Swiftech MCP350/Laing DDC, my opinion.[UPDATE with pics]

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nici
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Swiftech MCP350/Laing DDC, my opinion.[UPDATE with pics]

Post by nici » Sat May 13, 2006 3:38 pm

I wanted a 12V pump and so a while ago i got the Swiftech, too noisy for my liking. So i figured it might be the top, got the acrrylic top and it did actually become much quieter :) SPL wise its now somewhere between a 2,5" drive and a 3,5" drive, not annoying and the noise is mostly caused by the flowing water. Its still running on 12V, rated 6-12V, and wont run on 5V, so i would need to get it lower than 12V. Ideas? I could just do it with diodes or resistors, but it draws so much power i would need several in parallell. Id also like it adjustable, at least at 12V it makes a difference of 25mHz on the GPU core from 550 to 575, stock is 400mHz. But id like it to run lower if im not gaming.

One problem i now have is that its so much more powerful than the stock pump that the Res sounds like a damn fountain, should be fixed with the undervolt though.

Ill also add a ferrite ring and maybe a cap on the power wires, 12V pumps apparently cause some ripple. Only 100mV or so though so its within spec but i still don´t like it.

If this thread gets any interest ill get some pictures later when i get my hands on a (working) camera... :!:

There´s probably someting vital that i forgot, ill add taht later if i think of it.. :roll:
Last edited by nici on Mon May 22, 2006 5:21 am, edited 1 time in total.

zds
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Re: Swiftech MCP350/Laing DDC, my opinion.

Post by zds » Sun May 14, 2006 2:54 am

Nice report!
nici wrote:Its still running on 12V, rated 6-12V, and wont run on 5V, so i would need to get it lower than 12V. Ideas?
How about going for mCubed T-Balancer miniNG: http://www.t-balancer.com/english/produkt_tban_mini.htm?

They promise it's designed to handle load of 12V pumps and it can be adjusted manually, by temperature or with T-Balancer base unit from PC. I can do the control both analog and digital (PWM) way; I'd go for PWM, if you pump behaves properly under it, as it does not waste heat.

In Finland at least Only4Pro imports mCubed goods, so you could ask them to order miniNG to you: http://www.only4pro.com/index.php?id=listcat&index=207

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Post by HammerSandwich » Sun May 14, 2006 7:09 am

The Sunbeam Rheobus will handle a DDC quite nicely, and it's cheap at Jab-tech.

Marvin
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Re: Swiftech MCP350/Laing DDC, my opinion.

Post by Marvin » Sun May 14, 2006 8:34 am

nici wrote:I could just do it with diodes or resistors, but it draws so much power i would need several in parallell. Id also like it adjustable, at least at 12V it makes a difference of 25mHz on the GPU core from 550 to 575, stock is 400mHz.
Judging by this statement, You could easily build something with transistors. That way it would be adjustable. Ofcourse drawback is that you will lose a bit from 12V, 0.7-1.4V depending on the chosen circuit. I've done one from Cpemma'ssite, and it work pretty well. It can handle all the power I throw at it, not that there would be too much of it. Also these are so simple, You can get all parts from Bebek or any other electronicstore in Finland. Most expensive part will be the knob for adjusting, if you want it to be seen and atleast decent.
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nici
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Post by nici » Sun May 14, 2006 11:39 am

Thanks for all the input :) All ideas seem good to me, the DIY thing being the cheapest obviously. Though i would like it to adjust speed automaticallly, wich would be easiest with the mCubed but i could also just do a bypass on the DIY thing or the Rheobus.. Like a temp probe and a relay, probably a transistor to drive it, that would bypass the controller at say 50c on the GPU for example.. :) The idea seems interesting, but im kind of fed up with electronics because of school at the moment.. but then again i vant get the mCubed thing here without special ordering it wich could take weeks for all i know.

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Post by nici » Mon May 22, 2006 3:52 am

UPDATE: I ordered a Rheobus from www.coolputer.fi after i decided it was the easiest thing to do, yes im lazy :wink:

And heres the couple pictures i promised :)

CLICK for 1280x960 pics, i resized and compressed them so they should load pretty fast :) Btw the pump is running full speed in those pics.

