Radiator Differences

TheDarkHacker · Post by **TheDarkHacker** » Tue Jun 15, 2004 5:46 pm

After much diliberation i have decided to mount my radiator on the inside top of my case. I am still unsure if i want the Danger Den Black Ice Xtreme II Dual 120mm Radiator or the Danger Den Black Ice Micro Dual 80mm Radiator. I dont know which one to use because i dont know what kind of performance difference there would be between the two. Could someone please tell me if there would be any difference between the two performance wise, if any. Here is a list of the components i am planning on putting in the system.

CPU Block: Danger Den 1/2in RBX Intel 478
GPU Block: Danger Den 1/2in Maze 4 Grahics Block
NB Block: Danger Den 1/2 Maze 4 Chipset Block
Pump: Swiftech MCP 600 Inline Pump
Reservoir: Dual 3 1/2 Bay Reservoir
Radiator: ?
Danger Den Spray Accelant Nozzels
1/2in Tygon Tubing
Water Additive: Zerex Racing Super Coolant From Danger Den

Post by **Rusty075** » Tue Jun 15, 2004 5:56 pm

A couple of points:

1. Why the reservoir?

2. The top of the case is not the ideal location for the rad. It's hot up there. How about mounting it on the floor of the case, and draw nice, cool air in through the bottom?

TheDarkHacker · Post by **TheDarkHacker** » Tue Jun 15, 2004 6:16 pm

1. Mostly i just want a reservior even if it brings down preformance a little, and it makes it easier to bleed/fill.

2. I don t know what case i want yet but it would have to be one with feet. any recommendations. i have never heard of someone mounting the radiator on the floor but i might try it.

toiletduckuk · Post by **toiletduckuk** » Tue Jun 15, 2004 6:18 pm

If you wanna shell out, then dont mind cutting it up, Lain-li all the way :] i wubs my pc-70..
/dork

TheDarkHacker · Post by **TheDarkHacker** » Tue Jun 15, 2004 6:22 pm

I like those but they are just tooo big to fit under my desk, my xaser III almost doesnt fit.

NEVER BUY A XASER III IT IS THE WORST CASE IN THE WORLD I HATE IT I DONT KNOW WHY I BOUGHT IT THAT IS WHY I AM GETTING A WATERCOOLING SYSTEM, A EXCUSE TO BUY A NEW CASE

caxis0 · Post by **caxis0** » Tue Jun 15, 2004 6:37 pm

Go dual 120, the performance increase is reported to be significant.

Post by **Rusty075** » Tue Jun 15, 2004 6:45 pm

lol.

Here's something you should read Some Useful Tips and Tricks for Water Coolers, by pHaestus @Procooling.com Read it, learn it, live it. If pHeastus told me that filling my watercooling rig with mayonnaise would improve performance...I would try it. Yes, he is that good. The man knows his watercooling

(and as someone who likes to think that they know everything...that's a powerful statement)

TheDarkHacker · Post by **TheDarkHacker** » Tue Jun 15, 2004 7:10 pm

Trust me, mayonnaise and computers are not a match made in heaven.
Trying to eat a ham sandwich with lots of mayonnaise and putting a computer together at the same time has consiquiences. But doing that does combine my 2 true loves in life. 1. COMPUTERS (SILENT ONES I MUST ADD) AND 2. EATTING EATTING EATTING EATTING EATTING DID I MENTION I LIKE EATTING FOOD IS GOOD IT MAKES YOU FAT

chylld · Post by **chylld** » Tue Jun 15, 2004 7:54 pm

rofl.

i think you need a woman

(not that that made me unlove computers or anything)

bobkoure · Post by **bobkoure** » Wed Jun 16, 2004 7:32 am

Procooling is a great site - lots of good info.
However, a warning - a couple of the posters there are extreme-cooling hobbyists who don't seem to get quiet/silence as an appropriate goal. Please don't let them discourage you as there's lots to be learned there.
The gestalt of the site is a bit more rigorous than other forums - expect to be challenged if you post something as a statement of fact without being able to back it up. IMHO this is a good thing as it makes the postings there more trustworthy.

