What's so special about the Reserator?

supastar42 · Post by **supastar42** » Fri May 12, 2006 8:20 am

Can someone explain to me the fascination of the Reserator as a water cooling system.

IMV, it is seriously flawed as an engineering design. A RESERvoir is a body of water in a tank. A radiATOR is a device for rejecting heat. (Wrongly named - it is actually a convector.) Put the two together and you have the RESERATOR.

But the best design for a radiator is one with a minimal internal passageway and the maximum external surface area, which is achieved with fins. This ensures that the flowing water is cooled most efficiently. Here the reserator fails as you have a large circular tank with minimal fins. The bulk of the heat will stay with the water and be recirculated.

The proof of this poor performance is shown in the Xbits Lab test of 18 systems. The Reserator and Reserator+ came 16th and 17th. At 100W input - not even the peak power of a P4 - the temps ran at 59 and 63C. (Yes, the upgraded model was worse than the earlier one) That's hotter than most users would expect with air cooling! Add a modern graphics card and the temps would be off the wall.

Or am I missing something?[/img]

peteamer · Post by **peteamer** » Fri May 12, 2006 9:54 am

supastar42 wrote:...

1/ A reservoir can also be a hole dug in the ground... or all sorts of other containers. The word is a derivative of reserve...

2/ A radiator does not 'reject' heat... it 'radiates' heat, hence the name (though mainly by convection... argue that one if you want...)

3/ You're right about the design of a radiator... but that has little capacity for reserve cooling medium in the sizes we're talking about.

This is where the reserator combines both attributes in a reasonable compromise that serves it's design brief well...

I run a 1M WACC ('reserator' style but with grooves on the inside also) radiator resevoir. It has no pump, only convection currents taking water to the top inlet, the cooling water flowing down the tube, exiting at the bottom and then circulating to the overclocked 6600 NVidia card and overclocked Thoroughbred B XP2400+ (NOT a cool running chip!!).
This allows my CPU to run at 53-54C in an ambient of 21-24C with only air convection to cool the WACC whilst running Folding @ Home 24/7.

As you can imagine mine is all but silent... (well, I assume the flowing water must make some noise... but I have to confess I can't hear it myself... )

The proof of these sorts of systems working well, certainly in terms of quiet and sufficient cooling, is in all the posts from owners on these forums who are happy with them... (I take it you realise you're posting on Silent PC review and not LowestTemps&MaximumNoise Review?

)

supastar42 wrote:Or am I missing something?

Dunno... have a look at the rest of this water cooling forum and see what you think...

zds · Post by **zds** » Fri May 12, 2006 12:16 pm

supastar42 wrote:Can someone explain to me the fascination of the Reserator as a water cooling system.

It's (reasonably) cheap, ready all-in-one solution that is able to cool modern PCs with very little noise. As such, it's almost one of the kind, as all the other all-in-one WC kits I know of contain fans for cooling. On top of that, it moves the heat straight out of the case, lessening need for case airflow.

supastar42 wrote: But the best design for a radiator is one with a minimal internal passageway and the maximum external surface area, which is achieved with fins. This ensures that the flowing water is cooled most efficiently. Here the reserator fails as you have a large circular tank with minimal fins. The bulk of the heat will stay with the water and be recirculated.

Yes and no. First of all, the most important point: it does the job and does it well. I have cooled my Athlon64 3500+ / X800 XT system with Reserator for year and half and there has been no issues with Reserator not being able to remove the heat. In fact, my CPU temperature rarely exceeds 30 degrees Celcius, which is some 40 degrees below the area where k8 CPU starts to overheat (these results from the non-calibrated sensor).

So in essence: if you want to cool your system silently and do not want to select individual parts yourself, Reserator does the job, and does it pretty well.

To the points you mentioned: First, Reserator surface area is *not* minimal, 1.274m2 in total, which is more than enough to dissipate the 150 watts of heat produced by CPU and GPU of a silent system.

Second, nothing demands for the radiator to be restrictive. Reserator tower has some 0.15m2 worth surface touching the water, which is a lot more than any waterblock and I am guessing also more than most of the regular radiators.

Third, flowing water will mix itself inside the reservoir. It does not have to be exactly the coolest water on every round, since water has very high heat capacity - each round in the loop increases temperature just few tenths of degrees. And as water mixes up quite easily when stirred and warm water tends to rise upwards, water inside the Reserator tower stays at same enough level.

supastar42 wrote: The proof of this poor performance is shown in the Xbits Lab test of 18 systems. The Reserator and Reserator+ came 16th and 17th. At 100W input - not even the peak power of a P4 - the temps ran at 59 and 63C. (Yes, the upgraded model was worse than the earlier one) That's hotter than most users would expect with air cooling! Add a modern graphics card and the temps would be off the wall.

