New Pump CSP750 lauded for low noise

The alternative to direct air cooling

Moderators: NeilBlanchard, Ralf Hutter, sthayashi, Lawrence Lee

Edward Ng
SPCR Reviewer
Posts: 2696
Joined: Thu Dec 11, 2003 9:53 pm
Location: Scarsdale, NY
Contact:

Post by Edward Ng » Fri Jul 16, 2004 7:49 pm

Alrighty...

I just placed my preorder for a pair of CSP750s with the mounting bracket, and two bottles of that nonconductive cooling liquid that they sell at DTek Customs....

Now all I gotta' do is wait for the pumps, and then by the time I get them, I should have enough money to buy the rest of the system. I'm currently thinking:

PolarFLO TT CPU Block
PolarFLO chipset block for my 6800 GT
PolarFLO chipset block for my northbridge
Pro-Core 120 Radiator

Don't know about which reservoir yet.

Anybody got any recommendations for a reservoir? How are my choices of blocks and radiator?

My plan is to run one pump to push through the GPU block to one of the inlets on the CPU block, and have the other pump push through the northbridge block and then to the other inlet, and then have one line back to the radiator, then one line from the radiator to the reservoir, then one line out from the reservoir to a splitter, and then back to the two pumps. Anybody think a different arrangement may be better?

I'd liek to thank, in advance, anyone who can help this water cooling n00b. 8)

-Ed

HammerSandwich
*Lifetime Patron*
Posts: 1288
Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2003 3:21 pm
Location: 15143, USA
Contact:

Post by HammerSandwich » Fri Jul 16, 2004 8:56 pm

Edward Ng wrote:Anybody got any recommendations for a reservoir? How are my choices of blocks and radiator?
I'd go with a T-line or make a res from PVC pipe. The blocks are too new for comment on performance, but I trust that Polarflo's quality will be top-notch. That rad may be a little small for your heatload if you want truly silent fans. I'm curious enough to see what an SPCR reviewer makes of such a system, though, so I vote to go for it. Upgrade the rad later and report, please!
Edward Ng wrote:Anybody think a different arrangement may be better?
Well, I strongly doubt that the TT uses 2 inlets and 1 outlet, so that would kill your plan. Generally, you're probably better off running the pumps in series, though the CSP750s may break that rule. Without PQ info for the blocks, experimentation may be necessary.

Edward Ng
SPCR Reviewer
Posts: 2696
Joined: Thu Dec 11, 2003 9:53 pm
Location: Scarsdale, NY
Contact:

Post by Edward Ng » Fri Jul 16, 2004 8:58 pm

The TT's got 3 fittings; do you mean it's one inlet and dual outlets?

EDIT: Here's a link.

chylld
Posts: 1413
Joined: Fri Oct 10, 2003 4:45 pm
Location: Sydney, Australia
Contact:

Post by chylld » Sat Jul 17, 2004 1:15 am

the centre barb is the inlet, the outer barbs are the outlets.

i agree with hammer in that you're probably best off running the pumps in series with just a single loop.

space and tube-routing-permitting, i'd go res -> pump1 -> pump2 -> radiator -> cpu -> gpu -> nb -> res. of course, if you intend to review them you might as well try out many different configs so you can compare and publish results :)

Seal
Posts: 522
Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2003 4:39 am
Location: Uk

Post by Seal » Sat Jul 17, 2004 3:34 am

I would say re-evaulate the need for the NB and the GPU waterblocks. Why watercool them when you can passively cool them. Im not sure how hot that gfx card runs and whether it can be passively cooled or not but i'd say definately passively cool your nb, watercooling it will make the rest of your temps suffer and therefore the silencing power your working towards. The radiatior is a good choice as i have the same one and highly reccomend it:D, and the cpu block looks quite good.

That radior easily has the capacity to cool a powerful processor silently and the capability to cool a cpu+gpu *reasonably quietly* (although not silently) but i doubt it will have the capacity to cool a nb too.

I just rebuilt my friends watercooling system and he requested to me to remove his gfx block to improve his cpu temps and silencing power. He now passively cools his gfx card.