Image


Image

Azazel
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Post by Azazel » Sun May 28, 2006 3:00 pm

Have you tried reducing the pump speed yet? I'd be interested in seeing how much it affects noise and flow/performance. I'm considering a very similar thing. I've got the equipment for reducing the pump speed, but with mixed reports on pump starting voltages and no info so far about noise levels when undervolted, I want to know its worth my time and money ;)

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Post by nici » Fri Jun 02, 2006 1:50 am

I typed a response earlier but my puter crashed and i didn´t feel like typing it all over..

Anyway, i did try to reduce the speed but it didnt work too well. The pump stops at 10-11V and only starts reliably at 12V. I think its the desgn of a centrifugal pump that causes this, there should not be any restriction on the inlet but i have 1m of 8mm ID tubing and two 8mm fittings.. Swiftech says not to use anyhting under 3/8" on intake and place the pump as close to the reservoir as possible. Restriction on the inlet might cause the impeller to vibrate and stop the pump or something, says the manual.

But i can say that even when it runs at 10V for a moment noise is definately reduced. So im going to try with a reservoir in ne of the 5,25" slots. I ahve one fo them but i dont have fittings for it and dont fancy gluing the tubes in a couple of holes either...

Short version: undervolting reduces noise noticeably, no idea on effects on performance. I wouldn´t mind eunning the pump at full speed during games though.

dinofx
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Post by dinofx » Sat Jun 03, 2006 6:11 am

I'd have to agree the stock Laing DDC pump was not as quiet as I had hoped. It was the loudest component on my system during idle time, a situation which we both decided was unacceptable. Where did you purchase the clear cover for the pump?

A manual rheostat or any form of resistor is not the way to control the voltage to your water pump. First off, the current draw of your water pump is not constant over time, which means its resistance is not constant over time. But a power resistor or a manual rheostat provides constant resistance.

When this pump is trying to start, it draws at least twice as much current, which means your series resistor needs to magically reduce its resistance for startup. This is why you can't start your pump at "10 volts". It must be getting less than 8 volts using a rheostat.

I have the same pump (18W version, maybe yours is 10W?), bought via dangerden. Mine starts at just 8 volts, and keeps running at slightly lower voltages. I built a simple circuit using a MOSFET as the "rheostat". The MOSFET is controlled by an op-amp, which has an input signal telling it what voltage I want my pump to receive. An op-amp also takes a feedback signal from the output voltage, which is what allows it to change the MOSFETs resistance basically instantaneously to maintain a true constant output voltage.

So, what is the input signal? It is the pulse-width-modulation (PWM) singal from one of my motherboard's fan headers. I use SpeedFan to dynamically control the PWM signal to my circuit, which allows the water pumps voltage to change based on my CPU's temps. The voltage can be automatically varried from 7.4 to 11.8 volts.

Image
Last edited by dinofx on Sat Jun 03, 2006 6:59 am, edited 1 time in total.

dinofx
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Post by dinofx » Sat Jun 03, 2006 6:13 am

Here is an audio sample of the water pump changing from max to min voltage.

http://home.nc.rr.com/katyandrandy/pump.mp3

nici
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Post by nici » Sat Jun 03, 2006 2:59 pm

I got my cover from www.coolputer.fi, it´s also available in some german shops. A few different versions of it.

My pump is the 11W version, and yes i suppose controlling it like you do is the best way of doing it. I could buid something like you did after studying electronics for three years now, but i kind of hate building stuff from scratch with no pcb.

The loudest noise from my pump is the bubbles that don´t exist, i mean the sound of it struggling like i mentioned earlier. At least thats what i think it is, and i don´t think very much :lol: I should take it out of the loop and try it with no resistance to see how that works, but i wont have time for that until in about a week.