Did you miss their summary of the Reserator? Here is what they said:

Excellent pipes, simple assembly and near-total silence at work! This best-performance, stylish-looking passive-mode water-cooling system is worth every cent of its price of $245.

I would hardly consider that as "poor".

To summarize it, Reserator is not made to enable mad overclocks, but to replace three fans with single pump, and that job it does very well.

Post by **Rusty075** » Fri May 12, 2006 12:26 pm

I would be willing to bet that Supastar42 is a much bigger fan of Innovatek's take on the passive radiator concept, the HTCS, though even with its "minimal internal passageway and the maximum external surface area, which is achieved with fins" it actually performs worse than the Reserator.

Just a guess.

zds · Post by **zds** » Fri May 12, 2006 12:30 pm

Ahh, forgot to mention this: fin density and thickness vary greatly depending on how they are cooled. The less forced air flow, the thicker fins and wider spacing. As Reserator is meant to cool passively, it sports thick fins spaced pretty far from each other.

nici · Post by **nici** » Fri May 12, 2006 2:04 pm

Simple. There is better performing systems out there, but they are not as easy to setup or as quiet if they have a fan.

My Res cools a 3700+ at full tilt 24/7, an X800GTO@+XT PE speeds, the nF4 Chipset, and has cooled even two HDDs in the same loop. Temps were perfectly fine, and considering that there was no fans and the HDDs were enclosed in thick foam and still stayed at ~35c, it was pretty much dead silent. Passive PSU.

Reserator + passive PSU= the fast and easy way to very very quiet. Might even be cheaper than aircooling, depending on how many heatsink and fan combos you go thru in the process

~El~Jefe~ · Post by **~El~Jefe~** » Mon May 15, 2006 11:43 pm

nici wrote:Simple. There is better performing systems out there, but they are not as easy to setup or as quiet if they have a fan.

My Res cools a 3700+ at full tilt 24/7, an X800GTO@+XT PE speeds, the nF4 Chipset, and has cooled even two HDDs in the same loop. Temps were perfectly fine, and considering that there was no fans and the HDDs were enclosed in thick foam and still stayed at ~35c, it was pretty much dead silent. Passive PSU.

Reserator + passive PSU= the fast and easy way to very very quiet. Might even be cheaper than aircooling, depending on how many heatsink and fan combos you go thru in the process

INDEED!!

one stop, 350 phantom, zalman reserator. Get the new GPU sink and the OLD CPU sink and bam, you are done besides for one case fan somewhere to help it just cool the odd parts.

Slaugh · Post by **Slaugh** » Tue May 16, 2006 9:16 pm

Zalman has never claimed that the Reserator is intended for overclocking. The Reserator performs as good as the best aircooling solutions, but without the noise... And this is why the Reserator is so popular here!

My Reserator keeps my Athlon 64 3400+ and my Radeon X800XT PE at very good temperatures, even under heavy loads... and it does it silently. Right now, the CPU idles at 31Â°C and the GPU at 35Â°C with Cool'n'Quiet enabled. The CPU barely reaches 50Â°C after a few hours on heavy load. Sure, it takes more room than other compact watercooling systems and it's not designed for strong overclocking, but it gives me the cooling I need and the silence I want!

~El~Jefe~ · Post by **~El~Jefe~** » Fri May 19, 2006 9:21 pm

My chip is NEVER under 39 degrees at idle with a reserator. I am a fanatic on how I mount the heatsink as well. I have the original Res1 cpu block (which works better) and I use Arctic clean and AS5 thermal goo with a razor blade. Reserator i use 5-7% water wetter and pure steam distilled poland spring water. I have the best thermal properties you could have in a water cooling system, as it is near straight water.

on 24/7. I have no idea how people make claims of sub 35 degree temps. my proc is 4200 x2 yet cool and quiet is on so it idles at 3800 speeds. shrugs??

The cpu goes up to around 50 at extended gaming load, regular gaming it goes up to 46-7 ish.

wim · Post by **wim** » Fri May 19, 2006 11:14 pm

supastar42 wrote:Can someone explain to me the fascination of the Reserator as a water cooling system.

IMV, it is seriously flawed as an engineering design. A RESERvoir is a body of water in a tank. A radiATOR is a device for rejecting heat. (Wrongly named - it is actually a convector.) Put the two together and you have the RESERATOR.

