20" LCD (benq FP2091)

wim · Post by **wim** » Tue Jan 18, 2005 2:55 am

i want to buy one of these. fantastics looks and i like the specs a lot and it seems pretty much perfect for what i wanted, but there's a catch - can't find one anywhere to test out in person, and i've been searching for months. this is quite an expensive item, and i'm not rich, i would need to be sure it is really what i want before i buy - for such a big purchase i can't afford to make a mistake.
i have found online shops that have great price and shipping, but they don't have a showroom/outlet and aren't interested in selling in any other way than the website.

if i buy it, no returns unless it's "faulty" and unfortunately 'audible' doesn't mean 'faulty' except to us silencentrics. also i'm so scared of getting a dead pixel or something and benq pixel policy gets particularly stingy for large 20" panels (they won't exchange it unless your dead pixels are in the center 1/9th of the panel and arranged in the shape of ophiuchus constellation

or something).

so what to do? i thought i'd ask here, this may be a long shot, but, anyone have experience with this product? i'm mainly interested in: is it silent, is the response time really 16ms-ish (seems impressive for 20" panel at this price), i presume contrast and viewing angle etc all acceptable.

or, if anyone knows of a similar product i could be interested in, please tell. my requirement is 1600x1200 native resolution (i've always worked at this res on my good old CRT and i disliked having to use 1280x1024 when i used a 17" LCD. partly cause of the size bump but also i don't like that squarier aspect ratio) and preferably a minimalist look (i.e. no speakers and junk)

Post by **NeilBlanchard** » Tue Jan 18, 2005 5:16 am

Hello:

I dunno if this applies to the 20" Benq, but here is a not-very-flattering review of the their 19" model:

http://www.anandtech.com/displays/showdoc.aspx?i=2289

roo · Post by **roo** » Tue Jan 18, 2005 1:30 pm

wim, have you taken a look at the Samsung 213T ?
I have it and I'm highly satisfied.

wim · Post by **wim** » Tue Jan 18, 2005 10:48 pm

had a read up on that 213T, it sounds a contender too. the good: 1.2" extra viewable, and better [claimed] contrast. the less good: slower 25ms response (i do play games occasionally), i prefer the looks of the benq above (nicer colours and base, buttons + logos etc concealed at the side), $500 (!) more expensive.

the (older) 19" benq is probably not representative of the new 20" panels (also that 19" is super ugly!) but that AT review was very helpful in other ways. their dell 2001FP is looking like a good find too!

..if only i could find somewhere in this blasted city to test these things out in person

niels007 · Post by **niels007** » Wed Jan 19, 2005 3:42 am

You are probably aware, but 20'' (or 21) are only worth getting if you are a resolution freak and really want 1600x1200. When you reckon this makes the fonts too small, and end up using 1280x960, you've wasted a lot of money on pixels you're not using, and you end up with poor 'interpolation'.. A 19'' 1280x1024 screen would then be a much wiser choice.

Post by **NeilBlanchard** » Wed Jan 19, 2005 5:09 am

Hello:

You should always use an LCD monitor at it's native resolution! To use it at a lower resolution totally kills the image quality. Also, the size of the icons and fonts are very easy to change via the Display Properties/Appearance control panel -- just load one of the Large or Extra Large schemes, or you can customize to your heart's content...

niels007 · Post by **niels007** » Wed Jan 19, 2005 5:15 am

True. But if you're going to increase font and icon size I would rather save the $300+ and get a 19''

sthayashi · Post by **sthayashi** » Wed Jan 19, 2005 6:39 am

niels007 wrote:You are probably aware, but 20'' (or 21) are only worth getting if you are a resolution freak and really want 1600x1200. When you reckon this makes the fonts too small, and end up using 1280x960, you've wasted a lot of money on pixels you're not using, and you end up with poor 'interpolation'.. A 19'' 1280x1024 screen would then be a much wiser choice.

I run at 1600x1200, I wear eyeglasses, am due for a visit to the eye doctor, haven't scaled up the fonts and can see the text perfectly.

