How to mount Laing DDC to dampen noise?

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unimatrix0
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How to mount Laing DDC to dampen noise?

Post by unimatrix0 » Tue Aug 22, 2006 8:38 pm

I've gotten a DDC which some have said it's quiet. Mine it's not. It's the noisiest component in my rig by a factor of 5x. Right now my DDC is mounted on the base of my case with the original rubber rings. I've made sure the rubber rings are the only thing touching the case. Still loads of noise. And no, this pump doesn't look defective, it's in perfect working condition.

I understand the way it's mounted has a big impact on noise. So I'd like to know if anyone has found suitable mounting for a DDC to reduce noise?

How about spring mounting? gel pads? rubber?

I'm getting a bigNG to control pump voltage which should help in noise, but I'm still not happy about this pump making so much noise.

Any ideas?

frankgehry
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Post by frankgehry » Tue Aug 22, 2006 9:16 pm

Did you get the 10w or 18w version? The 18w version is now offered by swiftech as the mcp355. They offer this note of caution:

"The MCP355 generates higher audible noise than the MCP350 and MCP655 pumps. This product is not recommended for users seeking silent operations"

http://www.swiftnets.com/products/mcp355.asp

HammerSandwich
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Post by HammerSandwich » Tue Aug 22, 2006 10:08 pm

I just recently decided that my early DDC (bought 12/2004) is getting louder. I wrapped it in foam and have that assembly sitting on 2-3 other layers of different foam on my case's floor. Vibration can be felt in the tubing that connects directly to the pump, but not anywhere else. Sorry - I buttoned up my PC before taking pics of the final setup.

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Post by unimatrix0 » Tue Aug 22, 2006 10:08 pm

Thanks for the info, mine is a MCP350. I just unscrewed it from the base and noise has reduced quite a bit. I still need a way to fasten it and for it to be quiet, if possible.

zds
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Post by zds » Wed Aug 23, 2006 2:34 am

unimatrix0 wrote:Thanks for the info, mine is a MCP350. I just unscrewed it from the base and noise has reduced quite a bit. I still need a way to fasten it and for it to be quiet, if possible.
You can estimate the effect of soft dampening by holding it in your hand, unfastened but running. Or did you do just this?

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Post by Marci » Wed Aug 23, 2006 4:20 am

Alphacool HDD VibeFixer to suspend the pump elastically in a drive bay...

unimatrix0
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Post by unimatrix0 » Wed Aug 23, 2006 10:17 am

zds wrote:
unimatrix0 wrote:Thanks for the info, mine is a MCP350. I just unscrewed it from the base and noise has reduced quite a bit. I still need a way to fasten it and for it to be quiet, if possible.
You can estimate the effect of soft dampening by holding it in your hand, unfastened but running. Or did you do just this?
Right, I tried that. It's a bit loose now, with only 1 screw, but I'd like a way to secure it and for it to be quiet.

Marci, thanks for the suggestion but I don't want to go into the drive bay with the pump. First it's the inconvenience and price and second it's the noise of the pump which would be much closer to the front of my PC which has grilled front.

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Post by Azazel » Thu Aug 24, 2006 3:30 pm

Marci wrote:Alphacool HDD VibeFixer to suspend the pump elastically in a drive bay...
Marci - as in Thermochill marci? I didn't realise you were a SPCRer.

Anyway, I've got a DDC on the way, the 18v version. The silencing plan is tygon tubing (softer & less vibration transmission) and enclosing it in foam, in an enclosure (ala Alleycat HDD enclosure) and put that on foam. If that's not enough, I'll undervolt it too. If you've got the space, it might pay to do the same.

Pump noise, cost and space have been the three things that made me leave the watercooling fold, I've solved the second two (new job and some tetris skills in an HTPC, respectively), hopefully I can solve the last. I intend to write this up properly for a change and maybe submit it to procooling or SPCR. Maybe Marci could send me a PA120.2... ;) They were out of stock at DangerDen when I bought and it would have blown the cost up hugely (add shipping to NZ and 12.5% GST if the purchase is over NZ$400).

