I'm building a MythTV frontend for HDTV playback -- no gaming at all, just DVB-S and ATSC HDTV playback -- and am looking for the coolest, quietest card that would also provide me with HDTV output options. Here are my general requirements:
- Must be an NVIDIA card (poor linux support of ATI cards)
- Must have component and DVI output
- PCI-E
There are so many options, and I'm just not sure which would be the coolest. Its so frustrating that a cards thermal properties are not readily found or published. Does anyone have suggestions?
Need help selecting NVidia video card for MythTV frontend
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What CPU do you have?
Anything modern (P4-2.8GHz or later, say) will be able to replay HDTV without the need for hardware decoding on the graphics card.
If so, then something basic like a NVIDIA 7100 card will do fine - and many have the small form factor too.
If not, then prepare yourself for some grief because XVMC does not always work out of the box for NVIDIA Cards - check out the mythtv wiki for classic models that you can probably get off ebay (the NVIDIA 5200 springs to mind as working well, if I remember correctly).
If not, then a NVIDIA 7300GT will be more than sufficient. I have a Gigabyte Gigabyte GF7300GT 256MB (but don't use XVMC - a dual athalon handles that).
It's passive, and cooks at around 70degC (perfectly safe) inside a Antec Solo with an Antec Neo 430, passive scythe nina-cooled Athalon X2-3600+ (65W). Case fan is stock, set to medium speed. Processsor get to 45deg at full power, 35deg idle. Ambient room temperature 25-30deg.
Still plenty of scope for further silencing, but at the moment, I really can't be bothered.
If you really need component out, then good luck! If not, think about a box to covert from VGA to component out - it will probably be easier (and cheaper) than finding a card with that feature.
Anything modern (P4-2.8GHz or later, say) will be able to replay HDTV without the need for hardware decoding on the graphics card.
If so, then something basic like a NVIDIA 7100 card will do fine - and many have the small form factor too.
If not, then prepare yourself for some grief because XVMC does not always work out of the box for NVIDIA Cards - check out the mythtv wiki for classic models that you can probably get off ebay (the NVIDIA 5200 springs to mind as working well, if I remember correctly).
If not, then a NVIDIA 7300GT will be more than sufficient. I have a Gigabyte Gigabyte GF7300GT 256MB (but don't use XVMC - a dual athalon handles that).
It's passive, and cooks at around 70degC (perfectly safe) inside a Antec Solo with an Antec Neo 430, passive scythe nina-cooled Athalon X2-3600+ (65W). Case fan is stock, set to medium speed. Processsor get to 45deg at full power, 35deg idle. Ambient room temperature 25-30deg.
Still plenty of scope for further silencing, but at the moment, I really can't be bothered.
If you really need component out, then good luck! If not, think about a box to covert from VGA to component out - it will probably be easier (and cheaper) than finding a card with that feature.
I have a passive 7600GS made by EVGA in a Silverstone LC17. I only use DVI and I run MCE2005. It gets the hottest when doing 1080i output. I made a small mod to the case and put an exhaust vent above the video card and PCI slots (tuners can get quite hot). With a 120mm fan running at 600rpm, the video card reaches about 62 when running 1080i output. Before I had good ventiliation of that area, it got up to the 70c range, which wasn't a problem for the card itself, I just needed a place for the hot air to go so I could keep the CPU cool.
Oh, and every Nvidia card I've bought (6600, 7300GS, 7600GS) came with a dongle for component output. I'm pretty sure it's standard these days, but you should check before making the plunge.
Oh, and every Nvidia card I've bought (6600, 7300GS, 7600GS) came with a dongle for component output. I'm pretty sure it's standard these days, but you should check before making the plunge.
Actually, I'm kind of rebuilding this from scratch. The computer I am scavenging parts from was recently constructed, but I've since realized how much better off I would be with a silent / low power draw machine. Right now, I've got a D805, which I know draws way too much power and generates a lot of heat. I've got a 955-based Asus P5WD2 motherboard. I'm planning on ebaying the motherboard and CPU and really building something cool and quiet. While this is probably the subject of an entirely different thread, I'm also looking for recommendations on motherboard and CPU combinations. Another possibility I've thought about is getting a 6100-based AM2 motherboard, but I'm not sure that one is available that does component output, or what the power consumption and thermal profile of those boards is like. Does anyone have a suggestion?
