Building QUIET Rack-mount Digital Audio Workstation

rporetti · Post by **rporetti** » Wed Aug 01, 2007 10:14 am

Although I've pieced together systems and reconfigured them (changed a motherboard, replaced a CPU, hard drives, etc.) I have yet to "design" and build a system from scratch.

Any comments on suitability, installation advice, gotchas', etc on building this machine, ordering parts etc. - is quite appreciated!

Case:
Antec Take 3

Motherboard:
Asus P5K-C Socket 775 Intel P35 ICH9 Chipset Dual-Channel DDR2 1066/800/667Mhz & DDR3 1333/1066/800 eSATA/SATA 3.0Gb/s Firewire 12x USB 2.0

CPU:
Intel Q6600 64 Bit Quad Core 2.4GHz 8MB L2 cache processor

RAM:
Corsair XMS2 TWIN2X2048-6400 Matched Pairs 2GB Kit (2x1GB) PC6400 DDR2-800 CL 5-5-5-12 240-pin Dual Channel Memory X 2 = (4GB's)

Video Card:
XFX GEFORCE 8600 GT 256MB PCI EXPRESS FATAL1TY 620MHZ DDR3 DUAL-LINK DVI/TV

System Hard drive:
Western Digital 74GB WD740ADFD SATA150 10,000RPM 16MB

Audio Hard Drive:
Western Digital 250GB WD2500YS SATA300 7200RPM 16MB

Sample Hard Drive:
Western Digital 250GB WD2500YS SATA300 7200RPM 16MB

CD/DVD:
PX-810SA DVD Super Multi Drive

CPU Cooling:
Thermaltake CL-P0369 Max Orb CPU Cooler

Cheers!

Rob

rporetti · Post by **rporetti** » Wed Aug 01, 2007 2:10 pm

Since no one has posted a reply - after further research, I've updated some components...

I'm having some problems finding Canadian suppliers for the Antec Take 3. I seem to be able to find the Antec 3U25ATX450XR-2 much more readily...

Anyone have experience with quiet rack-mount cases in general or no how the two Antec cases compare?

Comments on the rest of the stuff would be cool too...

Rob

stromgald · Post by **stromgald** » Wed Aug 01, 2007 2:54 pm

I don't know much about rackmount systems, but I can tell you that your CPU cooler choice isn't good. The general rule is to stay away from Thermaltake products. So far, their only decent one has been the ThermalTake Big Typhoon, and that's only because they used a fan similar to Nexus/YateLoon fans. You're better off with the venerable Zalman 7000 AlCu than that Thermaltake.

I would recommend a Scythe Katana or an Arctic Cooling Freezer 7. I think both would be quieter and work better with the rackmount's airflow.

I'm also wondering about your graphics card choice. For a Digital Audio Workstation, I think you could go for a slightly cheaper graphics card like the 8500 series. It'll save you a little money, and for digital audio stuff, you wouldn't notice a difference.

The rest of your choices are fine, powerful yet economical quad core processor, good RAM, motherboard, and quet hard drives except for the Raptor.

bonestonne · Post by **bonestonne** » Wed Aug 01, 2007 3:43 pm

i hope its safe to assume you have a 64bit OS ready for this [if not dont get quad core with 4 gigs of RAM.

if you're only using a 32bit OS, it'll be wiser to use 2 gigs of RAM and an E6750.

continuing one, you'll want a much better CPU cooler, rackmounts are not the greatest when it comes to airflow, so you'll need one that can perform in low airflow conditions, exhaust fan should be 120mm, you should definately find a way to increase airflow coming in [modified drive bay covers, etc] and you'll need to keep in mind that audio work is not graphically intensive at all [in fact, you could get away with a $40 graphics card and lose no performance for what you're doing].

what's your program of choice for the audio editing? i'd also suggest not using onboard sound for this. i have HD onboard audio, and i'm coming very close to not using it for a local performance i'm booked to record. it has a tendancy to spike and have disgusting quality, and i can email you sample copies of songs that i've recorded. you're OS and driver choice will strongly influence how well the output is, so be very picky.

rporetti · Post by **rporetti** » Wed Aug 01, 2007 4:16 pm

Hi stromgald,

Thanks for the feedback - much appreciate your time...