Edward Ng
SPCR Reviewer
Posts: 2696
Joined: Thu Dec 11, 2003 9:53 pm
Location: Scarsdale, NY
Contact:

Post by Edward Ng » Sat Jul 17, 2004 7:30 am

The machine is running a Mobile Barton at 2556MHz and a 6800 GT that I wish to o/c harder; it's a machine on the loudish side, so even if I run this thing with both the northbridge and the GPU in the water loop and use an audible fan, it will still be quieter, cooler and faster running than now.

Since I game with headphones, the prerogative isn't dead silence like Sigma One; it's just got to be quiet enough so that I can concentrate on the game instead of the racket, while achieving an o/c that I can only dream of without non-deafness-inducing air cooling. I'm confident this will be easy to achieve with water cooling. The water cooling system must be able to outcool an SP-97 with 92mm M1B at 12volts, MCX-159 northbridge cooler and stock 6800 GT cooler combined; the primary noise sources are an AcoustiFan AF120CT at 12volts and the far louder still 92mm M1B at 12volts; I'm more than confident I can get better cooling at less noise than now even with just the AcoustiFan at 7volts; the M1B is certainly the loudest component by far right now, and it will be disappearing with the water setup.

-Ed

EDIT: One typo.

Seal
Posts: 522
Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2003 4:39 am
Location: Uk

Post by Seal » Sat Jul 17, 2004 7:43 am

Oh ok i guess your degree of noise toleerance is slightly more than mine so i doubt you'd mind a little noise. I too run an overclocked mobile barton. Theyre great chips however mines overclocked on a silent setup and its running pretty sweetly :D.

Edward Ng
SPCR Reviewer
Posts: 2696
Joined: Thu Dec 11, 2003 9:53 pm
Location: Scarsdale, NY
Contact:

Post by Edward Ng » Sat Jul 17, 2004 8:11 am

It's only high in this case due to the headphones.

EDIT: The noise tolerance is high, that is.

EDIT2: Would it make more sense to run one pump through the CPU and the other pump through the northbridge and GPU blocks and then have those two lines combine into a T, then go to the radiator, then go to the reservoir, then pump? That's probably a bad idea, no? The flow rate coming out of each setup wouldn't be on the equal side, so the flow at the T-junction might be sort of...awry.

-Ed

DrCR
Posts: 538
Joined: Sun Jun 13, 2004 11:55 am

Post by DrCR » Sat Jul 17, 2004 8:53 pm

Yeah, with 3-bard waterblocks, the water enters in the center one (the center of the heat source) and exists on the outer two. The new Paraflo cpu blocks are indeed too new to determine how good they exactly are yet. I do not know of any reviews, much less any good ones.

I would recommend one c-sytem pump for the cpu, and one for the gpu and northbridge. If you have room, you could use two radiators, but that might not be the case. If not, then the following would be a good setup


2 inputs to the res, 1 res output to rad (larger ID), 2 rad outputs to:
pump -> cpu waterblock -> res input 1
pump -> gpu and chipset waterblocks (either order) -> res input 2


As these pumps are on the lower side of things, I would highly recommend the Swiftech MCW6000-A or MCW6002-A. (The only difference between the two is that the 6002 is 1/2" ID instead of 3/8" ID. The A type is for AMD processors.) These waterblocks really excell at these lower rates and there is even a large contingent who use this waterblock with higher rate (with the same or better head) setups.

Procooling source:
Image


As for the chipset and GPU blocks, the PolarFLO design for it's chipset/water block is and old and outdated. It might be a decent performer, but I know the Silverprop Nexus and Fusion blocks absolutly superb and are arguably the best out there. If you go the Silverprop route, get the Fusion HL if you need to clear ramsinks.


DrCR


_______________
www.pcper.com
www.procooling.com

Edward Ng
SPCR Reviewer
Posts: 2696
Joined: Thu Dec 11, 2003 9:53 pm
Location: Scarsdale, NY
Contact:

Post by Edward Ng » Sat Jul 17, 2004 9:10 pm

Wow! Thanks for those suggestions; I will now reanalyze my water block choices. Since I'm in no hurry, I'll probably report back on my new choices in a day or two.