With all that said, I would strongly suggest you at least consider a heater core. See the procooling forums for the pros and cons...
Bob

TheDarkHacker · Post by **TheDarkHacker** » Wed Jun 16, 2004 12:40 pm

I have a woman. here name is sarah. she is a 3.06 ghz pentium 4. i thought all girls liked gold but she doesnt. when i gave here that new deep impact limited edition which is gold plated she hated it. now she runs very hot. but hopfully she will like the watercooling system to cool he down.

I am such a geek

chylld · Post by **chylld** » Wed Jun 16, 2004 3:37 pm

<FLoRa> [18:07] <FLoRa> Gfs arent that great
<FLoRa> [18:07] <GregZ0r> lol
<FLoRa> [18:07] <GregZ0r> how would i know
<FLoRa> [18:08] <GregZ0r> come to think about it flora, how would you know
<FLoRa>
<bundy> gf are overrated
<bundy> *gf's
<FLoRa> You have a gf!
<bundy> yeah, i'd rather a radeon
<bundy> Video: Plug and Play on nVidia GeForce3 Ti 200 (1024x768x16bpp 85Hz)
<bundy> piece of shit thing
<FLoRa> You idiot....Im talking about girlfriends

bobkoure: i know exactly what you're talking about. i recently got blasted for recommending an eheim 1048 pump as opposed to the noisier 1250 model on the OCAU forums. truth is, i said the 1048 is fine in such a setup because i am using one right now and it's brilliant. the "hardcore" users flamed me saying that my system simply doesn't work well (very suspect for them to say that when my system does work well) and that new users should skip the 1048 altogether and get the 1250.

it's remarkable how far those users are willing to go to get a point across, let alone such a biased and unjustified one.

bobkoure · Post by **bobkoure** » Wed Jun 16, 2004 4:35 pm

it's remarkable how far those users are willing to go to get a point across, let alone such a biased and unjustified one.

Please don't misunderstand - I like procooling a lot. The folks there who don't understand that engineering is a matter of making compromises between goals and that low noise is a legitimate goal are in a very small minority (and maybe I'm even broadeining their hoirzons a bit.)
I mostly wanted to recommend the site and make sure no one here was put off in case that happened.
Speaking of low noise as a goal, yes I realize that I'm not nearly as dedicated to silence as many folks here (sort of like politics - I see myself as left-wing here in the US - go to Aus and I'm a bloody right-winger - it's same thing going between forums: I'm a moderate here...

)

moparchris · Post by **moparchris** » Thu Jun 17, 2004 1:07 am

TheDarkHacker wrote:I have a woman. here name is sarah. she is a 3.06 ghz pentium 4. i thought all girls liked gold but she doesnt. when i gave here that new deep impact limited edition which is gold plated she hated it. now she runs very hot. but hopfully she will like the watercooling system to cool he down.

I am such a geek

thats pretty damnwell sad lol

and yeah procoolings an awesome site, i hang around the waterblock design part of the forums quite a bit

and ahh yeah.. consider a heatercore

bobkoure · Post by **bobkoure** » Thu Jun 17, 2004 8:07 am

The only reason I can think of to not use a heatercore is if you're planning to use a 120mm fan undervolted to ~5V (or less).
Even the thicker axial fans don't generate much pressure - and at very low speed they actually have a problem generating enough pressure to get airflow through a 2" thick core - so one of the "thin" BlackIce radiators might be in order.
Don't expect to get cooler-than-aircooling - just quieter.

moparchris · Post by **moparchris** » Thu Jun 17, 2004 8:52 pm

bobkoure wrote:The only reason I can think of to not use a heatercore is if you're planning to use a 120mm fan undervolted to ~5V (or less).
Even the thicker axial fans don't generate much pressure - and at very low speed they actually have a problem generating enough pressure to get airflow through a 2" thick core - so one of the "thin" BlackIce radiators might be in order.
Don't expect to get cooler-than-aircooling - just quieter.

arent some of those ready to use radiators actually heatercores with barbs ready for watercooling ?

chylld · Post by **chylld** » Thu Jun 17, 2004 8:56 pm

not always, there are subtle differences between most heatercores and your average watercooling-marketed radiator.

the concept is the same, but the 2 main differences are:

core depth/thickness - heatercores are usually thicker because they're backed by powerful blower fans that have a lot of pushing power. wc radiators are thinner to accommodate the weaker axial fans.

fin density - heatercores are usually much denser than wc radiators. with my black ice extreme, i could pretty much see right through it if i tilted it to the right angle. my vk commodore heatercore is much denser and i have a lot of trouble finding an angle at which i can see anything through it. again, this is because they're suited to different fans.

bobkoure · Post by **bobkoure** » Fri Jun 18, 2004 4:01 am

chylld wrote:...this is because they're suited to different fans.