Did not know that about Thermatake - thanks for the heads up..

Finding a low-profile cooler is a bit tricky. The Take 3 case is only 132.8 mm high - and that's on the *outside* of the case. Looks like the Artic Freezer 7 is 126.5 mm. I don't see how that could fit. ... which is too bad after looking at it, that would have been my choice...

The Katana is even taller - 130 mm...

How about the Zalman CPU Cooler, CNPS7700-Cu? It's only 67mm high.

Graphics card: I had some criteria there. One was dual DVI. The other is no fan. If you can tell me about a card that is a good performer with that criteria, I'd appreciate it!

Cheers!

rporetti · Post by **rporetti** » Wed Aug 01, 2007 4:40 pm

bonestonne wrote:i hope its safe to assume you have a 64bit OS ready for this [if not dont get quad core with 4 gigs of RAM.

if you're only using a 32bit OS, it'll be wiser to use 2 gigs of RAM and an E6750.

continuing one, you'll want a much better CPU cooler, rackmounts are not the greatest when it comes to airflow, so you'll need one that can perform in low airflow conditions, exhaust fan should be 120mm, you should definately find a way to increase airflow coming in [modified drive bay covers, etc] and you'll need to keep in mind that audio work is not graphically intensive at all [in fact, you could get away with a $40 graphics card and lose no performance for what you're doing].

what's your program of choice for the audio editing? i'd also suggest not using onboard sound for this. i have HD onboard audio, and i'm coming very close to not using it for a local performance i'm booked to record. it has a tendancy to spike and have disgusting quality, and i can email you sample copies of songs that i've recorded. you're OS and driver choice will strongly influence how well the output is, so be very picky.

Thanks bonestonne.

I'll be setting up two removable boot drives one XP Pro, the other Vista (64-bit) I'm running Nuendo 3 and 4 as well as WaveLab 6 (I'm a beta tester for both), along with numerous VST instruments....

I'm using an RME FireFace 800 - which have 64-bit Vista drivers. I needed a firewire interface so that I could also use it with my laptop...

Thanks for your comments on the rack mount cases... have you taken a look at the Antec Take 3? I've read a number of reviews where they attempted to overload the case, and it seemed to perform very well. The case is the thing I struggled with the most because its damn expensive - and I could not find many that are expressly made for an audio workstation - for a DIY. If you have any other possibilities for cases, I'd really love to know!

Cheers!

bonestonne · Post by **bonestonne** » Wed Aug 01, 2007 5:40 pm

ok, well first off, i see no mention of a power supply.
1) this system isn't going to run on your average dell 245W
2) its probably going to have some immense load at times, especially during recording and rendering

now, normally, i'd just say use a seasonic S12 [pick your choice] power supply, no less than 450W. this one might need something a bit bigger for the job.

http://tcw.biz/documentviewer.html?sDoc ... atID=37227

those first two power supplies are something to look into at least. they're not cheap at all, however theres no use in copping out at the PSU with such a high end system. the redundant PSU will have a steadier voltage than a standard PSU, so during load it will be more or less unnaffected in terms of increased draw. another plus about the two are that they only use 1 AC power cable. many older redundant power supplies would require two, so its not asking for too much extra. another thing to point out is that you'll have a lot of hard drives in use, draws from them alone could make most other power supplies have problems.

after looking through a bunch of 4U rackmount cases, i couldn't really find a better one, so yea, the Antec Take 3 should work out just fine.

rporetti · Post by **rporetti** » Wed Aug 01, 2007 8:54 pm

Thanks again bonestonne....

I believe the Antec Take 3 comes with a 450W ATX12V v2.0 Power Supply. The stuff I'll be running should be easily handled by that...

I never run bus power on the RME interface - I have it powered externally, and recording does not take much processing - ie: the CPU is not working hard to record. It works harder when running VST intruments but mainly effects processors like reverbs.

Drives don't draw that much - that 10,000 rpm Raptor during read/write draws less than 500 mA - about 10 watts. The other drives draw even less. That video card is a bit of a pig though...