Regarding PCI-E cards, I want to be able to output to 1080i (now) and 1080p (in the future) TVs. I too have read that the 5xxx series cards are enough for what I want to do, but I'm not absolutely certain about whether they are capable of output in 1080i/1080p.
Also, I'm not sure I quite understand some of the assumptions made about power consumption versus heat production regarding video cards. While the 5xxx series probably have significantly less power consumption that modern cards, at least as far as I know, they also tended to generate a significant amount of heat. I've read in these forums that some of the 7600GS cards in particular produce less heat. So I guess what we're really looking for is efficiency, but no one seems to word it that way. Maybe it's just semantics, but low power consumption does not necessarily equate to low heat production, right? Given this, are there 7600GS cards that are more efficient yet also have reasonable power draw?
Regarding PCI-E cards, I want to be able to output to 1080i (now) and 1080p (in the future) TVs. I too have read that the 5xxx series cards are enough for what I want to do, but I'm not absolutely certain about whether they are capable of output in 1080i/1080p.
Also, I'm not sure I quite understand some of the assumptions made about power consumption versus heat production regarding video cards. While the 5xxx series probably have significantly less power consumption that modern cards, at least as far as I know, they also tended to generate a significant amount of heat. I've read in these forums that some of the 7600GS cards in particular produce less heat. So I guess what we're really looking for is efficiency, but no one seems to word it that way. Maybe it's just semantics, but low power consumption does not necessarily equate to low heat production, right? Given this, are there 7600GS cards that are more efficient yet also have reasonable power draw?
In general, the more power, the more heat it generates.
Sometimes, however, a more modern graphics card will produce less heat because it is produced on a semiconductor process with smaller transistors. Smaller transistors in general means less leakage when they switch, directly reducing the power consumption.
Therefore, the 7300/7600s are more power efficient that the 7100 (or at least used to be - more info needed) because the former are produced on a 90nm process as opposed to a 110nm process.
Idle wattage is about 10-15W for these, if I remember correctly, which is what it will be doing the majority of the time.
There is an asus mobo (Asus M2NPV-VM Socket M2 nForce6150 GbLan ) that looks to be the sort of solution you are looking for, if you need an all-in-one solution, but beware the trade-off for expandability.
Your processor choice won't have that much of an impact on being able to decode HDTV - Even a single core bottom-of-the-range AMD will handle the load. It depends on what other activities you plan for the PC.
What's more, if you install 64-bit linux, the mythtv yum from ATRPMs will be optimised for the instruction set, making it less of an issue again.
Sometimes, however, a more modern graphics card will produce less heat because it is produced on a semiconductor process with smaller transistors. Smaller transistors in general means less leakage when they switch, directly reducing the power consumption.
Therefore, the 7300/7600s are more power efficient that the 7100 (or at least used to be - more info needed) because the former are produced on a 90nm process as opposed to a 110nm process.
Idle wattage is about 10-15W for these, if I remember correctly, which is what it will be doing the majority of the time.
There is an asus mobo (Asus M2NPV-VM Socket M2 nForce6150 GbLan ) that looks to be the sort of solution you are looking for, if you need an all-in-one solution, but beware the trade-off for expandability.
Your processor choice won't have that much of an impact on being able to decode HDTV - Even a single core bottom-of-the-range AMD will handle the load. It depends on what other activities you plan for the PC.
What's more, if you install 64-bit linux, the mythtv yum from ATRPMs will be optimised for the instruction set, making it less of an issue again.
Actually, smaller transistor processes have meant more leakage for the last few process generations (.09nm and lower). This effect has been reduced somewhat by using different materials.
The thing that makes smaller processes run cooler is that they always mean a lower voltage requirement, and as we all know here, lower voltage = lower heat output. That and architectural enhancements means that a new card is almost always lower power than an older card for the same speed range.
The thing that makes smaller processes run cooler is that they always mean a lower voltage requirement, and as we all know here, lower voltage = lower heat output. That and architectural enhancements means that a new card is almost always lower power than an older card for the same speed range.
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matt_garman
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If you're rebuilding your entire machine, I'd suggest going with an onboard GPU. My recently-rebuilt MythTV is an X2 3800 on an Abit NF-M2 nView. I built my parents a MythTV using an X2 4200 on an Asus M2NPV-VM.
Both of these motherboards have integrated GeForce 6150 graphics and DVI output. That's the low-end for graphics these days, but it works fine. I find I get better playback using the CPU to decode HDTV MPEG2 rather than the GPU (i.e. XvMC). One thing to keep in mind: make sure you use the 9xxx series of drivers: helps immensely with performance.