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Post by unimatrix0 » Fri Aug 25, 2006 10:43 pm

I got a Laing D5 pump too which I received recently, I was determined to see if it was quieter than the DDC. The Laing D5 is a much more robust pump, to start, it dampens air bubble noise much nicely than the DDC: the DDC would sound like a high-pitched grinder machine when processing air bubbles. Then, the D5 has much much less vibration and it's seems to run much cooler than the DDC. The DDC definately gets warm. I'm hesistant to wrap it in foam since I got the impression it could really burn.

The only reason I'd love to keep a DDC is for the space savings and the looks of a possible alphacool clear cover. But it seems the only way to kill the noise in a DDC is to wrap it in foam. For that I might as well have a naked D5.

I'm not entirely happy with the D5 though, I think it could be quieter. I've used a Thermaltake pump and it produced less noise and the quality of noise sound was less bothersome. I guess the quest doesn't end yet..

As for radiator I have in front of me Swiftech's Quiet Power and a Black Ice Pro. So far it doesnt seem there'll be much noise differences, but I need to do some testing.

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Post by zds » Tue Aug 29, 2006 12:28 pm

unimatrix0 wrote:The only reason I'd love to keep a DDC is for the space savings and the looks of a possible alphacool clear cover.
I strongly recommend the acrylic cover. I in fact thought you already had it, otherwise I had suggested it.. It's almost as mandatory as DC power if you want to run DDC quietly.

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Post by unimatrix0 » Tue Aug 29, 2006 1:53 pm

zds wrote:
unimatrix0 wrote:The only reason I'd love to keep a DDC is for the space savings and the looks of a possible alphacool clear cover.
I strongly recommend the acrylic cover. I in fact thought you already had it, otherwise I had suggested it.. It's almost as mandatory as DC power if you want to run DDC quietly.
Yea I'm still playing around with the idea of getting the acrylic cover or getting a Danger Den Mag II LE for about a third of the price of the DDC+alphacool. I heard comments where the DDC is a somewhat fragile pump in the sense where people had to RMA them or getting noisy over the years. I already RMAd a DDC because of unreliable startups. So I'm a bit hesitant on spending $100 with the alphacool if I could spend $40 for the Mag LE which would provide more than sufficient flow for what I need.

I still need to try down-volting my DDC to see how quiet it runs. If it's quieter than the D5 and produces less heat I might settle with the DDC.

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Post by zds » Tue Aug 29, 2006 4:18 pm

unimatrix0 wrote:I'm a bit hesitant on spending $100 with the alphacool
$100 sounds like a lot.. at least here in Finland the acrylic cover itself costs just mere 26,90 €: http://www.coolputer.fi/tiedot.asp?t=1394.

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Post by unimatrix0 » Tue Aug 29, 2006 4:38 pm

zds wrote:
unimatrix0 wrote:I'm a bit hesitant on spending $100 with the alphacool
$100 sounds like a lot.. at least here in Finland the acrylic cover itself costs just mere 26,90 €: http://www.coolputer.fi/tiedot.asp?t=1394.
oh no, sorry I wasn't clear :) , yea the alphacool cover is $30 here in the US and the DDC is $70 which would add up to $100. That vs the Mag II LE at $40. I've browsed some stores in europe and I've seen some modded DDCs with the alphacool cover for about 60 euros, is that possible? I wonder if it's much cheaper over there...

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Post by zds » Tue Aug 29, 2006 5:20 pm

unimatrix0 wrote:oh no, sorry I wasn't clear :) , yea the alphacool cover is $30 here in the US and the DDC is $70 which would add up to $100. That vs the Mag II LE at $40. I've browsed some stores in europe and I've seen some modded DDCs with the alphacool cover for about 60 euros, is that possible? I wonder if it's much cheaper over there...
But if you already have the DDC pump, cannot you just get the cover and swap it? Or am I missing something (again) here? For what I know, all DDC pumps should be equal when it comes to cover and cover fastening, so model should not matter there.

And for 60 euros.. Alphacool sells basic pump for 50€ and cover for 23€, so it's not impossible that some shop has had a sale and sold the pump on that price. But haven't seen myself.. would have ordered already ;-).