Thanks a lot for looking at the rack - getting that kind of feedback is just as important - confirms what I'm doing...

Cheers!

jhhoffma · Post by **jhhoffma** » Thu Aug 02, 2007 4:14 am

stromgald wrote:I don't know much about rackmount systems, but I can tell you that your CPU cooler choice isn't good. The general rule is to stay away from Thermaltake products. So far, their only decent one has been the ThermalTake Big Typhoon, and that's only because they used a fan similar to Nexus/YateLoon fans. You're better off with the venerable Zalman 7000 AlCu than that Thermaltake.

Actually, Felger Carbon has been playing around with the MaxOrb (and swapping fans on it) and has found it to be a decent HSF, especially after replacing the stock fan.

You are correct that most people here stay away from Thermaltake, but it's usually from their shady specs and that they steal most of their designs from other, better companies, rather than the inferiority of their products. Most of them do work, just not as well as other brands.

rporetti · Post by **rporetti** » Thu Aug 02, 2007 5:45 am

Fair enough...

Zalman and "venerable" were mentioned in the same sentence, earlier in this thread...

I take it then that the Zalman CNPS7700-Cu will do the job. It's only 67mm high, but it's quite "wide" and apparently cools the surrounding chipsets...

Any users of that model here?

ninethirty · Post by **ninethirty** » Thu Aug 02, 2007 7:40 am

I have a 7700-CU running in a 4u case and an Antec NSK2400 desktop case. Height is no problem -- although, as you'll note, the fan exhausts up so it needs an inch or two above it for airflow. It cooled my AMD X2 3600+ just fine. I believe the 7700-CU is "venerable" just because it's old -- it was a "best choice" several years ago, and has been eclipsed by larger heatsinks by now. Still a fine cooler.
That's a useful note for a 3U case though -- it's roughly the same height as an Antec NSK2400, and there are tons of posts about the best cooler for a NSK2400. So that's something to look into. 7700-CU isn't a bad choice, but a quick search on this forum should give you a dozen other options.

If you can go 4U, you might find a few more options -- that additional 1.75" of headroom can be helpful for airflow.

I've looked with envy at the Antec DAW rackmounts, but haven't pulled the trigger. I already had a generic 4U (and a 2U, but don't get me started on that) so I decided to see if I could make something acceptable with that first. I think I've done a decent job, but it's not studio-silent yet. Perhaps the Antec would be an easier route?

stromgald · Post by **stromgald** » Thu Aug 02, 2007 8:46 am

I think I mentioned the Zalman 7000 as a good, reliable choice, but the 7700 is a little noisier IIRC.

I took another look at your case choices and the Antec Take 3 is much better as far as cooling goes. I was basing some of my suggestions on the 3U25ATX450XR-2. If you have the Take 3, there looks to be a side 120mm fan and rear 92mm fan really close to where the CPU heatsink would be. If there's nothing blocking the way, you could duct those exhaust fans over a SI-128 heatsink (with no fan on top). That would minimize the number of fans (and noise) and still keep your system fairly cool. It's 92mm high, so it should fit.

stromgald · Post by **stromgald** » Thu Aug 02, 2007 8:48 am

ninethirty wrote:Height is no problem -- although, as you'll note, the fan exhausts up so it needs an inch or two above it for airflow. It cooled my AMD X2 3600+ just fine. I believe the 7700-CU is "venerable" just because it's old -- it was a "best choice" several years ago, and has been eclipsed by larger heatsinks by now. Still a fine cooler.

Just a small correction, I think the fan blows down in the Zalman flower-type coolers. You still need some space above the heatsink/fan though for best cooling.

rporetti · Post by **rporetti** » Thu Aug 02, 2007 10:11 am

Hmmm... Although eliminating a fan is very intriguing, I think I'd be nervous about just a passive heat sink and then use the Antec Fan... unless someone has experience with this exact combination...

Also, it seems that most "moderate" CPU fans are relatively quiet compared to a big fan in a chassis? ...am I off base here? (I'm suggesting that the CPU fan at a moderate speed would be quiter then the case fan.)

