Asus Barebone s754 with external PSU!!

QuietOC · Post by **QuietOC** » Wed Mar 22, 2006 10:11 am

Hifriday wrote:I never thought of running 3DMark, IMO if you plan to do any 3D gaming even very occassional, you'd be better off getting a dedicated graphics card even a budget one.

This system is for my mother-in-law so 3D not too important. The Terminator does have lots of room for a AGP card.

3DMark 2000/2001 are the best system stress testers I have found so I always install them even if 3D gaming won't be something the system will ever being doing.

However the overall score came out to 2021 for what it's worth (6150 gave a score of 4610).

Again your VIA 3DMark score is T&L/CPU limited. Run the 6150 with software T&L and the same processor and see what the score is.

A second thought on your flickering... is the whole screen flickering or is it only the refreshing of some windows that's slow?

On the VIA it was the whole screen. The edges of the screen would actually move. Edit: On the SIS it is just a single pixel wide vertical line across the entire screen. My mother-in-law has an old 20" CRT, but I won't set it to 1600x1200, I don't think.

Hifriday · Post by **Hifriday** » Wed Mar 22, 2006 10:34 am

QuietOC wrote:Again your VIA 3DMark score is T&L/CPU limited. Run the 6150 with software T&L and the same processor and see what the score is.

Not sure I understand what you're saying here (it's late and I should be sleeping), with Software T&L I get a similar score of 4526.

teejay · Post by **teejay** » Tue Mar 28, 2006 11:56 pm

Hifriday, does the included slimline optical drive allow you to use it with the case on the side?

QuietOC · Post by **QuietOC** » Wed Mar 29, 2006 7:03 am

teejay wrote:Hifriday, does the included slimline optical drive allow you to use it with the case on the side?

Well, I can answer this. Yes, the disc snaps onto the center spindle, so it will play discs on its side or even upside down.

Also, the Pundit will NOT work properly horizontally under a normal CRT monitor. I only used it standing on its side.

QuietOC · Post by **QuietOC** » Wed Mar 29, 2006 7:19 am

Hifriday wrote:Not sure I understand what you're saying here (it's late and I should be sleeping), with Software T&L I get a similar score of 4526.

Interesting, yes, I ran the X800GTO with software T&L and got rather high numbers too. the Software T&L setting in 3DMark 2001 seems to have changed somehow--maybe it just uses SSE2 very effectively. It should show the diference the 6100/6150's real hardware vertex shader makes compared to doing those calculations with the CPU. I guess I haven't paid much attention to the actual numbers for a while <blush>.

Maybe SSE2/SSE3 performance is good enough to not need hardware vertex shading. The Xpress 200 should be faster than the 6100 then...

Mats · Post by **Mats** » Wed Mar 29, 2006 8:00 am

It's available in Sweden too. I think it's quite unique with it's small form factor and low price.
Too bad it got that 80's VCR front, the DVD looks like a cassette in the pics. Not a premium mobo, but that's no surprise.
I guess it's just like the average office PC in functionality.

teejay · Post by **teejay** » Thu Mar 30, 2006 8:55 am

QuietOC wrote:Yes, the disc snaps onto the center spindle, so it will play discs on its side or even upside down.

Also, the Pundit will NOT work properly horizontally under a normal CRT monitor. I only used it standing on its side.

Thanks! I intend to bolt one to the side of a desk, so this is good info. Adding an external USB optical drive would have driven the price up too much to warrant this little gem, considering its low pricepoint.

Hifriday · Post by **Hifriday** » Thu Mar 30, 2006 8:58 pm

Also on my Pundit, the disc snaps onto the center spindle so can be used in any orientation. However different regions seem to be bundling different drives, so what you get could be different.