But the best design for a radiator is one with a minimal internal passageway and the maximum external surface area, which is achieved with fins. This ensures that the flowing water is cooled most efficiently. Here the reserator fails as you have a large circular tank with minimal fins. The bulk of the heat will stay with the water and be recirculated.

hi, i suppose, if the radiator was made for maximum heat transfer per unit flow then the radiator would be more restrictive and a stronger (noisier) pump would be needed. you are correct that much of the heat will stay with the water and be recirculated, but i don't think this is a design flaw in the case of the reserator - in steady state, the surface area of the thing only needs to be large enough to dissipate (at least) as much energy, per unit time, as the cpu is putting into the loop. the temperature of the water is not so important here (perhaps higher water temperatures would even make the convection work faster)

considering the design goal was for sufficient cooling at minimum noise, i don't agree that zalman's reserator is 'seriously flawed as an engineering design'

supastar42 · Post by **supastar42** » Sat May 20, 2006 12:45 am

It doesn't follow that, just because a radiator is correctly designed, you will need a larger or a noisier pump. Your comments would be valid for excessive flow rates but that is another subject.

Yes, indeed, the temperature of the surface of the Reserator will rise until the heat convected from it matches the heat input. In the Xbit Labs test, with the minimum power input of 100w, barely enough to cover a decent CPU and graphics card, the Res 1 ran at 59C and the Res+ at 63C.

In my experience users are unhappy if their CPU runs over 60C and happy if it runs under 50C. These Lab test temperatures would be lower with an Arctic-Cooling air cooled product, at a tenth of the cost and with a 6 year guarantee. And as quiet. So where's the advantage?

jaganath · Post by **jaganath** » Sat May 20, 2006 1:56 am

These Lab test temperatures would be lower with an Arctic-Cooling air cooled product, at a tenth of the cost and with a 6 year guarantee. And as quiet.

I have not heard a single AC product that I would qualify as sufficiently quiet according to my standards in stock form. If the Reserator is truly silent I can see where the advantage would be.

Thomas · Post by **Thomas** » Sat May 20, 2006 2:03 am

jaganath wrote:
These Lab test temperatures would be lower with an Arctic-Cooling air cooled product, at a tenth of the cost and with a 6 year guarantee. And as quiet.
I have not heard a single AC product that I would qualify as sufficiently quiet according to my standards in stock form. If the Reserator is truly silent I can see where the advantage would be.

I agree very much on this !

As others mentioned: Water cooled HDD's in an enclosuer. I would really appreciate, if someone could achieve the same silence AND temperature, with air cooling.

Maintenance and risk of WC dont attract me. However, the HDD solutions certainly do !

nici · Post by **nici** » Sat May 20, 2006 5:58 am

Even though i have the original Res i have the new CPU block, wich is indeed worse, after several hours of uptime folding(=100% CPU load) i get to about 45Â°c on the CPU wich still is a 3700+ San Diego. MB temp 35Â°c, GPU 39Â°c and Raptor in AquaComputer enclosure 41Â°c. The hotter CPU and OCd card have upped the HDD temp 5Â°c or so, still acceptable considering the reduction in noise

So those temps are after the temperature of the water has settled, and it takes a few hours of gaming to raise it further. I havent measured water temp, but the warmest the Res gets is comfortable. I like to warm my hands on it

That would mean its probably 36-38Â°c, i have very cold hands.

I really like my Reserator, if you havenÂ´t got that by now

~El~Jefe~ · Post by **~El~Jefe~** » Sat May 20, 2006 12:14 pm

well nici is my bud, always agree with his opinions and style

I am totally against water cooled hardrives.

1. in a single fan system with no negative pressure and free flow from the front, they never should get hot.

2. all hd's should be new models or else they will be slow, hotter, and eventually start to make more noise. hd's are cheap for what they offer. I guess some could say a baracuda 5400 rpm "most silent" 3.5" drive is an exception, but come on, the thing moves like a dead pig and hasnt be available for 2 years.

3. the water in a reserator is similar to the cpu temps. how about a hd with 42 C water around it??? it would be cooler if left in the open air with no fan on it!! really no point for one that I can see.

I am about to delve into the bizarre and unkown with a res1 and a the new GPU block and.... an x1900 all-in-wonder

nici · Post by **nici** » Sat May 20, 2006 1:59 pm

But you see i havent got one single fan in the system to cool the HDD

I might still put the HDD in a air-cooled enclosure, well see

And btw. Lordi won the damn Eurovision

~El~Jefe~ · Post by **~El~Jefe~** » Sat May 20, 2006 10:40 pm

that's really gross.

i dont like things like that

icky.

Sparkytfl · Post by **Sparkytfl** » Sun May 21, 2006 7:38 am

~El~Jefe~ wrote:I am about to delve into the bizarre and unkown with a res1 and a the new GPU block and.... an x1900 all-in-wonder

If by new gpu block you mean the one that comes with the black reserator, I have one on my x1800 all in wonder, along with an x2 3800, and after the system being used for general internet stuff all day it stays around 45c as reported by the catalyst thing. It was always like sixty something with the stock fan. Haven't had a chance to stress it gaming for hours yet, but I've got a lan party saturday I can let you know about it's load temps after that. I can't imagine there being a huge difference between the 18 and 19. Though if your card is better you might be running a faster cpu.

zds · Post by **zds** » Sun May 21, 2006 6:14 pm

~El~Jefe~ wrote:My chip is NEVER under 39 degrees at idle with a reserator.