I didn't realize that PolarFLO's chipset blocks are on the so-so side...

-Ed

EDIT: ***

EDIT2: Blindness...
Last edited by Edward Ng on Sun Jul 18, 2004 6:58 am, edited 1 time in total.

Bosk
Posts: 46
Joined: Thu May 20, 2004 3:36 pm
Location: Victoria, Australia

Post by Bosk » Sat Jul 17, 2004 11:42 pm

Edward Ng wrote:Wow! Thanks for those suggestions; I will now reanalyze my water block choices. Since I'm in no hurry, I'll probably report back on my new choices in a day or two.

I didn't realize that PolarFLO's chipset blocks are on the so-so side...

-Ed

EDIT: Okay, SilverProp is an Australian firm; their web site does not list either the Nexus or Fusion blocks anymore, either. Would you happen to have any recommendations for northbridge and GPU blocks that are available in the US? Anyone else?
I'm reasonably new to watercooling but might I suggest the Danger Den Maze 4 GPU Block?

Also, here is a link to Silverprop's Cyclone Fusion HL GPU Block.

I suspect you won't really need a chipset block unless you are overclocking your Barton to really really massive levels, and using one would probably only raise your CPU temps without any real benefit.

chylld
Posts: 1413
Joined: Fri Oct 10, 2003 4:45 pm
Location: Sydney, Australia
Contact:

Post by chylld » Sun Jul 18, 2004 1:25 am

i support what Bosk says. only get an NB block if you're doing some extreme fsb overclocking, and even then you don't need a fancy one. Silverprop's Fusion HL would also be my recommendation for a GPU block, although I'm using a Swiftech MCW50 with 1/2" ID -> 1/2" OD adapters and it works fine too.

Edward Ng
SPCR Reviewer
Posts: 2696
Joined: Thu Dec 11, 2003 9:53 pm
Location: Scarsdale, NY
Contact:

Post by Edward Ng » Sun Jul 18, 2004 6:44 am

FSB's at 213 with CPU Interface On; timings are loose due to the Kingston HyperX PC4000; just 8-3-3 3.0.

***

EDIT: ***

EDIT2: Nevermind; I'm blind.

Edward Ng
SPCR Reviewer
Posts: 2696
Joined: Thu Dec 11, 2003 9:53 pm
Location: Scarsdale, NY
Contact:

Post by Edward Ng » Sun Jul 18, 2004 10:46 am

Okay, in an attempt to push this thread back on topic...

I sent a couple inquiries to C-Systems in regards to submersibility of the CSP-750.
Edward Ng wrote:Are the CSP750 pumps submersible?
To which they replied:
Dan Neault M.Sc S.A.E AVT International wrote:Yes and no :)



Majority of the pumps we ship, have not been tested for complete submersion, and will likely fail.

However, this feature is available to OEM requests, and there are CSP units out there that are 100% submersible.



All our test units, are sealed for submersion, in order to ease long term tests, hence the reference in the past to submersion.



Sorry I sound like a politician, hope I answered your question.
In response to that, I sent in another e-mail:
Edward Ng wrote:Well I placed a preorder (with D-Tek Customs) for the dual CSP750s w/mounting bracket…



Let’s assume it’s not submersible. Do you recommend any sort of minor modification to make it submersible? It’s so small I may just install the entire assembly inside my reservoir.



Thanks for your help!
To which I received the following response:
Dan Neault wrote:Ok, if it’s a D-Tek model, there is a gasket between the motor housing and the center section only, in which case it is NOT submersible!



Now, you do this, and your warranty goes bye-bye, sure you understand why :)



Remove the gasket and place silicon on both sides of the case, and the channel where the wire comes out, then place the gasket back on and assemble the unit.



Make sure it’s dry, and run the unit for a few seconds out of water to make sure you haven’t got any silicon on the motor itself.



Give it a shot after that, if it works for a day, likely will work for years.
I doubt I'll be trying that, but it's good to know!