I'd really like to keep the chassis to 3RU - and use a cooler that is not *huge*. For one thing, I'll probably moving it around from time to time. A heavy cooler on a CPU might be a problem - dang!! some of those Zalman coolers are 3/4 kilo! The SI-128 is half a kilo.

I think I"m getting more confused as we go...

protellect · Post by **protellect** » Thu Aug 02, 2007 10:23 am

rporetti wrote:
Graphics card: I had some criteria there. One was dual DVI. The other is no fan. If you can tell me about a card that is a good performer with that criteria, I'd appreciate it!

I have several 7300GT's from XFX that are passively cooled with dual dvi. If you're not using vista [or don't care about dx10], its cheap and works well.

stromgald · Post by **stromgald** » Thu Aug 02, 2007 11:01 am

rporetti wrote:Hmmm... Although eliminating a fan is very intriguing, I think I'd be nervous about just a passive heat sink and then use the Antec Fan... unless someone has experience with this exact combination...

This person did it with a NSK2400 case: viewtopic.php?p=305508

rporetti wrote:Also, it seems that most "moderate" CPU fans are relatively quiet compared to a big fan in a chassis? ...am I off base here? (I'm suggesting that the CPU fan at a moderate speed would be quiter then the case fan.)

Not necessarily. It depends on the size of the case fan. Smaller fans are generally louder than larger fans for a given amount of airflow, which makes sense since if you want 40 cubic feet per minute, a 60mm fan will have to move much faster than a 120mm fan. More speed usually results in more turbulence and motor noise. Simply put, always go for larger, slower rotating fans.

Most heatsinks with a fan that can fit in your small space won't have a 120mm fan, so it would probably be noisier. My Yate Loon 120mm fan in my SFF case at full speed is MUCH quieter than the Zalman 7000 at half speed, and probably moves more air too.

rporetti wrote:I'd really like to keep the chassis to 3RU - and use a cooler that is not *huge*. For one thing, I'll probably moving it around from time to time. A heavy cooler on a CPU might be a problem - dang!! some of those Zalman coolers are 3/4 kilo! The SI-128 is half a kilo.

Thermalright XP-90 and XP-120s are also good options for lightweight low profile heatsinks. They are both under the recommended limit by Intel and AMD of ~450g. They're also shorter than the SI-128 and you should be able to squeeze a fan on top if you want. I generally like the Thermalrights because they're usually all-aluminum and fairly light compared to the Zalmans and Scythes, which pack heavy copper. They've also managed to keep up with Scythe and Zalman fairly well as far as cooling goes, despite not using copper, which is a better thermal conductor.

rporetti wrote:I think I"m getting more confused as we go...

That happened to all of us when we first started.

EDIT: Here's another build with an XP-120 being run passively: viewtopic.php?t=39680

rporetti · Post by **rporetti** » Thu Aug 02, 2007 11:18 am

protellect wrote: I have several 7300GT's from XFX that are passively cooled with dual dvi. If you're not using vista [or don't care about dx10], its cheap and works well.

That sounds great... I've been on the XFX site and this is one option: NVIDIA GeForce 7300 GT 256MB DDRII Dual DVI

The picture on their site only shows one DVI port - do they give you a break-out cable to hook up two monitors? Usually, they give you two DVI outputs and then an adapter to get to VGA, if you need...

rporetti · Post by **rporetti** » Thu Aug 02, 2007 11:34 am

stromgald:

Thanks for your comments and links to those posts - very informative... in fact, I have to go back and give it a second read to let it sink in - lots of info there.

I gotta say guys, this site is a great resource - really appreciate everyone's help here, and I feel like I'm starting to get my brain wrapped around a final config...