As for mounting, it should work nicely bolted to a desk, but keep in mind the bolt-able/block-able side has four legs which are part of the case. It also might be possible to bolt it upside down under the desk (with the intake vents pointing to the floor)?

qviri · Post by **qviri** » Fri Mar 31, 2006 4:39 am

Hifriday wrote:Also on my Pundit, the disc snaps onto the center spindle so can be used in any orientation. However different regions seem to be bundling different drives, so what you get could be different.

IIANM, the Pundit has a laptop drive. Pretty much all laptop drives have snap-in center spindle... They have to, as a laptop does not stay perfectly horizontal, and even small changes in orientation (eg, moving it on one's lap) would send a unsecured CD crashing and scratching.

You should be good to go

QuietOC · Post by **QuietOC** » Thu Apr 20, 2006 12:06 pm

Sudhian recently published a review of the Pundit P2-AE2.

frostedflakes · Post by **frostedflakes** » Thu Jun 29, 2006 6:41 pm

Received my Pundit today, and first impression: This thing is tiny! For anybody who's been considering mini-ITX, don't! ~$250 will get you the case, power supply, motherboard, Sempron64 3000+, and ODD. My system came together for <$300 (only the Pundit was new, all the other parts were second-hand off internet forums or eBay). I don't know of any mini-ITX system that can touch that in terms of performance, efficiency, and price.

HDD hasn't arrived yet, so I'm just running Ubuntu 6.06 off the LiveCD. Once I get everything installed and set up (I'm kind of a Linux n00b, so it may take a bit... took me forever just to figure out how to get my external 56k USB modem working), I'll post up some undervolting results, power measurements, etc.

qviri · Post by **qviri** » Thu Jun 29, 2006 7:01 pm

Mmm, sounds tempting, but I can't live without my dual screens now - and a single mini-PCI slot kind of rules that out...

frostedflakes · Post by **frostedflakes** » Thu Jun 29, 2006 7:11 pm

No full-size PCI slot is definitely the biggest downside to this system IMO. But other than that, it seems pretty solid.

EDIT: Been using the system a few days, and just wanted to point out some of the bad that I've noticed.

PC3200 only runs @ PC2700. Maybe poor BIOS on ASUS part, poor memory support of my older revision D0 Sempron, or a bit of both? Have tried it in both slots, with the BIOS set to Auto and Manual -> 2:1 (DDR400) with no success. Not a big deal, as this system is just for basic tasks, but frustrating nonetheless.

Optical drive hitting the front panel. Had it happened a few times, I think it may have something to do with the HDD cage. Tweaking around with the HDD and ODD cages a bit seemed to fix the problem.

Haven't bothered with any extensive power measurements yet, but I do have it hooked up to a wattmeter, and idle is ~27w. Keep in mind, though, this is without the laptop HDD. That should add at least a few more watts at the wall.

Hifriday · Post by **Hifriday** » Wed Jul 05, 2006 6:35 am

frostedflakes wrote:PC3200 only runs @ PC2700. Maybe poor BIOS on ASUS part, poor memory support of my older revision D0 Sempron, or a bit of both?

This is odd, QuietOC posted the same problem. Are you also using Kingston memory by any chance? I had no problem running Corsair Value 1GB as well as Crucial Ballistix 512MB sticks at DDR400 and their rated SPD settings.

frostedflakes wrote:Optical drive hitting the front panel. Had it happened a few times, I think it may have something to do with the HDD cage. Tweaking around with the HDD and ODD cages a bit seemed to fix the problem.

I noticed the same problem, tightening the two HDD cage screws towards the back of the case will help. And remember not to press the power button when you want to eject

(I kept doing that at the beginning).

frostedflakes · Post by **frostedflakes** » Thu Jul 06, 2006 6:55 pm

I'm using 512MB PNY Value. As I mentioned earlier, though, it's not a huge deal. I'm sure my system surfs the net as fast at PC2700 as it would at PC3200. Not like this is for gaming or anything.

Also, here are some power measurements I took. Pretty darn good for a desktop system IMO.