What graphics card you are using? Remember also that we are reporting temps from uncalibrated sensors, they can easily make 10 degree difference.

supastar42 wrote: In the Xbit Labs test, with the minimum power input of 100w, barely enough to cover a decent CPU and graphics card, the Res 1 ran at 59C and the Res+ at 63C.

In my experience users are unhappy if their CPU runs over 60C and happy if it runs under 50C.

Few comments.

First, what Xbit Labs used was a simulator. Simulators are good for getting repeatable results, but they are still not a real thing. And when you interpret simulator results, remember to compare results to each other, not simulator temps to temps of a real machine. This is why Xbit Labs included a decent air cooler for comparison and used it as reference. And applauded Reserator for keeping system cool enough while being very quiet.

Second, 100W is a lot for a machine that is meant to be silent. Remember that it takes hour or two for the Reserator to reach equilibrium which means that what counts is average thermal load over 1-2 hours. As you can see from this article, it's quite hard to push AMD system to have *average* combined CPU and GPU load of 100W or higher. The fastest AMD system has power-hungry graphics card (geforce 6800gt) and still the combined power draw of the whole system is 125W, at peak. Count out all the periphepals and the fact that it's impossible to run the machine under 100% CPU&GPU load for hours straight in any real-life scenario and you see that you can indeed run pretty fast system under 100W.

Third, even if you could get real CPU to run at 60C with Reserator (which I have not seen reported from real machines), it's still well within limit for silencing enthusiast. As long as the processor is stable (and does not throttle), it's ok. We are after silence, not ultimate longevity.

Thomas · Post by **Thomas** » Mon May 22, 2006 10:43 pm

~El~Jefe~ wrote:3. the water in a reserator is similar to the cpu temps. how about a hd with 42 C water around it??? it would be cooler if left in the open air with no fan on it!! really no point for one that I can see.

Good point

nici · Post by **nici** » Tue May 23, 2006 7:16 am

The point with a HDD enclosure being that even with 40c water the HDD stays at just a coupe degrees above 40c, and its possible to bury the enclosure in tons of foam to make it truly inaudible from 2". However it does make swapping HDDs a very disturbing process.

I find the HDD the most annoying component in the computer.

Probably going for the homebrew enclosure again.

Thomas · Post by **Thomas** » Tue May 23, 2006 8:42 am

I dont mind if it's a hassle to swap disks. But I dont want my HDD temps in the 40+ range. It's carrying precious data, and time spent on installation. I do make regular backups, but without RAID, I would still loose data.

nici · Post by **nici** » Tue May 23, 2006 11:54 am

I only have my OS, apps and games on a local drive. Everything else is down in the garage

I find it way too hard to silence 4-5 drives and keep them cool inside a computer.. I dont like drives hotter than 30cÂ° but i will sacrifce some longevity to run them silently at 40c.

~El~Jefe~ · Post by **~El~Jefe~** » Fri May 26, 2006 7:44 pm

that's whacked like crack.

but, i guess silence can happen if you sandwich and run them on water.

i only mind idle sounds not seeks so it never bothers me.

nici · Post by **nici** » Fri May 26, 2006 8:41 pm

Yeah but i have my box on the desk, 10" from my head. Quite hard to make a drive inaudible from that distance.. And i cant have it on the floor because i cant lift it up on the table.

I donÂ´t mind seek noise either, it nice to know something happens when i click something, i hate it when i click somehting and have to click again because i forgot if i already clicked

Soon ill jsut have the Raptor in again, in some kind of enclosure, homebrew alleycat style most likely.

The garage thingie is 750Gb worth of RAID5, in addition to that i have USB drives and will make DVDs of my photos and other stuff i definately dont want to lose. Yes im paranoid about losing data

nici · Post by **nici** » Fri May 26, 2006 8:42 pm

Yeah but i have my box on the desk, 10" from my head. Quite hard to make a drive inaudible from that distance.. And i cant have it on the floor because i cant lift it up on the table.

I donÂ´t mind seek noise either, it nice to know something happens when i click something, i hate it when i click somehting and have to click again because i forgot if i already clicked

Soon ill jsut have the Raptor in again, in some kind of enclosure, homebrew alleycat style most likely.

The garage thingie is 750Gb worth of RAID5, in addition to that i have USB drives and will make DVDs of my photos and other stuff i definately dont want to lose. Yes im paranoid about losing data

What's so special about the Reserator?

What's so special about the Reserator?

Re: What's so special about the Reserator?

Re: What's so special about the Reserator?