Random Thought on this whole Video Card Thing - Vent

thejamppa · Post by **thejamppa** » Thu Oct 29, 2009 12:44 am

I admit that my soon 2 years old and soon 6 month's old HD 4850's were huge overkill's for my needs. I really did not need to upgrade my HD 3850 256MB to HD 4850 512MB when I did. My most demanding game then and after that was Oblivion.

However now I am glad I did. I received Crysis as gift, I gto Far Cry 2 and BioShock from bargain bins and cost me around $12-15 USD's.

But I will sit down this HD 5-series without even planning upgrade until: nVidia's FERMI is released. I want to see how nVidia can answer HD 5-series.

And I still down have Window's 7 Home Premium. It makes little sense to buy HD 5-series VGA card with 1 GB memory into old 32-bit XP. Not for me anyway. I'll wait till I have 64-bit Win 7 put in Dualboot with XP ( I know Win 7 has XP mode but nothing beats the real thing in gaming ) and when I get DX11 card i also want to have DX 10 or DX 11 in computer, even last game I played was DX 8 ^^

HD 5-series is solid series with monster performance.... And since nVidia's FERMI is still unreleased, ATI can solid it state now for Christmas market's and keep current prices and not being forced to do price battle like with previous generations.

Ati learned its lesson with HD 2-series. HD 3-series was definate imrpovement and HD 4-series was jackpot. During this time nVidia's products have been same chip's barely altered. Like 8800 GT -> 9800 GT and who naming mess.

Sure nVidia have had really good products in their market but marketing side has screwed up big time.

This being said, I got Crysis installed and I go play Quake 2!

~El~Jefe~ · Post by **~El~Jefe~** » Thu Oct 29, 2009 10:04 am

I just switched from xp pro to 7 this week.

the SAME games I played on xp look better in windows7. Quite an obvious bump in water and reflections. textures is all to do with art, so that is more about the artists, of which few seem to be employed or know what they are doing. (mostly geekatists, geeks who do artwork when artists dont find programming interesting).

Lighting is similar as everyone likes to use HDR nowadays. The speed of my card with higher quality is noticable.

Now, you can argue that this COULD have been done decently in dx9. But, when you load up your thingie, you will see a marked flatness to your dx9 mode. ATI is not looking to make your dx9 titles shine. In fact, it outright discontinued upgrading dx9 features about a year ago. I havent gotten an increase in quality or speed in way over a year. My speed dropped a bit the last few driver upgrades. I only upgrade on xp every 3-4 updates at best. There is no difference in them besides sometimes like a 1-2% slowdown over a year.

so, banking on dx9 means your drivers arent supported, the game will not be optimized for xp (not for a couple of years now). And, the video cards that do dx10 only cost more than dx11 cards. Hm.

Waiting for fermi is only good if you dont have 4 gigs ram, a strong processor and no windows 7. Otherwise, you are waiting to spend more money and not upgrade while you play your thingies all the winter and fall. Mid end, 260gtx equivalents arent going to be out until April or later.

WR304 · Post by **WR304** » Thu Oct 29, 2009 10:54 am

~El~Jefe~ wrote:I just switched from xp pro to 7 this week.

the SAME games I played on xp look better in windows7. Quite an obvious bump in water and reflections. textures is all to do with art, so that is more about the artists, of which few seem to be employed or know what they are doing. (mostly geekatists, geeks who do artwork when artists dont find programming interesting).

Lighting is similar as everyone likes to use HDR nowadays. The speed of my card with higher quality is noticable.
...

so, banking on dx9 means your drivers arent supported, the game will not be optimized for xp (not for a couple of years now). And, the video cards that do dx10 only cost more than dx11 cards. Hm.

Which games are you comparing?

I switched from Windows XP Professional to Windows 7 64 bit last week too. So far it's been running games just as well as XP did. Overall it's been quite good after a bit of tweaking.

Have you got a link where it's confirmed that Left 4 Dead 2 supports DirectX 10 please. I couldn't find anything where Valve say it actually uses it. Game developers usually like to publicise their DirectX 10/ DirectX 11 support and features as a selling point of the game if it's included.

Swish · Post by **Swish** » Sat Oct 31, 2009 1:28 pm

I don't really see the issue. I can't see the particular appeal of the GTX 260, it's a good card, but that's it. Ati's new 5800 range is really impressive, the 5700 series is ok. Ati's driver issues are more or less a thing of the past. I pick a mid-range option that is the best bang for buck, and can be cooled with an arctic cooling accelerator (plus 1 slow fan). I've switched from Ati to Nvidia and vice versa on more than one occasion.

Directx 11 can make a visual improvement with the new tesselation features, it should be a bigger step in terms of visual quality than dx9 to dx10.