Idle (800MHz 0.85V): 25w
Load P95 (1800MHz 1.225V): 45w

QuietOC · Post by **QuietOC** » Fri Jul 07, 2006 3:29 am

frostedflakes wrote:Idle (800MHz 0.85V): 25w
Load P95 (1800MHz 1.225V): 45w

The idle power number looks way too high. I expect that it is really running the Sempron at 1.1V or so at idle. What core revision is your Sempron?

Idle/Load >= 800/1800 * 0.85^2/1.224^2 = 21.4%

25W/45W = 55.6%

And you should see better than 21.4% of load CPU power even if you are running Prime 95 in the "idle" state.

qviri · Post by **qviri** » Fri Jul 07, 2006 5:46 am

This is for the entire computer. I don't think that the northbridge, the video adapter and the hard drive underclock as well as the CPU in idle...

QuietOC · Post by **QuietOC** » Fri Jul 07, 2006 7:05 am

qviri wrote:This is for the entire computer. I don't think that the northbridge, the video adapter and the hard drive underclock as well as the CPU in idle...

Northbridge=video adapter and VIA is *suppossed* to be low power.

I thought you had a 2.5" hard drive.

I'm not saying the numbers aren't impressive. The idle number just doesn't look right. Maybe the power brick/motherboard VRM's are very inefficient at such low loads?

frostedflakes · Post by **frostedflakes** » Fri Jul 07, 2006 7:45 am

It's a D0, I made it a point to avoid E3 and E6 revisions so I wouldn't have to deal with the 1.1V limit.

As far as the power numbers, who knows -- I'm just posting what the Kill-A-Watt display says. I am using a 2.5" 5400RPM drive. At that speed and voltage the CPU is probably only using a few watts, HDD a few as well, so most of the extra power draw must be coming from the motherboard and inefficiencies in the power supply.

Also, forgot to mention this earlier, but HDD cooling in the Pundit is horrible. My laptop drive runs at ~45*C most of the time. CPU and motherboard (chipset?) temps are fine.

EDIT: Did some Prime95 at 800MHz 0.875V (looks like 0.85V was not completely stable, *oops*) and the system was only using 29w from the wall. So yeah, K8M800 must be using a majority of the power, probably 10-15w in 2D.

qviri · Post by **qviri** » Fri Jul 07, 2006 8:27 am

QuietOC wrote:
qviri wrote:This is for the entire computer. I don't think that the northbridge, the video adapter and the hard drive underclock as well as the CPU in idle...
Northbridge=video adapter

And a PCI/AGP controller (okay so not in the Pundit, but I doubt they stripped the functionality out), there's also the southbridge which does IDE/SATA....

and VIA is *suppossed* to be low power.

10 watts for CPU, ~3 watts for RAM, ~3 watts for HDD leaves 9 watts (less PSU power losses) for the entire motherboard. That sounds pretty low-power to me.

frostedflakes · Post by **frostedflakes** » Fri Jul 07, 2006 8:53 am

Actually, CPU shouldn't be using hardly any power. Mobile Sempron 3100+ D0 (1.8GHz/128KB/1.25V) has a TDP of 25w, using that as a baseline TDP at 800MHz/128KB/0.875V should be 5.4w. Idle is probably only a few watts, load 4-5w I'd guess.

So K8M800 has to be big power user.

QuietOC · Post by **QuietOC** » Fri Jul 07, 2006 8:57 am

frostedflakes wrote:EDIT: Did some Prime95 at 800MHz 0.875V (looks like 0.85V was not completely stable, *oops*) and the system was only using 29w from the wall. So yeah, K8M800 must be using a majority of the power, probably 10-15w in 2D.

Those voltage numbers match my "D0" Sempron 3100+, so I think you are good in the voltage department.

Actually, CPU shouldn't be using hardly any power. Mobile Sempron 3100+ D0 (1.8GHz/128KB/1.25V) has a TDP of 25w, using that as a baseline TDP at 800MHz/128KB/0.875V should be 5.4w. Idle is probably only a few watts, load 4-5w I'd guess.

