New A64 build -help me keep it quiet!

natethegreat · Post by **natethegreat** » Fri Feb 25, 2005 9:07 am

I will be putting an A64 together peice by peice in the near future so I would like all of you to give me some input on my hardware choices. I will be overclocking and am aware this will make having a silent PC more difficult.

Here is what I am currently planning on buying:

Case: Antec P180
Power: SeaSonic Super Silencer 400W
Motherboard: DFI LANPARTY UT nF4 ULTRA-D
CPU: AMD Athlon 64 3200+
HSF: XP-120
Graphics: eVGA e-GeForce 6600 GT PCI Express
Video Cooler: Aerocool VM-101
Ram: Corsair Value Ram
Hard Drive: Samsung SpinPoint SATA 160 GB
Optical-Burner: NEC ND-3520A
Optical-Gaming: Samsung DVD-ROM

I am getting the case and motherboard for sure, I am going to wait for a review of the case before I decide on what to do with the fans. Everything else can be swapped out if there are better options. I will be using this computer to run F@H (for TeAm AnandTech, sorry

) Gaming, and some light photo editing and office use.

Thanks for your help

edited for spelling
Changed video cooler to Aerocool VM-101
You have converted me, PSU changed to seasonic, and thats my final answer!
Hard Drive changed to Samsung

burcakb · Post by **burcakb** » Fri Feb 25, 2005 11:55 am

WELCOME TO SPCR !!!

*wipes away the saliva and slaps head to stop staring at the P180*

How about a Seasonic, maybe the S12 for the PSU?

I think Edward Ng's passive cooling of AGP version 6600GT could be more easily applied to the PCI Express version. Thats one noise source less

"Optical-gaming". By this I assume you'll be plugging in the game cd/dvd and leave it there for good. A better idea would be get rid of that spinning noisy piece, rip your CD/DVD with Alcohol and keep a copy on your harddrive.

wooglin · Post by **wooglin** » Fri Feb 25, 2005 12:13 pm

Where, o' where, were you able to find a P180

:?::?: Or are you just teasing us and saying that you'll get one when they're finally selling.

SometimesWarrior · Post by **SometimesWarrior** » Fri Feb 25, 2005 12:30 pm

I don't think this computer will be any more difficult to silence just because you are OC'ing. 90nm Athlon 64's generate astonishingly little heat, so just slap a Nexus fan on that XP-120 heatsink and you'll have good temps and high overclocks, with very little noise. My roommate is OC'ing his 90nm A64 3000+ by 30% just with the stock heatsink and a no-name PSU.

I agree with burcakb about your video card cooler. The AeroCool VM-101 fanless heatsink is a great match for your 6600GT. The heatsink sits above the card, right by the airflow of the 120mm exhaust fan in most cases, so it stays cool. And after fixing that noise source, the power supply will be the noisiest thing.

You don't need anywhere near 500 watts to power that system: please see Power Supply Fundamentals & Recommended Units on this site for real-world wattage figures. Your system will barely scrape 150W at full load. A well-built, honestly-rated 300W PSU, like the Seasonic Super Tornado, will serve you well. If you "just don't feel comfortable" with a 300W PSU (I read AnandTech forums, I know some people there are "true believers" when it comes to zillion-watt PSU's), then the Seasonic 400W or S12 models are also quiet and have more power-delivering capability.

natethegreat · Post by **natethegreat** » Fri Feb 25, 2005 1:10 pm

Thanks for the help everyone

I should specify:
I will buy the P180 when it becomes available

I plan on upgrading the vid card sooner than later (the 6600gt is just to get started) so I was just going to use the nv-5 on it until then.

I am not sold on the OCZ yet, does anyone here know if running F@H 24/7 on an A64 will heat a Seasonic up enough to make its fans spool up constantly ? I just thought the OCZ would be stable, wouldn't care if I ran F@H all day(ie fans wouldn't turn too fast due to heat) , and it does have a 5 year warranty. Plus I will be ugrading the vid card later too. Is it really that loud or does it just cost to much? What's this ripping with alchohol all about? Haven't heard of it, I dont want to buy an extra optical drive if I don't have to but I have read movies and games don't preform well on burners. How long before that seasonic on the front page becomes available?