I think it's too far fetched to suggest Nvidia controls the GFX-games interaction. Ati is too big a player to be ignored. When you look at benchmarks you'll see that both Nvidia and Ati have games where they shine or struggle.

~El~Jefe~ · Post by **~El~Jefe~** » Mon Nov 02, 2009 6:31 am

Nvidia.... The way it's meant to be played.

Ever see that?

Yup.

ever see:

ATI.... blah blah blah whatever ?

No.

Nvidia spends a lot of money and time to make sure they are optimized with current card selection, ATI does not. Nvidia is by far the larger company as well, and, makes more profit as well. All midrange nvidia cards will play your game at hd resolutions with maxed out settings on account of this joining up with game developers.

And, that is why im getting an ati 5770. shrug?

RBBOT · Post by **RBBOT** » Mon Nov 02, 2009 2:51 pm

I'm not sure the company size has a direct bearing - Nvidia may be twice the size of Amd/Ati, but Intel is thirty times the size of Nvidia and their graphics chips are still as useful as a chocolate teapot.

spookmineer · Post by **spookmineer** » Mon Nov 02, 2009 3:56 pm

~El~Jefe~ wrote:Nvidia.... The way it's meant to be played.

Ever see that?

Yup.

ever see:

ATI.... blah blah blah whatever ?

No.

Nvidia spends a lot of money and time to make sure they are optimized with current card selection, ATI does not. Nvidia is by far the larger company as well, and, makes more profit as well. All midrange nvidia cards will play your game at hd resolutions with maxed out settings on account of this joining up with game developers.

And, that is why im getting an ati 5770. shrug?

Had to laugh at that bit of logic.

It's funny that an AMD exec says NVidia is neglecting gamers.

A bit of a weak statement, for the reason you mentioned before.

WR304 · Post by **WR304** » Tue Nov 03, 2009 5:01 pm

~El~Jefe~ wrote:Nvidia.... The way it's meant to be played.

Ever see that?

Yup.

ever see:

ATI.... blah blah blah whatever ?

No.

Nvidia spends a lot of money and time to make sure they are optimized with current card selection, ATI does not. Nvidia is by far the larger company as well, and, makes more profit as well. All midrange nvidia cards will play your game at hd resolutions with maxed out settings on account of this joining up with game developers.

And, that is why im getting an ati 5770. shrug?

If ATI didn't spend a lot of money and time optimising their drivers to run current games well then no one would be interested in buying their graphics cards. The equivalent to the Nvidia "The way it's meant to be played" developer program was ATI's "Get in the game" as pictured below. It featured on a few games such as Half Life 2, Guild Wars and some others.

ATI "Get In The Game" marketing example

As part of AMD they're actively sponsoring current games too. A good example is Dirt 2 where AMD/ ATI are rumoured to have paid Codemasters a lot of money to include DirectX 11 support.

http://ati.amd.com/technology/crossfire/gaming.html

http://game.amd.com/us-en/play_games.aspx

Apparently you get a "ATI Premium Graphics" and also AMD processor splash screens when the new Stalker Call of Pripyat game starts up. Have a look at this thread for some other games with ATI splash screen logos too:

http://www.rage3d.com/board/showthread.php?p=1336035212

ATI Premium Graphics (picture taken from Google images rather than Stalker as it's not out in the UK yet)

~El~Jefe~ · Post by **~El~Jefe~** » Tue Nov 03, 2009 11:14 pm

"...and some others."

yes, heavy on the some.

they're sure are....

some.

Swish · Post by **Swish** » Wed Nov 04, 2009 2:19 am

~El~Jefe~ wrote:Nvidia.... The way it's meant to be played.

Ever see that?

Yup.

ever see:

ATI.... blah blah blah whatever ?

No.

Nvidia spends a lot of money and time to make sure they are optimized with current card selection, ATI does not. Nvidia is by far the larger company as well, and, makes more profit as well. All midrange nvidia cards will play your game at hd resolutions with maxed out settings on account of this joining up with game developers.

And, that is why im getting an ati 5770. shrug?

The way it's meant to be played... it's called marketing, and Nvidia may be a better marketeer than ATI.

I really don't get your point..ATI makes good cards, regardless of whether or not you believe Nvidia has better affiliations with software developers.

At the end of the day most buyers choose with their wallet, going with whichever brand offers the most bang for the buck.

~El~Jefe~ · Post by **~El~Jefe~** » Wed Nov 04, 2009 10:24 pm

At the end of the day.... that statement is getting old.

in the end, people get whatever their greedy hearts demand. And, that most often isnt bang for buck, surely not so. especially when it is a 40 dollar difference.