I'd put the fully-load CPU idle state power more in the 1-3W range--certainly below 5W. In real idle state it should be more like 1W. Just looking at your low state numbers seems close to this: 29W (full load) 25W (real idle) = 4W swing.

So K8M800 has to be big power user.

Neither the Nortbridge or Soutbridge even have a heatsink, so I don't think the chipset is to blame. I am chalking most of the idle power loss due to the motherboard's VRMs being unable to supply that low CPU voltage with any efficiency (below 50% even?)

But, still it is a very efficient system.

frostedflakes · Post by **frostedflakes** » Fri Jul 07, 2006 9:11 am

But with such low power draw, even large inefficiencies will make very little difference. For example, say the CPU uses 1w at idle, even at 50% efficiency that's only 0.5w lost in the conversion.

QuietOC · Post by **QuietOC** » Fri Jul 07, 2006 9:27 am

frostedflakes wrote:But with such low power draw, even large inefficiencies will make very little difference. For example, say the CPU uses 1w at idle, even at 50% efficiency that's only 0.5w lost in the conversion.

Well, maybe it is all I^2 losses. You get to the point we most of your power is being loss on signal traces instead of in the components themselves.

Linus · Post by **Linus** » Sat Jul 08, 2006 5:51 am

For a discussion of why computers draw what they do at idle, see Laptop vs. Desktop Power Consumption. Consensus was that lower PSU efficiencies at such low power draw and lack of automated shutoff for unused peripherals account for most of the difference between desktops and laptops.

For a poll of idle wattages, see How much power does your system draw at idle (poll). Hifriday's Pundit P2-AE2 system pretty much blows everything else out of the water, except integrated VIA systems that are designed from the ground up with low power in mind.

Hifriday · Post by **Hifriday** » Sat Jul 08, 2006 6:58 am

Linus wrote:Hifriday's Pundit P2-AE2 system pretty much blows everything else out of the water, except integrated VIA systems that are designed from the ground up with low power in mind.

Actually FrostedFlakes' consumption is slightly lower. Our setups are nearly identical (except mine is configured with more ram and higher idle vcore). As to low-wattage desktop champ, that might well be the Core Solo Mini; mine idled at 25VA and 41VA under load. This was in OSX but assume WinXP would be quite similar (I am still unable to find a watt-meter).

frostedflakes · Post by **frostedflakes** » Sat Jul 08, 2006 7:54 am

PF on this unit is around 0.8 at these loads, so apparent power is about the same, 31VA. Although you're running at a higher idle voltage, you're also on 230V, which is supposed to be more efficient than 120V.

EDIT: Something else I've observed, the regulation on this board seems to be all over the place. My CPU is stable at 800MHz 0.875V (actual varies, usually between 0.82V and 0.86V), but I've been forced to raise Vcore to 0.95V, as at lower settings it will occasionally droop below 0.82V, causing the system to lock up. Obviously this isn't a big deal if you're running at default settings, as there is plenty of cushion between rated voltage and lowest stable voltage, but if undervolting it's something to keep in mind.

frostedflakes · Post by **frostedflakes** » Fri Jul 21, 2006 11:05 pm

Been very pleased with the Pundit, although there's one problem I've had since day one: CD and DVD playback. When I play from a CD or DVD, the audio is very garbled/distorted (but video is fine for DVD). Oddly enough, I can rip CDs and DVDs without problems, it's only while playing directly from the disc this occurs. I haven't really put much effort into troubleshooting it, because I rarely play DVDs on my PC, and all my audio CDs are ripped to the HDD where they play back fine.

Am wondering if you guys have any idea what it could be. I haven't tried updating audio drivers yet, the files are pretty big and will take a while on dialup, so I figured I'd ask for help first. Maybe there's a setting or something that is incorrect?