First time water cooling and silencing, need suggestions

The alternative to direct air cooling

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eMadman
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Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2005 5:04 pm

First time water cooling and silencing, need suggestions

Post by eMadman » Wed Aug 10, 2005 6:25 pm

I know it's a lot to read through, but I could use some advice and suggestions.

After working my butt off for the past 2 months, I managed to scrounge up the cash for my new PC just a few weeks ago. Just today, I got my latest paycheck and I'm ready to get my system silent and wet.

System Specs:
CPU: Athlon64 3500+ (venice core)
Mobo: MSI K8N Neo4 Platinum
Video Card: Sapphire Radeon x800XL
Hard Drives: 2x200gb Seagate 7200.8 mounted on the rubber grommets included with the case.

current thermal setup:
Case: Thermaltake Tsunami
2x120mm (thermaltake) + 1 additional in the PSU (OCZ Modstream).
1x92mm side intake
stock cpu cooler
stock GPU cooler (2nd loudest fan I have)
I replaced the Northbridge cooler with a Vantec Iceberq (for temporary use). The stock one was the loudest fan in the system and could be heard in the next room. The new one is also louder than the rest of the system, but nowhere near the deafening high pitched scream of the stock fan. I couldn't find a passive cooler at any local stores so for the time being this will do.

For thermaltake fans, I'm surprised that they're as silent as they are. Their noise is completely muffled by the sound of my Northbridge cooler. My video card comes close to the northbridge, but only when it's under stress (gaming).

Temperatures (Idle/Stress)
CPU: 42 / 50ish (Currently experiencing hdd failure so I have to by memory here)
System: 38 / 40ish - doesn't seem right to me. The exhaust air is relatively cool.
Video card: mid-low 40's / 60+ (I think it maxes around 70-75 degrees)
HDD: low 30's / 37

Image

As far as noise is concerned, this pc is audible from nearly 20 feet away in a near silent environment. There's a lot of high rpm fans in here and they're probably pretty inefficient. I want to begin this project by first silencing as much as I can without spending unnecessarily (keeping in mind that this system will likely run wet). On that end, I plan on starting with the noisiest parts that come to mind with the lowest cost to replace - starting with the new Northbridge cooler with a zalman passive cooler. Their blue one looks perfect, and now that I've seen pictures of it installed, I'm not *too* worried about the space constraints between my video card and the northbridge.

Next, I plan on replacing my case fans. The Thermaltake ones are nice, but they're probably more noisy than the better brands out there. To be honest, I should probably do a finger test on my PSU fan beforehand because I'm certain that it's also making make sure that it's not making too much noise as well.

My first predicament here is in which case fans to get. I'm ok with my rear exhaust not being lit up by LEDs since I can toss in a cold cathode, but I'd prefer to avoid anything that really detracts from the aesthetics of the case (ie, bright orange). Currently, www.bigfootcomputers.com and www.adpmods.com carry Panaflo fans. I've heard that they're hit or miss in terms of quality. Is this true? Unfortunately, Panaflo is also the only fan that bigfoot carries that most people would consider as being really silent. That said, would I go for the Medium variety or their "Ultra" fans?

Back on the topic of Nexus, is there anyplace that carries those or a similar variety in black at a reasonable price?

Another thing I could add is some Dynamat (automotive grade). Would it be worth the $25-30? It is after all an aluminum case, I'd like to know if the automotive stuff work out since it's designed for subwoofer enclosures.

--

Now, on to the water

For water blocks, I plan on using the Danger Den TDX and a DD Maze4 for the radeon.

The pump will be either a Swiftech MCP-350 or a Danger Den DDC-12v. Both appear to be exactly the same pump from the pictures and both cost the same.

For the radiator, my research leads me to believe that a heatercore will be the ideal choice. For my case, I'm thinking of either a 120mm sized core or a dual 120. The easy way out is the single 120 size, but I can't decide where to mount it. The hdd bay is removable and that would probably be the ideal place to mount it since there's already a 120mm intake, but I'd like to have some air blowing over my hard drives. The rear exhaust is also an option for rad mounting since the exhausting air is relatively cool. Would the slightly higher temp cause a hit on cooling performance?

My other option is a dual 120 heatercore. I considered mounting something like that at the top of my case, but I use the top of my case to hold cds and my external HDD sits up there since I don't want it sitting near my speakers. That leaves a side mount as an available option. The problem I see there is the protrusion sticking out of the side of my case as well as the fact that I've never done any drilling into metal before. This is also a fairly nice and expensive case so I don't want to cause any damage by screwing up.

Then again, if I side mount, I have space for a much larger radiator which could potentially result in the ability to passively cool the computer.. Any suggestions if I go that route?

Is there a major cooling benefit in going from a 120mm core to a dual120 heater core? Is it worth the drilling effort? More importantly, would either be efficient enough to be powered off a single (or dual) 120mm fan undervolted to around 6 or 7v. I'd also like to ask if the dual120 would be efficient enough for completely fanless operation.

For my budget, lets say I can do around $350 canadian. That should be sufficient for most of what I have in mind I think...
Last edited by eMadman on Thu Aug 11, 2005 4:10 am, edited 1 time in total.

cotdt
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Post by cotdt » Wed Aug 10, 2005 6:38 pm

DDC's tend to not start up sometimes. Get a CSP-MAG instead which is both quieter and stronger, not to mention cheaper and being something that actually works. Mod your Modstream PSU with a quieter fan as well. They were meant to be modded. As far as radiators go, you can either use 120.1 or 120.2, I think 120.1 is more than enough. Any 120.1 is stronger than XP-120, which says a lot about the power of watercooling. My own radiator is larger than your computer, but it's passive so it had to be big.