Both my parents and I do exclusively HD-TV recorded over the air (them, with a pcHDTV-3000, and me, with a pcHDTV-5500). So technically, 1080i is the highest resolution I've done so far, but I would be shocked and appalled if 1080p was problematic. Playback of recorded 1080i via MythTV only consumes about 30--40% of one CPU core (leaving the other for commercial flagging or whatever).
If you follow the link in my signature, look at the stats on the computer named "cesspool"---this is my MythTV box. It's silent from the couch, and extremely quiet when my ear is right next to the fans. The computer named "fisherman" is my parents' MythTV box. My dad has accidentally reset it because it's so quiet he thought it was turned off (and they live way out in the country, where there's very little background noise)!
If you don't want onboard video, I'd probably just go find the cheapest 7-series nVidia PCIe card that does not have a fan and has DVI output. There are mid- and even high-end passive cards available, but they put out so much heat that they rely on a lot of airflow in the case (which typically means extra fans and more potential noise sources).
Good luck!
Matt
Both of these motherboards have integrated GeForce 6150 graphics and DVI output. That's the low-end for graphics these days, but it works fine. I find I get better playback using the CPU to decode HDTV MPEG2 rather than the GPU (i.e. XvMC). One thing to keep in mind: make sure you use the 9xxx series of drivers: helps immensely with performance.
Both my parents and I do exclusively HD-TV recorded over the air (them, with a pcHDTV-3000, and me, with a pcHDTV-5500). So technically, 1080i is the highest resolution I've done so far, but I would be shocked and appalled if 1080p was problematic. Playback of recorded 1080i via MythTV only consumes about 30--40% of one CPU core (leaving the other for commercial flagging or whatever).
If you follow the link in my signature, look at the stats on the computer named "cesspool"---this is my MythTV box. It's silent from the couch, and extremely quiet when my ear is right next to the fans. The computer named "fisherman" is my parents' MythTV box. My dad has accidentally reset it because it's so quiet he thought it was turned off (and they live way out in the country, where there's very little background noise)!
If you don't want onboard video, I'd probably just go find the cheapest 7-series nVidia PCIe card that does not have a fan and has DVI output. There are mid- and even high-end passive cards available, but they put out so much heat that they rely on a lot of airflow in the case (which typically means extra fans and more potential noise sources).
Good luck!
Matt
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matt_garman
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I re-read your post and came up with more things to say...
As far as CPUs go, it's not necessary, but I'd recommend dual core for an HD MythTV setup. You can get the X2 3600 "Brisbane" OEM for $70. This processor is just a tad slower than what I'm using, so I'd expect it to be perfect for your MythTV.
With a processor, though, your input is energy, but your output is basically just shifted bits (different states in the processor's registers). So you can definitely have "efficient" processors defined by quantity of computations per watt consumed. But you can still have a less efficient processor that consumes less energy than a more efficient one.
So, when speaking of processors, generally, the less power consumed, the less heat produced (but that says nothing about the processor's efficiency).
Hope that helps,
Matt
The Asus M2NPV-VM has a "dongle" you can install in your case's PCI card area that has component out (that's what my parents' setup uses). I can't remember if my Abit came with one of those or not. Doesn't matter, since I use a DVI-to-HDMI cable.kas wrote:...I'm also looking for recommendations on motherboard and CPU combinations. Another possibility I've thought about is getting a 6100-based AM2 motherboard, but I'm not sure that one is available that does component output, or what the power consumption and thermal profile of those boards is like. Does anyone have a suggestion?
As far as CPUs go, it's not necessary, but I'd recommend dual core for an HD MythTV setup. You can get the X2 3600 "Brisbane" OEM for $70. This processor is just a tad slower than what I'm using, so I'd expect it to be perfect for your MythTV.
That's a good question. I'd dig around nVidia's website to see if you can find out for sure. Both mine and my parents' TVs are 720p/1080i native, so I have the video card set to output to 1280x720 @ 60Hz (i.e. 720p).kas wrote:Regarding PCI-E cards, I want to be able to output to 1080i (now) and 1080p (in the future) TVs. I too have read that the 5xxx series cards are enough for what I want to do, but I'm not absolutely certain about whether they are capable of output in 1080i/1080p.