And as Alphacool is german company, there is some premium in price in States, the shipping, tolls, taxes and all that. 73€ is some $93.50, so $100 does not sound so much.

unimatrix0
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Post by unimatrix0 » Tue Aug 29, 2006 6:03 pm

zds wrote:But if you already have the DDC pump, cannot you just get the cover and swap it? Or am I missing something (again) here? For what I know, all DDC pumps should be equal when it comes to cover and cover fastening, so model should not matter there.
Yea I got the DDC, it's just that comparing it to the Mag II LE, the Mag seems so much cheaper. I'm basically trying to decide if I should sell the DDC and keep the Mag or get the alphacool cover. Hence my math. Sorry again for the confusion :)

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Post by zds » Tue Aug 29, 2006 6:45 pm

unimatrix0 wrote:I'm basically trying to decide if I should sell the DDC and keep the Mag or get the alphacool cover. Hence my math. Sorry again for the confusion :)
Heh :).

How about getting the cover, comparing the noise levels and then selling the louder one, in case of DDC with the new top? So many people want the DDC with the top that it shouldn't be hard to get most of the money spent to the top back.

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Post by Azazel » Tue Aug 29, 2006 6:59 pm

unimatrix0 wrote:
zds wrote:
unimatrix0 wrote:The only reason I'd love to keep a DDC is for the space savings and the looks of a possible alphacool clear cover.
I strongly recommend the acrylic cover. I in fact thought you already had it, otherwise I had suggested it.. It's almost as mandatory as DC power if you want to run DDC quietly.
Yea I'm still playing around with the idea of getting the acrylic cover or getting a Danger Den Mag II LE for about a third of the price of the DDC+alphacool. I heard comments where the DDC is a somewhat fragile pump in the sense where people had to RMA them or getting noisy over the years. I already RMAd a DDC because of unreliable startups. So I'm a bit hesitant on spending $100 with the alphacool if I could spend $40 for the Mag LE which would provide more than sufficient flow for what I need.

I still need to try down-volting my DDC to see how quiet it runs. If it's quieter than the D5 and produces less heat I might settle with the DDC.
If you're worried about the reliablility of a DDC, why are you even considering a MAG II? The two most unreliable watercooling pumps I've heard of have been the CSP 750 and the CSP-MAG. Doesn't that worry you?

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Post by unimatrix0 » Tue Aug 29, 2006 8:56 pm

Azazel wrote:If you're worried about the reliablility of a DDC, why are you even considering a MAG II? The two most unreliable watercooling pumps I've heard of have been the CSP 750 and the CSP-MAG. Doesn't that worry you?
Have any other pump to suggest? :wink:

I've heard more pros than cons on the Mag and I guess for the price I think it's worth the risk. My experiences with DDC haven't been great, I think it's pretty noisy by nature. I can probably make it silent, but the question is how worth is it? I've just finished down-volting it to 7.4 volts (stops at 7v). I could probably get the clear top, string-mount or foam-wrap and it'd probably be silent. But at 7.4v volts flow gets reduced and foam-wrap takes space.. costs $100.. not good.

Also, the DDC at 12v vibrates much more than the D5 (even at setting 5) and a Thermaltake I had previously. Even at 7.4 volts it makes more vibration than the D5 at 12v. The reason is likely to be high RPMs for a small-sized impeller and it makes sense that it'd vibrate and produce noise.

Added to the list of issues is my bigNG fan controller which heats up to 50+ degrees C when down-volting the DDC or D5.

So that’s where I stand up now, I don’t think I have much to loose by trying the Mag, if you have any ideas I’m open to suggestions.

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Post by unimatrix0 » Tue Aug 29, 2006 8:58 pm

zds wrote:How about getting the cover, comparing the noise levels and then selling the louder one, in case of DDC with the new top? So many people want the DDC with the top that it shouldn't be hard to get most of the money spent to the top back.
Yea that's a good idea and I'd love to know how it performs with the clear top, I could end up doing that. Yesterday I ordered the Mag, if it dissapoints big time I'll probably get the cover. We'll see. Thanks for the help.