Actually, heater cores aren't suited to axial fans at all, but squirrel cage blowers. Here's a really small blower (really a "motorized impeller") I mounted on a heater core

BTW, the plastic shroud is from Coolingworks - and makes using a heater core nearly as easy as using a prebuilt-for-PC-cooling radiator. It's normally setup so you can just bolt a 120mm fan onto it - I just masked the opening off with a bit of sheet aluminum.
I've dubbed it the "little-ass blower" as it doesn't pull nearly as much air as the "big ass blowers" the folks over on procooling are using (but it's pretty quiet - but not as quiet as a panaflo L1A at 5V, which would not generate enough pressure to get decent cooling from this heater core)
Bob

chylld · Post by **chylld** » Fri Jun 18, 2004 4:11 am

nice, very nice

it's good to see people making steps towards using heatercores the way they were designed to be used.

bobkoure · Post by **bobkoure** » Fri Jun 18, 2004 6:51 am

As far as I can tell, there's only one company that's making any effort to figure out why cage blowers are noisy and to design a quieter one (japanservo) and their products don't seem to be available to the non-OEM market (and they don't seem to sell just the motorized impeller part even to that market).
So, the blowers we get are not optimized for silence - things could be lots better.
On the bright side - I got the one in the picture for US$4 from AllElectronics, had all the other "bits" laying about, other than screws and sheet aluminum, so my investment in this experiment was well under $20.

Anyway, if you look at some "fan curves" for both axial fans and blowers you'll see that the blowers don't move as much volume but at higher pressure - and the pressure doesn't drop off as precipitously when reducing voltage (so reducing RPMs) as with axials - so they are very appropriate for quiet water cooling - just wish the "most quiet" technology was available to us...

chylld · Post by **chylld** » Fri Jun 18, 2004 2:29 pm

how about we make some then

can we just modify an existing axial fan but replace the fins with blower style ones?

bobkoure · Post by **bobkoure** » Fri Jun 18, 2004 7:29 pm

chylld wrote:can we just modify an existing axial fan but replace the fins with blower style ones?

Sure would be nice if it worked that way. The two kinds of fans operate on completely different principles (axial fans are wings and use coanda effect to "scoop" air, cage fans are more centrifugal fans - although there may be an element of "lift"). Axial fans blow straight through. Cage blowers exhaust out the sides (a bit like a "plate" compressor in a small turbojet).
The electric motor characteristics are different, too.
Probably easier to find the "perfect blower" and see what can be done about the fit

chylld · Post by **chylld** » Fri Jun 18, 2004 7:39 pm

by that i meant simply taking the motor of a quiet fan and then replacing the fins completely. i think it's very possible...

think.. take a regular axial fan, and break off all the fins (but not the hub itself.) now, make a blower style fan assembly (centrifugal thingos) and glue this onto the hub. this way the existing fan body serves as a shroud.

i'll draw up a picture to make my intentions clear:

edit: thinking about it, i don't see how this would fail. the only limitation that i can think of atm is that you can't use it adjacent to anything else, it pretty much has to be this one blower only on the radiator.

moparchris · Post by **moparchris** » Sat Jun 19, 2004 2:58 am

hmm, i wanan try using some of those blowers but im not sure about the noise

http://forums.extremeoverclocking.com/s ... ge=1&pp=20 i prettymuch want something the same as Cathars, will something like that run at 5v ? cause if it can move around 100CFM at 7v and be pretty quiet it might be alright at 5 ?

chylld · Post by **chylld** » Sat Jun 19, 2004 3:25 am

i've always been wondering what cathar looks like

nova · Post by **nova** » Sat Jun 19, 2004 2:12 pm

chylld wrote:i've always been wondering what cathar looks like

Me too

peteamer · Post by **peteamer** » Mon Jul 12, 2004 12:08 pm

Well, you boys reminded me of an idea I had a while ago and have provoked me to finish it.