Oh and ASUS Probe reports the pump speed as 4500rpm at 12V, it stops at about 3700rpm. I would think thats accurate, the first swiftech modles didn´t have rpm monitoring because they said they wont release it until they get proper readings.. Something to do with the design of the pump or the electronics, i don´t really care :lol:

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Post by haelduksf » Sat Jun 03, 2006 4:47 pm

I don't remember where I saw the article, but I know that if you move the outlet 90 degrees, so that it is perpendicular to the inlet instead of parallel, the resistance decreases significantly. On the other hand, it also increases the flow rate so much that it moves as much water as a 650/655, but maybe you'll be able to undervolt it a bit more that way.

Actually, your clear top seems to have a threaded hole at the top for just such a mod- try moving the outlet barb there and see what happens!

dinofx
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Post by dinofx » Sun Jun 04, 2006 6:30 am

nici wrote:My pump is the 11W version, and yes i suppose controlling it like you do is the best way of doing it. I could buid something like you did after studying electronics for three years now, but i kind of hate building stuff from scratch with no pcb.
Actually, it only takes about 3 months :-). I had to order 32 PCBs, so I have extras. I am selling this circuit as a kit, or pre-built. Of course, if your motherboard doesn't have PWM, it may not be for you.

The bubbles are called cavitation. It's caused by low pressure on the intake side. Using the top intake would help, as would anything to reduce the restriction of water flow. Mounting the pump with the top facing up helps. The impeller doesn't like to pull against gravity. I have mine mounted upside-down with no problems. I have a pretty small loop.

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Laing DDC and the plexi top

Post by mnanderson » Sun Jun 04, 2006 10:49 am

haelduksf wrote:I don't remember where I saw the article, but I know that if you move the outlet 90 degrees, so that it is perpendicular to the inlet instead of parallel, the resistance decreases significantly.
There's a nice bit of analysis of these pumps and the effect of the plexi top here.

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Post by nici » Sat Jun 10, 2006 8:01 pm

I have to try the top hole.. Its meant for an optional reservoir but judging by the linked thread it makes quite a difference :)

Ill also make the tubes to the reserator a lot shorter and 3/8" diameter, skip the pci hole thing and see if i can fit some larger fittings on the reserator..

I just had my pump slightly undervolted and apparently it stopped while i was out because my computer had turned off when i got home.. I was downloading 4,4Gb worth of Vista Beta2 and was almost finished and now i have to start again... :roll:

Oh and my mobo has PWM, ASUS A8N-SLI Deluxe.. Don´t use it though, i have the two 92mm nexus exhausts connected to the Rheobus.

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Post by peteamer » Sun Jun 11, 2006 2:06 am

If your planning upgrades of that magnitude... it sounds like time to get a hole put near the top of your res for an inlet and bin the pump. :D

My once quiet Eheim 1048 is even quieter now it's stored in it's box in the garden shed. :lol:


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nici
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Post by nici » Sun Jun 11, 2006 4:26 am

I wasn´t thnking of drilling new, larger treads on the Res if that´s what you thought, just see if i can get some fitting with the same tread as stock but larger ID.

If i can get the pump to run at 3000rpm instead of the 4500rpm its running now it will be quiet enough=inaudible :)

I ordered a bunch of fittings and the acrylic reservoir that mounts on top of the pump. It mounts on top of the acrylic cover i have, and should eliminate the need for a 90° bend in the plumbing right next to the inlet.. :)

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Post by warriorpoet » Wed Jun 14, 2006 2:31 pm

Just go with a t-line. None of the noise, hassle, leak potential or routing issues of a res. Most often better performance, too.

for more info:
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/sho ... hp?t=54331
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nici
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Post by nici » Thu Jun 15, 2006 3:47 am

What leak or routing issues? :lol:

I tried using 12mm ID tubing from the reserator to the reservoir but the clamp wasnt tight enough and i had a nice leak.. Taped the top hole of the reserator, flipped it on its side and blew the fluid out of the pipe and fitted some 3/8" ID there too.. No leaks :)

And my nice and small pump isnt so small anymore either, but it works very well and it is very quiet :) I´ll post pics of the whole thing once i get the cables sorted.. I need a very long flat ide cable.

CLICKY
Image

Brodel
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Post by Brodel » Tue Jul 04, 2006 1:44 pm

so would you say that the ddc with plexi top is a better bet than a d5? I'm trying to decide and am so far going with the ddc as it seems to be quieter.