Well, thats all for now, keep me informed I'm liking the advice so far

Edit: I liked the Aerocool so I inserted that (I said I wanted quiet didn't I? Doesn't get much quieter than that!

)

SometimesWarrior · Post by **SometimesWarrior** » Fri Feb 25, 2005 4:33 pm

natethegreat wrote:does anyone here know if running F@H 24/7 on an A64 will heat a Seasonic up enough to make its fans spool up constantly ?

There's a chance it will spin slightly faster than start-up speed, but I doubt it will speed up at all. Here's why:

First look at the Seasonic's fan voltage vs. power consumption. This test was done in SPCR's PSU thermal simulator, so all the power consumed by the PSU load tester is then dumped into a case-shaped box. The PSU has to exhaust all the hot air, with nothing but a slow 80mm case fan to assist it. This means that the wattage numbers in the PSU test affect the fan voltage in the same way that a real system would. In fact, a real-world system would probably have a 120mm fan helping the PSU do exhaust duties, so the thermal simulator is a slightly more aggressive test than a real PC. You'll see that the Seasonic fan speed starts climbing somewhere between 90W and 150W, but the climb is very small.

Next, look at SPCR's Power Supply Fundamentals page 3. There it says that a typical 130nm A64 3800+ system draws about 100W DC when running Folding @ Home. So if that system was plugged into a Super Tornado, the fan probably wouldn't spin up much, if at all, unless the room was pretty warm.

Finally, check out Xbit-labs' 90nm vs. 130nm A64 power consumption. I think the 3800+ A64 in SPCR's example system runs at 2.4GHz, correct? So, even after you overclock your new 90nm 3200+ from 2.0GHz to 2.5GHz (here's hoping!), you will still be using about 20W less than SPCR's example A64 system at full load. In other words, your F@H power load will be around 80W DC.

I guess I could have simply said "no" in answer to your question, but I figured you'd want to know why.

natethegreat · Post by **natethegreat** » Fri Feb 25, 2005 5:35 pm

Looks like I got busted for not reading up on power supplys over here

Thank you SometimesWarrior for that excelent post, I think you answered my questions perfectly! Looks like I will read that article and probably buy a seasonic. I have a happy meal computer that I bought about a year ago (HP a430n) that I have put a thermalright si-97 in and might just be getting a seasonic to put in it (stupid oem psu is louder than a blender

) along with one for my new build! For the price they are asking I have very little to risk.

Now I just have to wait for that P180 review

natethegreat · Post by **natethegreat** » Fri Feb 25, 2005 6:16 pm

Just finished the power supply fundamentals article, gonna go with a seasonic! Now I just need to know about this whole {ripping+alchohol=silentPC}

I do have one off topic question: The P180 has a bottom mount psu bay, does anyone have any idea if a normal length power cord will be able to be connected without an extension.

Update: I just bought a seasonic for my hp, I'll let all of you know what I think!

velvet45 · Post by **velvet45** » Sat Feb 26, 2005 2:50 pm

Natethegreat:

Check on PSU requirements for the nF4 Ultra over at DFI street. The engineers over at DFI are recommending a minimum of 500 watt supply with 2 12 volts lines. This board is very high on needs for a separate clean power supply of 12V. If you dont you risk instability and failure to post (just check on all the failures with many different setups).

I realize this advice goes against that of the experts on this forum, but this board is truly turning out to be a new kind of animal with very specific requirements that are outside the norm for prior products.

You may be better off with a more forgiving board if you are going with that PSU.

natethegreat · Post by **natethegreat** » Sat Feb 26, 2005 5:47 pm

Thanks for the heads up! this is going to be my first build so I expect a few snags but I am not going to tolerate instability because I want a quiet computer. When seasonic was first reccomended I was most interested in the 500w S12, this meets what DFI reccomends correct? I only decided on the 400w model because everyone said 500W

OMG!!!:shock: Well anyways I know everyone here has good intentions and if I knew everything I wouldn't be asking for help would I

THANKS AGAIN EVERYONE, this is a great forum!

Tibors · Post by **Tibors** » Sun Feb 27, 2005 5:14 am

velvet45,

I don't have the DFI board. So I don't have any practical experience. But I think you are missing point two and three in the reason why SPCR never recommends monster PSU's.