Generally, no, that's not true, at least not with a CPU/GPU. With a power supply, yes. When you talk about "efficiency" of a power supply (or even a lightbulb!), you look at how much of the input energy is lost to heat. So, an "ideal" power supply (that doesn't currently exist) is one that can take X AC input watts and output X DC watts. An ideal lightbulb converts exactly all of it's electrical energy to light energy.kas wrote:but low power consumption does not necessarily equate to low heat production, right?
With a processor, though, your input is energy, but your output is basically just shifted bits (different states in the processor's registers). So you can definitely have "efficient" processors defined by quantity of computations per watt consumed. But you can still have a less efficient processor that consumes less energy than a more efficient one.
So, when speaking of processors, generally, the less power consumed, the less heat produced (but that says nothing about the processor's efficiency).
I would do research on nvidia's website to figure out how much GPU power you really need. E.g., you you really need a 7600GS? Personally, I doubt it. Let's say the onboard 6150 is sufficient for your needs. The 6150 is certainly less efficient than the 7600GS, but overall, the 6150 will have lower power consumption and therefore produce less heat.kas wrote:Given this, are there 7600GS cards that are more efficient yet also have reasonable power draw?
Hope that helps,
Matt
Agreed.
Before it smoked, I have a P4-2.4GHz with an NV6200 card that was decoding 1080i with 60% CPU usage. XMVC was choppy - for some reason it wanted to drop every 2nd frame. Other users reported it working fine for Kaffeine, but not MythTV for some reason.
It smoked because I opened the case and dropped a screwdiver across the mobo that shorted stuff
The case was one of those small form factor things and it all just ran too hot. My problem for using recycled components.
And **make sure** (double and triple check) that the tuner card you are using is Linux compatible! Or IT WILL cause you grief.
Personally, I use a DViCO Dual Digital 2, and a few tricks aside setting it up (I was a guinnea pig for the driver somewhat), it works well. DO NOT (yet) get a dual digital 4. There is lots of traffic on the dvb mailing list about problems with this card.
If you want an out-there idea, try a Via MiniITX board. It claims to have an MPEG2 decoder in hardware that handles HDTV. Google around and see of this is an option for you.
Before it smoked, I have a P4-2.4GHz with an NV6200 card that was decoding 1080i with 60% CPU usage. XMVC was choppy - for some reason it wanted to drop every 2nd frame. Other users reported it working fine for Kaffeine, but not MythTV for some reason.
It smoked because I opened the case and dropped a screwdiver across the mobo that shorted stuff
The case was one of those small form factor things and it all just ran too hot. My problem for using recycled components.And **make sure** (double and triple check) that the tuner card you are using is Linux compatible! Or IT WILL cause you grief.
Personally, I use a DViCO Dual Digital 2, and a few tricks aside setting it up (I was a guinnea pig for the driver somewhat), it works well. DO NOT (yet) get a dual digital 4. There is lots of traffic on the dvb mailing list about problems with this card.
If you want an out-there idea, try a Via MiniITX board. It claims to have an MPEG2 decoder in hardware that handles HDTV. Google around and see of this is an option for you.
Thanks for the input folks. I've decided that I'm going with an AMD board and the Asus integrated 6150 chipset motherboard, which always leaves open the possibility of improving the video card if necessary when/if XvMC ever supports H.264 decoding. The power draw at idle looks great on Brisbane or even the 65watt CPUs, and paired with either network boot or a laptop HD, I think I can build that silent front-end that I've wanted for the living room. Darn it, I just read that the AMD will have some pretty steep price cuts in a week on their CPUs -- might be worth the wait.
BTW, on the D805 based system, for HD viewing @ 1080i, I was getting about 60-70% CPU utilization; with PIP that number jumped to 100%. Uggh.
The tuning cards I'm using, BTW, with great success are the HDHomerun, the SkyStar2, and the Hauppauge Nova-S Plus. All have been working great. I also had good results with the ATI HDTV Wonder in linux (contrary to popular belief). All tuners will be served from a dedicated BE.
BTW, on the D805 based system, for HD viewing @ 1080i, I was getting about 60-70% CPU utilization; with PIP that number jumped to 100%. Uggh.
The tuning cards I'm using, BTW, with great success are the HDHomerun, the SkyStar2, and the Hauppauge Nova-S Plus. All have been working great. I also had good results with the ATI HDTV Wonder in linux (contrary to popular belief). All tuners will be served from a dedicated BE.