-Ed

Bosk
Posts: 46
Joined: Thu May 20, 2004 3:36 pm
Location: Victoria, Australia

Post by Bosk » Mon Jul 19, 2004 4:50 pm

I still haven't been able to find a good review for these pumps, any idea if they're quieter than an Eheim 1048 - and/or cause less vibration please Edward?

It'd take a pretty impressive pump to make me want to upgrade my (almost new) 1048, but I figure it can't hurt to ask.

Edward Ng
SPCR Reviewer
Posts: 2696
Joined: Thu Dec 11, 2003 9:53 pm
Location: Scarsdale, NY
Contact:

Post by Edward Ng » Mon Jul 19, 2004 5:13 pm

I'm actually still waiting for them to send me my pair; I just got an e-mail back, responding to my request for status report, and this is what they told me:
Danny wrote:Hi Edward,

We are just waiting for our X2 brackets to show up so we can ship the pumps.


Thanks,
Danny
Problem is, I've never heard a 1048 myself, either. :?

-Ed

HammerSandwich
*Lifetime Patron*
Posts: 1288
Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2003 3:21 pm
Location: 15143, USA
Contact:

Post by HammerSandwich » Tue Jul 20, 2004 6:10 am

Bosk wrote:I still haven't been able to find a good review for these pumps
What's wrong with the Systemcooling review?

Edward Ng
SPCR Reviewer
Posts: 2696
Joined: Thu Dec 11, 2003 9:53 pm
Location: Scarsdale, NY
Contact:

Post by Edward Ng » Tue Jul 20, 2004 9:59 am

I think he really really really really really really wants a direct listening test comparison between 1048 and CLP750.

daroach1414
Posts: 13
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2004 12:49 am
Location: Ottumwa, IA USA

Post by daroach1414 » Tue Jul 20, 2004 4:52 pm

hey bosk, i posted earlier in this thread about the sound of these things but i will go ahead and say it again.

There is little to no noise or vibration. I got one about a week or two ago and its WAY better than my old hydor L30. I have it sitting on a 2in x 2in peice of foam and you cant hear it at all. You have to touch it to see if its working.

zoob
*Lifetime Patron*
Posts: 380
Joined: Tue Apr 13, 2004 7:12 pm
Location: Toronto, ON
Contact:

Post by zoob » Tue Jul 20, 2004 5:23 pm

Woohoo! bigfootcomputers.com has them in stock for us Canadians! No more cursing at buying a Canadian made item from the States! :D I'll be ordering one shortly!

toiletduckuk
Posts: 67
Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2004 3:53 pm
Location: Hull, UK

Post by toiletduckuk » Wed Jul 21, 2004 4:26 am

any word on UK suppliers?

zoob
*Lifetime Patron*
Posts: 380
Joined: Tue Apr 13, 2004 7:12 pm
Location: Toronto, ON
Contact:

Post by zoob » Wed Jul 21, 2004 7:55 am

You may want to give D-Tek an email. I sent an email to C-Systems directly about a Canadian supplier, but D-Tek replied about a week later.

DMD
Posts: 15
Joined: Thu Jul 15, 2004 10:45 am

Post by DMD » Wed Jul 21, 2004 10:20 am

Taking a look at this from C-Systems, I'm wondering why there are no diagrams showing the pumps in series, they only show the pumps running in parallel. It was recommended in another thread that I run pumps in series, and yet this manufacturer does not even consider that in their diagrams. I'm just curious...

or... am I being retarded and do I have my series vs parallel nomenclature incorrect.

sthayashi
*Lifetime Patron*
Posts: 3214
Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2003 10:06 am
Location: Pittsburgh, PA

Post by sthayashi » Wed Jul 21, 2004 12:33 pm

DMD wrote:Taking a look at this from C-Systems, I'm wondering why there are no diagrams showing the pumps in series, they only show the pumps running in parallel. It was recommended in another thread that I run pumps in series, and yet this manufacturer does not even consider that in their diagrams. I'm just curious...

or... am I being retarded and do I have my series vs parallel nomenclature incorrect.
I know f***-all about watercooling systems, but it seems to me that a Parallel setup would be far more efficient than a Series setup. My reasoning for this is to compare pumps to fans. What's the best way to move air, to have 2 fans in parallel or in series? The answer is having 2 fans in parallel.