In general, I've found that 1600x1200 on my 20" LCD is a lot clearer than it was on my 21" CRT.

teejay · Post by **teejay** » Wed Jan 19, 2005 11:24 am

[offtopic]
So now I'm a silencentric and a resolution freak with 2 21" Eizo's at 1920x1440, small icons, small fonts. And I thought SPCR had a policy against calling names

I have very good eyesight with my contacts in though... without them I can't even see the black mouse on its black mousepad

Which resolution you use or need highly depends on what you use your PC for IMO... my guess is wim has very good reasons for wanting a 20" 1600x1200 panel and I'm also guessing he won't be interpolating. But that's just a guess.
[/offtopic]

IMO, response times are a bit like noise ratings: their meaning can vary somewhat. Yes, I know there is a official ISO response time but that only measures black/white transitions. black/gray transitions can be much slower (up to 120ms!) and more importantly, vary a lot between two different panels. So, it always helps to have good, knowledgable reviews around to know if a specific panel is a good choice for your intended use (gaming, watching movies, photo-editing, etc). In other words: I wouldn't take any response time number as an absolute quality measure.

That Dell does sound nice... can't help you on the try-before-you-buy bit though.

wim · Post by **wim** » Thu Jan 20, 2005 5:11 am

gynah EAC froze up on a scratched CD and i'm retyping this post again

res/interpolation: of course, i will be using at native resolution and i'm aware of interpolation woes. i quite like 1600x1200 (using it now) and i don't think the fonts/icons get too small. actually, in my first post i was meaning to allude to my liking 1600x1200 as the main reason for wanting a 20" panel - so the high res is certainly not a reason why i should be avoiding the larger panels

i have simply not been able to find a panel any smaller than 20" which does 1600x1200

steve: i run at 1600x1200, i wear lenses, haven't scaled up the fonts and can see the text perfectly. and couple of days ago i got my letter from the optometrist saying am due for an eye examination too.

can you tell me about your 20" LCD?

at the moment i'm leaning towards the dell 2001FP because i've read many good reviews of it. have searched and searched not been able to find a single review of the FP2091 (it's too new maybe?)

i do wonder if it is a LG-phillips 16ms panel in there too, because if these both have the same guts (manufacturer) then i probably prefer the aesthetics of the benq.
agree that response time spec is poorly defined...and other benq panels in the past have been not reaching their response times in reviews. but with the dell, have seen many people in forums apparently happy with games performance on that monitor so that's a good sign for it. main problem with the dell seems to be bad pixels with only about half the screens being dead pixel or sub-pixel free (according to some poll on another forum).

as for try-before-you-buy, well i'm getting restless driving around this city searching for the things to no avail. i found out something that might work.. dell has this total satisfaction policy when you buy something online, you can return it within 15 days for exchange if you don't like it for whatever reason. now, if i get even one crappy sub-pixel i would consider myself not totally satisfied and i'll keep sending it back to them until i get a perfect screen.

think it will work? any catches? i have zero experience with dell

sthayashi · Post by **sthayashi** » Thu Jan 20, 2005 6:12 am

wim wrote:steve: i run at 1600x1200, i wear lenses, haven't scaled up the fonts and can see the text perfectly. and couple of days ago i got my letter from the optometrist saying am due for an eye examination too. can you tell me about your 20" LCD?

Guess what? It's a Dell 2001FP. Some people had complaints about their 2001FPs buzzing or whining or something, but I'm not one of them. The only complaint I have is that the power brick makes some noise, but when it's on the ground and I'm in my chair, I can't hear it.

However, it does make noise diagnosis much more difficult in my own computer. I hear a high pitched squeal, and it turns out to not be my hard drive but the brick. Oh well.

I really like this monitor. The only thing I didn't like about it was that I couldn't buy anything for a month or two afterwards.

If you can afford it, more power to you.

roo · Post by **roo** » Thu Jan 20, 2005 4:31 pm

wim,
This is how my 213T fits on my desk... to see fullsized 1600x1200 pictures is amazing on this monitor!

EDIT BY ADMIN: Your 1600x1200 images are WAY TOO BIG to post here, and they break the forum posting rules, which specify 640x480 max size. They have been changed to links. This is your first -- and only -- warning before excommunication.

edit: should be better, sorry about that, wouldn't want to be excommunicated...

Spod · Post by **Spod** » Fri Jan 21, 2005 6:05 am

Shrink that picture!