Cheers!

bonestonne · Post by **bonestonne** » Thu Aug 02, 2007 6:00 pm

well, if you're shooting for a 3U rackmount, stock cooling wont be too loud [mainly because that case is quite thick, and if stored in a 19" rack, you wont hear a thing from it. i'd say look into some lower profile coolers, i'll definately help you more.

i accidentally formatted my entire drive so fudge i need to get everything back, i found a link you should read into...blame OS X...i'm triple booting locally now, but geez, i now need to re-rip 20 CDs...what fun [can't do it until week after next too].

more than anything i have to say, you may like a 4U more than a 3U, only because the extra space means a better cooler, and my apevia X-Dreamer [with my new rig in it] fell off my moms car seat [minivan] and is still running rock solid. in fact, my 64bit linux installation is going smoother now than it did before it fell, so i can't say what caused that. the only unappealing thing will be the finished weight of that monster. it will not be your average dell PC weight...more of an oil tanker's anchor.

ninethirty · Post by **ninethirty** » Fri Aug 03, 2007 11:47 am

well, if you're shooting for a 3U rackmount, stock cooling wont be too loud [mainly because that case is quite thick, and if stored in a 19" rack, you wont hear a thing from it. i'd say look into some lower profile coolers, i'll definately help you more.

Anyone who's been in a server room would question that assumption. I'm sitting thirty feet from one now, and it's clearly audible through a security door. When I go in I need earplugs. Steel cases aren't magic

Although bonestonne does raise one option that I've been considering at home -- enclosing my half-height rack in something with a door that would shut out some of the sound. Ventilated, of course...but the options aren't cheap.

kittle · Post by **kittle** » Fri Aug 03, 2007 12:14 pm

Another vote for the 4U case here.

I run one of these (SC742i) at home. Sturdy and very roomy. Also comes with a hefty power supply. But not cheap or light.

mine sits on the floor, but there are easily accessable holes for rackmounting.

Yeah steel cases arent the answer. IMO most server room noise comes from using stuff like this

ninethirty · Post by **ninethirty** » Fri Aug 03, 2007 12:35 pm

FYI -- you mentioned having a hard time sourcing an Antec Take 3. It looks like Antec is selling one B-stock on their North American store here: http://www.antec.com/us/pro_b_stock.php

Not sure what they normally go for, but I imagine the B-stock would be a good deal. If you're planning on moving it around, I imagine a brand new one would reach b-stock shape pretty quickly anyway.

rporetti · Post by **rporetti** » Tue Aug 07, 2007 6:26 am

Yea... saw that. I don't purchase directly from US suppliers. I've been burned too many times with Canadian Customs and brokerage fees...

Thanks for the "heads-up" though...

rporetti · Post by **rporetti** » Tue Aug 07, 2007 6:36 am

kittle/ninethirty:

Thanks for 4U comments. I don't really need more room then a 3 RU case will give me, so I believe cooling is the only issue. As I mentioned, I need to move this thing around from time to time, so keeping it to reasonable size and weight would be cool...

Thanks for your help!

Post by **MikeC** » Tue Aug 07, 2007 8:22 am

We've had both Take 3 and Take 4 cases in the SPCR lab for quite some time. A few reasons why they haven't been reviewed yet --

1) Low priority for SPCR -- They're of limited interest -- ie, they are designed almost exclusively for amateur audio recording folks, not really for pro racks. The market isn't very big, afaik... though I know there have been a handful of inquires about these cases in the forums. Cases happen to be extremely complex and time-consuming reviews for SPCR to do, and we prefer to make recommendations for rather than warnings against. We generally don't do anything but full-blown investigative reviews.... but maybe in this case we should opt for a shorter quick look type review. (Something we'll have to consider seriously very soon.)

2) The best HTPC cases work better in terms of airflow -- like NSK2400/Fusion & some of the bigger Silverstones. Both Take3/4 limit themselves to front/rear in/out air flow -- which is what's needed in a true rack, but this is really limiting for airflow. The multiple covers on the front side means there's quite a lot of airflow restriction, and the fact that the PSU is in front means its heat exhaust has to flow through the case, across the CPU/NB area to get out of the case. Not good for cooling.

3) The included PSUs are not great -- not for noise, nor for efficiency -- and the Take 3 PSU is non-standard: ALL the cabling comes out the back side, the side where the 80mm fan is mounted. ie, both AC and output cables are on that side. This means you can't just pop in a replacement PSU if you don't want to use the stock one. The stock PSU is done this way because it's jammed right up at the front of the case; the psu "front" is a grill intake set flush against the internal front panel of the case. I know of no other PSUs that have both AC input and DC outputs on the same side. That limits your quiet PSU option to simply modding the existing PSU.