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Post by unimatrix0 » Wed Aug 30, 2006 9:09 pm

Surprise. RMAd DDC came today, this is the third DDC I try, and to my surprise this one is much quieter than the previous two I had. It also makes much less vibration. Beats me why. This changes my whole panorama on the DDC.

I'm now weary on why do some DDCs are noisy as heck and why others aren't? Does running a DDC on foam without fastening it to the case harm it in any way? Does under-volting harm it with relation to noise? Other than running them dry, what else can harm them?

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Post by HammerSandwich » Thu Aug 31, 2006 6:26 am

unimatrix0 wrote:Other than running them dry, what else can harm them?
The list should be pretty small. I'll start with excessive heat (unlikely to occur), impact or too much water pressure. No real need to worry here, I think.

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Post by zds » Thu Aug 31, 2006 6:35 am

unimatrix0 wrote:I'm now weary on why do some DDCs are noisy as heck and why others aren't? Does running a DDC on foam without fastening it to the case harm it in any way? Does under-volting harm it with relation to noise? Other than running them dry, what else can harm them?
I'd blame sample variance. It seems there is both DDCs that are very quiet and ones that are loud.. and not much between. My educated guess is that the default thin plastic top and impeller start to interact in a bad way if there is even some miniscular irregularities in their shape.

And DDC is a lot louder if it has enough air inside it..

Further I guess that the reason why the acrylic top is so much quieter is that it's a lot harder for the little irregularities to make it resonate, as it's a lot tougher and thicker. I mean, take 1mm thick hard plastic sheet and 20mm acrylic piece to your hands and test which one is easier to use as a drum..

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Post by unimatrix0 » Thu Aug 31, 2006 9:28 am

Regarding temperatures on the DDC I do know that one of the previous defective ones got to up 70+ degrees C and rumbled heavily. So the more it vibrates the more heat it'll make.

How about vertical mounting?

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Post by unimatrix0 » Thu Aug 31, 2006 9:31 am

zds wrote:My educated guess is that the default thin plastic top and impeller start to interact in a bad way if there is even some miniscular irregularities in their shape.
I think so too. The ceramic axis interacts with the plastic or acetal impeller, not sure of what it is, but I know the impeller material is not very resistant.

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Post by nici » Thu Aug 31, 2006 11:13 am

IIRC there's a ceramic ball wich touches the metal impeller, wich then has some kind of plastic "wings" on top. The impeller being the only moving part the only things that could cause vibration is an unbalanced impeller, imperfect ceramic ball or top. The acrylic top eliminates the last option, and increases flow at the same time.

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Re: How to mount Laing DDC to dampen noise?

Post by snutten » Tue Sep 12, 2006 4:40 pm

unimatrix0 wrote:How about spring mounting? gel pads? rubber?
Only thing good enough is to hang the pump in soft silicon cords or something similar, letting it touch nothing and use soft tubing at inlet / outlet. In the case of a DDC, you have more to worry about. The air-borne noise is horrible and hard to dampen. I have repeatedly told about my attempts which resulted in a big lump of sound proofening materials and cement with a small DDC in it :-(

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Re: How to mount Laing DDC to dampen noise?

Post by unimatrix0 » Tue Sep 12, 2006 4:45 pm

snutten wrote:
unimatrix0 wrote:How about spring mounting? gel pads? rubber?
Only thing good enough is to hang the pump in soft silicon cords or something similar, letting it touch nothing and use soft tubing at inlet / outlet. In the case of a DDC, you have more to worry about. The air-borne noise is horrible and hard to dampen. I have repeatedly told about my attempts which resulted in a big lump of sound proofening materials and cement with a small DDC in it :-(
Do you have the 10w or 18w version? I was fooled by Swiftech on their MCP350 model thinking it was a 10w when it really was a 18w. I agree the 18w is noise hell, but the 10w with the acrylic cover has little vibration and it's the quietest component on my rig.

I do have to say the DDC design is not the best when it comes to noise reduction, the casing is not sealed at the bottom and the plastic is very thin. If the casing were sealed and thicker it'd be much quieter.

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Post by n00btard » Sat Sep 16, 2006 2:07 pm


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