I wonder if any upcoming technologies will cope as well with changes of resolution as CRTs did? I still play games that use 800x600 or 1024x768, but I'd hate to be restricted to that resolution for everything, and I've not yet seen a non-CRT display that handled resolution scaling well - apart from projectors, which are a bit impractical for a computer screen.

chiahaochang · Post by **chiahaochang** » Fri Jan 21, 2005 11:16 pm

sthayashi wrote:
wim wrote:steve: i run at 1600x1200, i wear lenses, haven't scaled up the fonts and can see the text perfectly. and couple of days ago i got my letter from the optometrist saying am due for an eye examination too. can you tell me about your 20" LCD?
Guess what? It's a Dell 2001FP. Some people had complaints about their 2001FPs buzzing or whining or something, but I'm not one of them. The only complaint I have is that the power brick makes some noise, but when it's on the ground and I'm in my chair, I can't hear it.

However, it does make noise diagnosis much more difficult in my own computer. I hear a high pitched squeal, and it turns out to not be my hard drive but the brick. Oh well.

I really like this monitor. The only thing I didn't like about it was that I couldn't buy anything for a month or two afterwards. If you can afford it, more power to you.

Wim:
Just to add my 2cents.

I have the older 20" Dell LCD, a 2000FP for a few years, and I've used 2001FP at my last job too.

They are both great monitors. I wear glasses, and on my 2000FP I'm comfortable with Normal Font Size down to 8pnt, but I somtimes switch to Large Fonts for extended reading. On the 2001FPs at work, I always used Normal Fonts, the text may've been a mite sharper than the 2000FPs. Either way, I can read much smaller fonts on the LCDs than I could do on my old FD Trinitrion based IBM P76 CRT.

I do occassionally hear a high pitched whine from my monitor, it's normally after I bring it up from standby/powersave mode. It'll go away in a minute or so if I wait, or after smacking my monitor a few times. I usually smack the monitor.

I do play games on my monitor and don't notice any response time issues. But, people will argue that the games I play (mostly racing and flight sims) don't have as rapid changes of scenery as first person shooters do, but even the occassion FSP I play I don't notice any blur. I friend of mine (who's more into FPS than I) played a few FPS on my PC for a little while and said he didn't complain then. But, he's still not convinced as he always reads people complaining about motion blur on LCDs. I also don't notice any bluring when watching movies on my PC either. I guess some people maybe more sensitive to it than others.

I don't really have any complaints. I do have one stuck (on) pixel. It's a green pixel that's about 1" from the top and 4.5" from the left that only appears when there is a black/dark background in that area and there's a large white/ight area that crosses the 4.5" mark on the screen. On my desktop (black background with a buncha icons) it doesn't show, I can open a small notepad window, and if I move the window from the very left to the right, when the white bg of notepad "straddles" the 4.5" mark, I can see one green pixel where there should be black. It's weird, but it's true.

That's the only thing I don't like about the monitor. But it's a very small quibble. I still wouldn't trade it for a CRT, or a smaller LCD, and don't feel the need for a new/larger/faster LCD either.

wim · Post by **wim** » Sun Jan 23, 2005 8:40 pm

well i'm just about fed up with the benq, i've called about 20 places in this city and found about 20 places willing to sell me one, but 0 places actually have one i can take a look at. and if they order one from supplier, i have to commit to buying it first. how crap is that?!

now i'm thinking there may not even be one in this city.

sthayashi: it's comforting that you really like it, but equally anti-comforting to hear that the power brick squeals (and that the power unit is allegedly incorporated into the screen now?). i searched for other threads here and found some other squealers too.

spose i can only hope that your noise tolerance standards are at least as strict and harsh as mine!

roo: thanks for the pics. luckily i saved those nice 1600x1200 ones before they got you in trouble

did anyone else notice that banner ad in the pic? on this huge 21" monitor in a huge 1600x1200 photo it says: IT'S SO SMALL! *chortle* do you know if your panel is S-IPS or PVA or what?

Spod: i had to run doom 3 at 800x600 on a 17" (1280x1024), it wasn't so bad.. can't see myself playing it through again though. i don't know why a 1600x1200 screen has ANY trouble scaling to 800x600 (don't need to be a genius to figure that one out) but apparently they do

chiahaochang: thanks for the feedback. i'm a bit confused about your pixel.. do you mean to say you have a bad pixel that's not bad all the time? like, there is some firmware or something which somehow masks the bad sub-pixel?

chiahaochang · Post by **chiahaochang** » Sun Jan 23, 2005 11:03 pm

wim wrote:chiahaochang: thanks for the feedback. i'm a bit confused about your pixel.. do you mean to say you have a bad pixel that's not bad all the time? like, there is some firmware or something which somehow masks the bad sub-pixel?