The reason is that fan can only move air at a finite speed, and putting them in series will not result in significantly increased airflow rates. Air does not come out of the setup twice as fast. So having it in parallel is better.

To put it into networking terms, you really can't increase the throughput by putting them in series, but you can increase the bandwidth by putting them in parallel.

Edward Ng
SPCR Reviewer
Posts: 2696
Joined: Thu Dec 11, 2003 9:53 pm
Location: Scarsdale, NY
Contact:

Post by Edward Ng » Wed Jul 21, 2004 12:52 pm

That's both true and untrue; the thing is that air is far more fluid, and changes volume with pressure. It flows cleanly and easily from one region to another.

Water inside a cooling system, on the other hand, for all intents and purposes, does not and cannot change volume, and maximum pressure is only a matter of how much the system itself can apply.

Think of it this way; torque versus horesepower. Doesn't take much torque to force air from in your case out of it. On the opposite end of things, it takes a significantly larger amount of torque to get that water flowing, and rapidly, through a tight, winding, sealed up water cooling pipework, particularly with water blocks designed to transfer as much heat as possible into the water by applying as much turbulence of the water itself as possible against the portion of the block closest to the heatsource.

-Ed

DMD
Posts: 15
Joined: Thu Jul 15, 2004 10:45 am

Post by DMD » Wed Jul 21, 2004 1:06 pm

Edward Ng wrote:On the opposite end of things, it takes a significantly larger amount of torque to get that water flowing, and rapidly, through a tight, winding, sealed up water cooling pipework, particularly with water blocks designed to transfer as much heat as possible into the water by applying as much turbulence of the water itself as possible against the portion of the block closest to the heatsource.
So, does placing two pumps in series provide more "torque" ?

sthayashi
*Lifetime Patron*
Posts: 3214
Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2003 10:06 am
Location: Pittsburgh, PA

Post by sthayashi » Wed Jul 21, 2004 1:09 pm

Edward, though that is an accurate description of the differences between air and water mechanics, I'm not sure if and how that changes the answer I gave.

Edward Ng
SPCR Reviewer
Posts: 2696
Joined: Thu Dec 11, 2003 9:53 pm
Location: Scarsdale, NY
Contact:

Post by Edward Ng » Wed Jul 21, 2004 1:26 pm

The issue depends on how restrictive your water cooling setup is as well as how much of a dead head your pumps can push (basically, the torque output of a single pump); in some setups, the restrictiveness is low enough that you will get better flow with two pumps run parallel in separate channels, particularly if each individual pump has a pretty high dead head (torque rate). On the other hand, if your setup is very kinky and restrictive, and/or your are using pumps with a lower dead head, you may actually get better flow with two pumps in series.

Basically speaking, it's not possible to say that serial is definitely better than parallel in all setups, or the other way around, either.

But then again, that's why this (water cooling) is so much an art in and of itself, is it not? :)

-Ed

DMD
Posts: 15
Joined: Thu Jul 15, 2004 10:45 am

Post by DMD » Wed Jul 21, 2004 1:34 pm

So then what should a person do to determine which setup is best? Put everything together, with your waterblocks and such, and check the flow rate/head at the point just before the pumps in both a parallel and series setup? Is that even reasonable?

Can somebody suggest a method for determining the best setup?

Edward Ng
SPCR Reviewer
Posts: 2696
Joined: Thu Dec 11, 2003 9:53 pm
Location: Scarsdale, NY
Contact:

Post by Edward Ng » Wed Jul 21, 2004 1:36 pm

If somebody can come up with an easier method, I'd appreciate it as well; right now I'm looking at the daunting task of testing the system in parallel and then testing the system in serial, and comparing the effects...

But then again, why do I have a feeling you guys (and gals) would like me to do that for you, anyway?

:lol: 8).............:?

Post Reply