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Post by virtualrain » Sun Jul 23, 2006 10:28 am

dinofx wrote:
nici wrote: Actually, it only takes about 3 months :-). I had to order 32 PCBs, so I have extras. I am selling this circuit as a kit, or pre-built. Of course, if your motherboard doesn't have PWM, it may not be for you.
Dinofx... Sent you a PM about your pump controller... Thx.

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Post by zds » Sun Jul 23, 2006 10:46 am

Brodel wrote:so would you say that the ddc with plexi top is a better bet than a d5?
I don't think any of the SPCR folks have done apples to apples comparison, and there seems to be some sample variance, so hard to say for sure. What I can tell is that my DDC with plexi top is *very* quiet.. equals in noise to a silent 80mm fan running at 700-800rpm.

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Post by adidas4275 » Sun Jul 23, 2006 8:20 pm

I have same pump with alphacool top and res and my pump is fairly loud, loudest thing in my computer.......

I go a petra's gell pad to put under it, comming later this week and I am try to buy one the the PWM controllers. Waiting for a PM.

but I am surprised my Via Aqua 1300 w/ impeller mod was more quite.

I am interested to see what it will sound like with the PWM controller.
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Post by echn111 » Mon Jan 15, 2007 4:47 am

adidas4275 wrote:I have same pump with alphacool top and res and my pump is fairly loud, loudest thing in my computer.......

I go a petra's gell pad to put under it, comming later this week and I am try to buy one the the PWM controllers.
Did the the PWM controller (am thinking of a t-balancer) help in controlling your noisy alphacool plexitop Swiftech MCP350/Laing/DDC?

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Post by unimatrix0 » Mon Jan 15, 2007 4:53 pm

The T-balancer will make the DDC quieter but at a cost. Undervolting the 10W DDC makes the T-balancer extremely hot, its heatsink reaches 50 degrees celcius. Undervolting the 18W is even worser. According to m-cubed, this is normal, but personally I don't like saving noise at the expense of wasting heat and energy. Also, the DDC stops at near 9 volts, so it's a fine line to play around, you can't undervolt that much.

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Post by HammerSandwich » Mon Jan 15, 2007 7:20 pm

unimatrix0 wrote:Also, the DDC stops at near 9 volts, so it's a fine line to play around, you can't undervolt that much.
I'll agree with that but note that even a small reduction can take the edge off the pump's noise. Much better than 12V! FWIW, my DDC is powered through a Sunbeam Rheobus, and that channel's heatsink gets warm but not hot.

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Post by cyberspyder » Mon Jan 15, 2007 7:46 pm

Why don't you guys just get the Petra/Laing DDCT-01? It's better than ALL of the Acrylic tops.

Brendan

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Post by migueld » Mon Jan 15, 2007 7:59 pm

cyberspyder wrote:Why don't you guys just get the Petra/Laing DDCT-01? It's better than ALL of the Acrylic tops.

Brendan
There have been several reports where Petra's top is noisier than Alphacool's acrylic top. So this is a big no for SPCR standards. And, personally I prefer Alphacool's for the looks and the mounting options; I really like Alphacool's attention to detail.

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Post by migueld » Mon Jan 15, 2007 8:02 pm

HammerSandwich wrote:
unimatrix0 wrote:Also, the DDC stops at near 9 volts, so it's a fine line to play around, you can't undervolt that much.
I'll agree with that but note that even a small reduction can take the edge off the pump's noise. Much better than 12V! FWIW, my DDC is powered through a Sunbeam Rheobus, and that channel's heatsink gets warm but not hot.
Could you measure the temperature on the sunbeam's heatsink? I'm really curious on how off the t-balancer compares to other controllers. To me there's something really wrong with the t-balancer's heat. I'd be nice to see if this is common occurence on controllers, or a mishap in the t-balancer.

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Post by HammerSandwich » Mon Jan 15, 2007 10:02 pm

I doubt any of my thermometers will work for that. No problem to keep my finger on the heatsink or regulator chip.

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