apologies as well, but fellows Jame Burke showed me how everything is ultimately connected, whether we actually perceive it at the time or not.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Connection ... _series%29

Besides isn't it the point of Off Topic sub forum, to be off topic? :roll:

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Post by idale » Fri Feb 26, 2010 12:01 pm

AZBrandon wrote:He rails against any type of church, saying they are all conning people out of their money[...]
Just saw an article on a local station's site that sheds some light on that: looks like he had his own "church" that he was using as a tax shelter. So I guess he's one to know, since that's what he was doing (albeit trying to con the government out of their money due in taxes)? ;) That's probably his main beef, the prolonged fight with the IRS over something he was doing wrong 20 years ago (and in the middle of an audit for).

Would've been better if he'd learned as a child that you can't always get everything your way, since then he'd just be knocking down block towers instead of causing real problems when he snapped. :?

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Post by andyb » Fri Feb 26, 2010 12:57 pm

Just saw an article on a local station's site that sheds some light on that: looks like he had his own "church" that he was using as a tax shelter.
I can understand his resentment against many other "companies" that are tax exempt and tying to copy that, but I totally deplore his attack on other people over money that he would always have had to pay if he had not tried to become "tax exempt" by setting up his own "company".

Thanks for the updated news story idale


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Post by Fayd » Fri Feb 26, 2010 1:13 pm

andymcca wrote:The denizens of the United States are no different from elsewhere -- equaly crazy. The two differences are
A) We have a sh-t-ton of guns, and now even fully automatics are legal. Thus when Bobby-joe gets angry at joey-ray, they both have shotguns handy instead of some fists and a bar stool. When Joey-Ray is chemically imbalanced, this leads to a homicide.
B) The "history" of the place is full of b--lshit manifest-destiny take-what-is-yours f--k-the-other-guy stuff. Some people start to believe they really do deserve a bigger yard (just move the fence into your neightbor's!), the money from the register (grab a gun!), or to shut someone up with brutal force because they are a "damned X,Y,Z".

Granted these things exist to some extent in other places, but until you start looking at war-torn third world countries, the USA is pretty scary.
since when are fully automatic guns legal to own? unless you're referring to licensed firearms, then you're blowing shit out your ass.
check your facts, you're just making yourself look retarded.

manifest destiny is the justification for expansion of the national borders during our imperial era. afaic, it's no different from any other imperialistic nation. it has NOTHING to do with modern intra-neighborhood problems that you seem to think exist. (move your fence? wtf?)

the bulk of violent crime in the US exists in inner cities, or ghettos. (black, mexican, white trash.(saw some documentary on "pink ghettos", lol))

crime in general in the US is no more violent than the UK or other countries. Our homicide rates might be higher, but I'm not sure on that, given the history of under-reporting crimes that UK is known for. (and surprise, surprise, since outlawing guns both the UK and Australia have seen violent crime rates rise sharply. who'd have guessed?!)

no, the USA is not scary.

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Post by xan_user » Fri Feb 26, 2010 1:18 pm

Fayd wrote:
no, the USA is not scary.
Unless your country's views don't match US, then we get scary ugly...

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Post by Fayd » Fri Feb 26, 2010 1:29 pm

xan_user wrote:
Fayd wrote:
no, the USA is not scary.
Unless your country's views don't match US, then we get scary ugly...
well, that's a different matter.

then it's their fault for not conforming to our views.

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Post by qviri » Fri Feb 26, 2010 4:11 pm

Fayd wrote:then it's their fault for not conforming to our views.
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Post by andyb » Sat Feb 27, 2010 4:22 am

and surprise, surprise, since outlawing guns both the UK and Australia have seen violent crime rates rise sharply. who'd have guessed
I dont argue with idiots, so I wont even grace that stupid statement with an answer. And of course I have already said that I wont discuss off topic things in this topic that are far better suited to already existing topics where such matters have already been discussed greatly.

Doeas anyone else have any actual news on this topic, such as the amount of damage done to the building, is anyone seriously injured, have there been any copycats etc etc.


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Post by aristide1 » Sat Feb 27, 2010 4:02 pm

One can be a Christian, an atheist, or even a person with dain brammage to realize that giving money to the richest organization on the face of the earth is not neccessarily something you do because of faith.

Once a person who did not go to church was questioned about his beliefs by a priest. He replied, "I live my beliefs 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, not just for a 20 minute period on Sundays." The priest felt the person was just fine.
People who put money and political ideology ahead of truth and ethics are neither patriots nor human beings.

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