That's right. It's bad, but not all the time. It only appears under certain conditions.

meglamaniac · Post by **meglamaniac** » Mon Jan 24, 2005 12:13 am

Aren't the Dell's just re-badged ViewSonic monitors, in the same way Dell printers are rebadged Lexmark (ew ew ew) printers?

[edit]
Yes, the Dell 2001FP is more or less a Viewsonic VP201b.
Both use the Phillips panel and both have the same functionality (screen rotate, number and type of inputs...). The difference is in the casing and probably quality of auxillary components, as the Dell is significantly cheaper.
The Phillips panel is a good one though, so you should be fine with either.

roo · Post by **roo** » Mon Jan 24, 2005 7:03 am

wim wrote: roo: thanks for the pics. luckily i saved those nice 1600x1200 ones before they got you in trouble did anyone else notice that banner ad in the pic? on this huge 21" monitor in a huge 1600x1200 photo it says: IT'S SO SMALL! *chortle* do you know if your panel is S-IPS or PVA or what?

On samsung.com it said: Type: a-si TFT/PVA

Btw, what I really like with this monitor is that is can be tilted vertically, so since most webpages scroll down, you can see more vertically, so it's better.

wim · Post by **wim** » Sat Apr 16, 2005 11:47 pm

so i got the dell. i waited until it dipped below $1k, when they had a $200 cash off on the website i took the bait. it was delivered on my birthday.

a week later they had a 20% off sale on the 2001fp and i could've had another hundred or so off. ah well, it's always the way, and i'm sure that wouldn't have happened if i hadn't just bought.

sold my hitachi 19" crt for $100.

i like this monitor. picture is crisp and sharp and beautiful. colours and games are fine afaic. i've had no troubles with bad pixels/subpixels or the backlight, the first one they shipped to me was pixel perfect. sometimes i freak out and think i've found a funny pixel, then it always turns out to be just a spec of dust. the manufacturer date is december 2004 so perhaps their yield is better these days, or maybe i just lucked out.

the power brick is still external (someone on the forums said power was built into the panel now, thankfully not so)

that little bump of electrical tape is where i covered up a green LED. i wish manufacturers didn't feel the need to put LEDs on everything nowdays, it annoys me at night time.

it is not silent, the little brick is audible. gives off a slight bzzzzz, 50Hz maybe. the noise is very faint, have to get up close and personal to detect it. nice long cable to shove the brick away somewhere under the desk.

the stand is fantastic, the black+silver matches all my other stuff, and it has 4 degrees of freedom (all the rotations and height adjustment). i love this pivot function (twist the screen quarter-revolution into portrait mode). one feature i would have liked to have is some detection of the screen pivot and an automatic remap of the screen accordingly. this would have been too cool for words. for now i was able to have a toggle between landscape and portrait mapped to shortcut CTRL+SHIFT+R (r for rotate) which is the next best thing i could've asked for.

one thing that irks me is the 5 LEDs on the front panel. there are 2 which stay on while using the panel, and when the computer is in standby one of them goes orange. i can't for the life of me figure out how to open the casing up to disconnect them, there are no screws to be found anywhere. however, it does seem to be possible because there is a mysterious slot and a little key icon next to it (perhaps: unlockable by dell serviceman weilding a magic key, but not user-serviceable?). the casing is just plastic and i'm scared to use too much force incase i bugger it up and break something. and i can't think of a way to just 'cover up' the LEDs effectively without making the front panel look crappy.

thanks to everyone for their input.

Sizzle · Post by **Sizzle** » Sun Apr 17, 2005 6:34 am

I have a Dell 2005FPW and I really like it. The buttons on the front light up to indicate which input you are on, as well as the power. However, it's not the whole button, just the writing on it. I don't even notice it. My monitor does not make any noise at all. I'm very happy with it. I had a Sony 232W and it was very, very loud.

ilh · Post by **ilh** » Sun Apr 17, 2005 7:20 am

I love my 2001FP. I managed to purchase recently when they had a sale on down to US$560: a great deal for 1600x1200. Mine too is completely silent.