Ruiner
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Joined: Thu Jul 14, 2005 12:41 pm

Post by Ruiner » Tue Sep 13, 2005 12:38 pm

Heater cores are thicker than PC based water cooling rads, and therefore need higher pressure (read noiser) fans to get decent airflow.

Go with a black ice pro or a pa160, the latter being larger/quieter/higher capacity/pricier.

DougG
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Joined: Sun May 08, 2005 2:25 am

Post by DougG » Wed Sep 14, 2005 12:46 pm

Stay away from DDC, just read other peoples reports at Danger Den.

eMadman
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Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2005 5:04 pm

Post by eMadman » Wed Sep 14, 2005 12:51 pm

alright, I'll avoid the DD. How's the CSP-MAG stack up against the new swiftech pump?

DougG
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Post by DougG » Thu Sep 15, 2005 1:57 pm

You mean the D5?
D5 is bigger, more flow and higher head.

It is also noisy and will not effect your temps in any measured way.

Don't waste your money

MikeC
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Post by MikeC » Thu Sep 15, 2005 2:15 pm

Why watercool your rig?

Here's why not:
1) A lot more $
2) Definitely not quieter, usually noisier
3) A lot more complex, not as reliable, more risk of catastrophe with many more interdependent parts
4) Requires more maintenance

There are 2 complete, ambitious, expensive WC kit samples that I've received for review. After much thought & discussion, they are being returned, not reviewed. Because without even installing one, it's very clear there is absolutely no way either can be as quiet as even a modestly quiet aircooled system. I've made the decision that aside from truly quiet WC setups such as the Zalman Reserator, SPCR will not tackle WC reviews at all. There's just not enough silencing benefit. Reviews of such devices will take too much of our scarce resources (time & energy) away from the core focus of SPCR.

The main advantage comes only if you seek to OC an already hot system. Then, to keep temps manageable, WC may be the only choice.

An A64 3500+ is relatively cool, and an x800xl seems manageable with aftermarket add-on HS. So why bother with WC?

eMadman
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Post by eMadman » Thu Sep 15, 2005 4:22 pm

I also know very well that a Thermalright XP-120 will cool my CPU quite well and pretty quietly with one of my extra yate loons. I also know that the Zalman video card cooler will be far more than sufficient to cool my video card and remove the jet turbine noise it makes under stress.


The simple reason for my wanting to water cool is for experimental purposes and to say "yea, I've done it". I built this machine knowing I'll be stressing the hell out of it over the next few years through game/software reviews, overclock tests, and in graphic arts. I know it can be made pretty quiet and overclockable with air cooling, but why do that if I can get a little wet and gain a tiny bit more overclock capability :D

HaloJones
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Location: London, England

Post by HaloJones » Wed Sep 21, 2005 7:09 am

MikeC wrote:Why watercool your rig?

Here's why not:
1) A lot more $
2) Definitely not quieter, usually noisier
3) A lot more complex, not as reliable, more risk of catastrophe with many more interdependent parts
4) Requires more maintenance
My gast is flabbered, to be honest!

1) A lot more $

really? because of the price of kits? that's an argument against expensive kits not watercooling per se. buying dynamat and specific cases and heatsinks and hard to find fans etc etc isn't exactly cheap is it?

a waterblock is the same price as a good heatsink. pumps are easily relatively cheap. a car radiator from a scrapyard is cheap

2) definitely not quieter, usually noisier

this is highly contentious. For the same cooling ability water-cooling is surely quieter as it is able to re-locate the heat to a much larger surface area. I know of many water-coolers who use passive car radiators with no fans whatsoever. what could be quieter?

3) A lot more complex, not as reliable, more risk of catastrophe with many more interdependent parts

hmm, harder to argue but the increased risk still doesn't represent a high number of failures. a stupid person will screw up their system no matter what they're trying to build. the stupid builder who mounts his heatsink badly and blows up the chip the first time he turns on the computer is no different from the stupid builder who forgets to use hose clamps. water-cooling is not for the lazy or careless but can easily be built to high reliability and safety standards.

4) Requires more maintenance

really? I run mine 24/7 at full load (folding of course) and do no maintenance that is specific to water-cooling. I use the hoover on the front intakes of the PC to clear dust from my filters but that still needs to be done on an air-cooled machine.


Bottom line: I think you're wrong and water-cooling is a fine way to achieve a silent PC.

Ruiner
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Post by Ruiner » Wed Sep 21, 2005 7:23 am

Another plus for watercooling is it allows relative silence for high power, overclocked, overvolted gaming rigs.
You won't get that with air cooling.

MikeC
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Post by MikeC » Wed Sep 21, 2005 7:43 am

The main advantage comes only if you seek to OC an already hot system. Then, to keep temps manageable, WC may be the only choice.

mattthemuppet
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Post by mattthemuppet » Tue Nov 08, 2005 4:39 pm

why not start with undervolting the CPU (less heat produced) and your fans (less heat to get rid of). Some MBs even let you undervolt the NB! Then, if you can get the noise floor down to a level where you can hear your HDD seeks, suspend your HDD(s). All that's pretty much free. Yate Loons are good alternatives to Nexus fans - they spin slightly faster but undervolt well.

Then, if you need quieter (or faster) check out watercooling?

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