Personally, unless you really mean for the thing to be in a closed rack, I would recommend the NSK2400 or if you need a full ATX case, one of the larger Silverstones -- LC17, probably -- and add rack mount handles if you really need them. Either of these would be much quieter, cooler and give you many more options.

Matija · Post by **Matija** » Tue Aug 07, 2007 9:08 am

I think you need one more drive.

You are probably going to be rendering tracks to one drive, and then very likely downmixing a few, and/or rendering the final result. I'd say you'd want the rendering to be done to a separate drive from your main audio/caching one.

rporetti · Post by **rporetti** » Tue Aug 07, 2007 11:54 am

Hi Mike,

I really appreciate your feedback, and your comments about the Take 3 PSU is concerning. Not being able to put a "standard" power supply in any computer is a non-starter...

Somehow I missed that fact in all my reading... oops...

You consider the Take 3/4 racks for "amateur audio recording folks"... do you have recommendations for "pro users". I need something rack mountable, quiet and *not* gargantuan.... I need to move it around.

BTW...Rack-mounts lets me put it in a road case more easily...

Cheers!

Post by **MikeC** » Tue Aug 07, 2007 12:23 pm

rporetti wrote:You consider the Take 3/4 racks for "amateur audio recording folks"... do you have recommendations for "pro users". I need something rack mountable, quiet and *not* gargantuan.... I need to move it around.

BTW...Rack-mounts lets me put it in a road case more easily...

Well, like I said, the Silverstone LC17 has better airflow design, takes a conventional 120mm fan PSU, and can be fitted with rack mount handles which are options -- see the RA1 "side panel" accessory.

I don't know of any other rack mount cases for computers that are better. Generally, more professional gear adheres more rigidly to rack mount requirements -- no in/out vents anywhere except front and back -- and tend to be considerably deeper, to accommodate EATX boards. Low noise is not even a consideration.

bonestonne · Post by **bonestonne** » Tue Aug 07, 2007 1:33 pm

i just recorded a show sunday night [turned into monday morning though] and i just hauled around my X-Dreamer...i'd love a rack mount [handles are a plus, and a rolling case would be awesome too] but its not entirely worth the money unless you're doing active recording, but more importantly, regulated recording.

a rack is useless unless you've got EQs, and at least one amp with the computer [thus using it to regulate what goes in]. if you're just doing minor transport jobs [local stuff], just keep the box your case comes in [don't forget the styrofoam as well], and use that to haul around in. i do it, works out just fine. heck, my computers fallen off a car seat before [nothing to brag about] but its fine.

racks are heavy, big, and they don't do anything really. i do professional quality recordings, but only when i've got the time and equipment to use. in situations like sunday when i had 4 mics [we were planning 6] and no one believes in starting at 1 on the snake, i hardly bother, and it comes out like ass. multichannel recording through a mixer, through multiple EQs, feedback eliminators and then out to the amps is a studio thing, and studio computers only move when theres cleaning.

if you're set on using a rack, get a HTPC case, a rack shelf, and strap the computer down. i've seen it done before. at my school, i know it isn't safe, but theres an ATX tower standing up with two external network drives on a shelf, no straps...they're lucky i'm not in charge of setting it all up.

rporetti · Post by **rporetti** » Tue Aug 07, 2007 9:29 pm

OK... the problem with most HTPC cases that I looked at, is that they don't seem to have 3.5" diskette capabilites. I use Ghost to create rescue images of my system - and I boot off a Ghost diskette to do this. (This lets me create an image without DVD swapping.) There have been countless times that I needed a diskette drive for one reason or another....

Hmmmm... actually, Silvertone LC-17 has a removable I/O kit that fits in the external 3.5" slot... I could use that.... and it's 170mm high....

Plus I get rack ear possibilities.... sounds promising...

So, now i need recommendations on a quiet 450-500 watt power supply... Silverstone?