I have for a long time used a blower fan to cool my CPU and like it cept it is a bit noisier than I would like. No surprise as I'm using an ex-copier fan designed to run @ 24V and be in service for years, so I guess noise was not a consideration.

I use a ~20 year old Nidec Gamma 32 but at 7V. fairly quiet, the noise it makes is a kind of purry rumble, not offensive but hearable. I had often wondered the plausibility of driving the fan by another quieter means much like you've discussed. Having come across this thread at the weekend I decided to 'get round to it'.

Not willing to sacrifice a 'good' fan, I dug around in the loft and found a 24V copier axial fan that I didn't care about.

. After much scratching of goatie I decided to use my standby 'not used because it was noisier' blower so as to do a much 'fuller' experiment.

To cut a long story short with the cover off of the blower fan it turned out the rotor/motor assembly was a permanent fixture and I had to convince the assembly and housing to lead seperate lives. Upon inspection of the rotor/motor unit I found the coil support bearings were bonded to the axle, I could move the magnets off of their mounting in the rotor hub but only move them 2-3mm as the coil assembly then stopped progress.

Nothing else for it I supported the rotor and... persueded the axle to 'leave home' with my finest 'kinetic energy transfer tool'. Now I had a rotor, magnet and coil seperate. Mr 24V axial fan then ... 'lost' his blades which left me pondering how to make up the difference in size between the bladless axial hub and the larger internal diameter of the rotor hub...

As luck would have it by putting the magnet back in the rotor hub, a nice interference fit between the two was achieved, also nicely avoiding the need to find a way to ensure centering of the two.

. The three axial fan motor mounting 'legs' were dispatched leaving just the circular base plate to the motor. Contact adhesive and a cardboard 'spacer' achieved the required ride height once back in the rotor housing and I was good to go.

Now to test it before installing it. At the same 7V it was spinning and pushing more air than the old motor and was much quieter. Sucsess. (Put it this way... to hear if it's noisy, I have to hold my hair back lest it gets sucked into the fan..

) Out with the old blower and in with the new. Now in the comp. I can't hear it unless I tell Girlie to not make any noise and sit like a goon with my head up the comps. bum so to speak. Even then the airflow noise is very little as with blowers and the motor has just a gentle mix between purr and RRRRRRR if you see what I mean. (But very quietly) From operating distances, inaudible. Even better, my CPU temp (2400+ XP) whilst folding dropped from 52C to 43C. Tonight with ambients of 20C I'm getting 41C as measured by MBM.

Apologies for the long post but I wasn't intelligent enough to take 'during' photos (and wouldn't be able to post them if I did) so have had to use far too many words to try to 'paint' a picture. The blower looks just like it did before as it ended up basically having a motor swap.

Hope this answers some questions you brought up and has inspired you to go the blower route. They are the poor cousins and until some one puts a decent motor in one, axial fans will be a better choice in terms of noise. Blowers do have advantages... if you can get past the size obstacle. (Just to further the picture, mine lives between the CPU and optical drives over the RAM blowing air across the heatsink and out through the space left by the blanking plate for motherboard connectors and perhaps through the hole left by the now living outside PSU.)

Well.. having re-read this, it makes sense... but I know what I'm talking about...

Any questions, just ask... (or PM me and tell me to crawl back under my stone..

).

Regards

Pete

mpteach · Post by **mpteach** » Mon Jul 12, 2004 12:32 pm

heres a quiet blower being designed for computers http://www.torringtonresearch.com/computer.html

peteamer · Post by **peteamer** » Mon Jul 12, 2004 12:44 pm

Good link.. couldn't find any specs... What do they mean by quiet?...

bobkoure · Post by **bobkoure** » Mon Jul 12, 2004 1:28 pm

peteamer wrote:Any questions, just ask...

So post a picture...?