It is not marketing. Nvidia optimizes and works with programmers to MAKE the games. That is how that logo gets put on.

you just bought ati

Swish · Post by **Swish** » Thu Nov 05, 2009 7:47 am

~El~Jefe~ wrote:At the end of the day.... that statement is getting old.

in the end, people get whatever their greedy hearts demand. And, that most often isnt bang for buck, surely not so. especially when it is a 40 dollar difference.

It is not marketing. Nvidia optimizes and works with programmers to MAKE the games. That is how that logo gets put on.

you just bought ati

Buyers do choose with their wallet, in some markets more clearly than others. That's why mom & pops stores are in such rapid decline, that's why organically farmed meat has trouble getting a foothold etc etc...it's condidered too expensive by most.
Fashion is clear exeption, here buyers often choose with their feelings, strongly influenced by marketing and the image created by the brand.

The problem with PC hardware is that potential buyers will have to read up heaviliy to understand the real differences between cards. Most people buy a pre-assembled PC, caring very little about the brand of GPU.

I make my choices based on my needs at the time and value for money. I look at real world performance reviews (no synthetic benchmarks) for the cards. I look at powerusage and the ability to use aftermarket coolers. I have had a GF4200, 9700pro, 800XT and now a 9600GT.

You're implying that NVidia is much more in line with software developers than ATI, perhaps. It does not however seem to influence ATI's real world performance. And that is the bottom line, both brands have good cards, they're continually in a head to head battle, performance crown usually ending up with the party that gets their new generation silicon in production first.

~El~Jefe~ · Post by **~El~Jefe~** » Thu Nov 05, 2009 1:24 pm

Competition for the same product kills mom and pop. If they invented new fruit and veggies, I think they would be fine.

It is amazing how long it takes for non reference cards to come out of the 5770 line.

spookmineer · Post by **spookmineer** » Thu Nov 05, 2009 3:17 pm

~El~Jefe~ wrote:At the end of the day.... that statement is getting old.

in the end, people get whatever their greedy hearts demand. And, that most often isnt bang for buck, surely not so. especially when it is a 40 dollar difference.

It is not marketing. Nvidia optimizes and works with programmers to MAKE the games. That is how that logo gets put on.

you just bought ati

At the end of the day... That statement is old, it's not getting old, because it still works.
Price is a very powerful marketing tool, saying it's not part of marketing is just silly.

~El~Jefe~ wrote:It is amazing how long it takes for non reference cards to come out of the 5770 line.

Again, this is puzzling. You say NVidia optimises their cards etc, some of your posts sound like you're rooting for NVidia, or at least making it clear that it is the "best" choice.
And then this comment makes it seem like you're looking for an ATI card.

~El~Jefe~ · Post by **~El~Jefe~** » Thu Nov 05, 2009 9:38 pm

You didnt read the beginning of the thread!

That's the whole point of my vent. (This is my vent thread)

spookmineer · Post by **spookmineer** » Fri Nov 06, 2009 5:58 pm

Yes I did

I'm just trying to make your logic kick in. Tried in some previous posts too, but you're a stubborn one, you.

Most of us have been there: you know it's not the most sensible choice maybe, but you just have to have this one thing. Once that happens, there's no going around it anymore.
The guys from Top Gear would say: you have to own at least one Alfa at some point - you will curse it, shout at it when it breaks down, but when it works it's bliss (James May had to review one, and for every "passionate" word, he would lose a pound - he ended up emptying his wallet in the end).

Once emotion takes control over reason, emotion simply wins. No reason to vent because you will be buying it, cursing it and loving it. In some ways, it's better than to just have a "good" card.

~El~Jefe~ · Post by **~El~Jefe~** » Sat Nov 07, 2009 4:29 am

that is very true.

still no non-reference 5770's to buy. grr. powercolor hasnt popped that one to USA yet

WR304 · Post by **WR304** » Wed Dec 02, 2009 9:50 am

WR304 wrote:The problem with going for the first DirectX 11 cards to come out is that you don't actually know how well they will run games in DirectX 11. You could buy a mid range "DirectX 11" card now, only to find that when you buy a high profile DirectX 11 game, and enable all the effects, that your graphics card will simply grind to a halt.

There's quite an interesting Bit-tech.net article comparing the Dirt 2 PC demo performance in DirectX 11 and DirectX 9 modes using a ATI HD5870 graphics card. Enabling DirectX 11 saw a significant drop in frame rates compared to DirectX 9.

http://www.bit-tech.net/gaming/pc/2009/ ... k-dirt-2/3

Dirt 2 Demo on ATI HD5870 graphics card

The demo doesn't look too bad in DirectX 9 mode and runs smoothly.

Dirt 2 Demo DX9 Screenshot

spookmineer · Post by **spookmineer** » Wed Dec 02, 2009 4:42 pm

Dirt 2 demo is released.

Weighs in at 1.32 GB.

ftp://downloads.codemasters.com/demo/dirt2_pc_demo.zip