A computer doesn't draw that much power.
A lot of PSU's on the market can't really deliver the rated wattage in real world conditions. The PSU's we recommend can.
It is not the total wattage that is important, but the wattage of the individual rails that counts.

Motherboard manufacturers know point two and three too. By advising to buy 500W+ PSU's they circumvent these problems. If a 500W PSU can only deliver 60% of its rating, that is still 300W. More than most computers need. If the totla wattage is 500W then the individual rails are most likely beefy enough too.

BTW If a single processor board for AMD64 doesn't run stable with a non-faulty 400W Seasonic PSU, then I think you should consider another board, not another PSU. Because that means it is a board that is not well designed.

natethegreat · Post by **natethegreat** » Sun Feb 27, 2005 5:41 am

Tibors, what did a 500w psu ever do to you?:D I think you are a little off base if you are suggesting that the DFI board is not well designed (btw: if you are going to slam something at least give me some proof to back up your remarks, for example a review). This is one of the most popular boards out there for enthusiasts so it makes sense that there is a lot of trobleshooting questions for this board (how many poeple do you know that buy stuff because they think it's "cool"?

) Okay I have calmed down now and am now going to buy a PC Power & Cooling 700w monster, jk

I guess a 500w power supply doesn't sound that bad to me (no pun intended).

Oh btw, please read this too! esp. post #7 and #8, and yes there are people who are running it with 350w psu's

Hetaro · Post by **Hetaro** » Sun Feb 27, 2005 6:08 am

natethegreat, I think you got Tibors wrong. He wasn't at all implying that DFI mobos are not well designed, but was saying that a normal PC, like the one you want to build, wouldn't draw the amount of power to justify purchasing a 500w PSU. Here is a proof to that (check the test called "Maximum CPU and GPU Power Consumption" and you will see that a quite "hungry" PC won't need more than 200w at peak loads).
Nobody has anything against 500w PSUs. The only bad thing about them is that usually, the higher the wattage, the higher the noise, the latter being considered in contradiction to the standards of SPCR (an mine

).
Also, marketing-wise, it's totally normal for DFI to recommend their clients to purchase at least a 500w PSU. There are many recommendations made by producers, but that doesn't necessarilly make them the most suitable for you and your standards. This is what you may call "lobbying".

natethegreat · Post by **natethegreat** » Sun Feb 27, 2005 6:27 am

I think you got me wrong

I dont want a normal PC. I want a pc with an enthusiasts/overclocking geared motherboard that happens to have very specific needs. Sorry if I have offended anyone with my post, I just prefer facts over opinions. I realize his point, a realisticly rated 300-350w psu should be able to power almost any single proc. PC out there and I have found an example of that for this board (my last post), but in this day and age manufacturers have to dumb down their reccomendations because of deceptive marketing and uninformed buyers. If DFI said that a 300w psu will work with this board then you know there will be some people that will go out and buy the cheapest 300w psu they can find and then complain that the board is garbage when it doesn't work. I will have no problem buying a 300w psu if someone can prove that it is "rock solid stable" with this board. Once again thanks for the replies everyone, I know you all have my best interests in mind

Originally posted by:Tibors
BTW If a single processor board for AMD64 doesn't run stable with a non-faulty 400W Seasonic PSU, then I think you should consider another board, not another PSU. Because that means it is a board that is not well designed.

I noticed I am not being as polite as the people offering help to me, I sincerely appologize and hope that I have not offended or insulted anyone. With that being said, I have a few comments:
1. I will be purchasing this board
2. I am willing to sacrifice quietness for stability
3. If I want a 500w psu, instead of only telling me i'm making a mistake (wich could very well be

), why not also tell me what the quietest 500w psu's are?

ilh · Post by **ilh** » Sun Feb 27, 2005 7:35 am

FWIW, I have the S12 500W with the DFI nF4 board. The S12 seems to run its fan at a minimum of 1000RPM. This is in 16C ambient (basement), no case. I haven't quieted down other things yet, Zalman 7000 on the way, Samsungs to come, etc., but there is no doubt I can hear the S12.

It has a 5-blade fan that looks something like this

although I cannot see any labels from outside the case.

I predict I have a PSU fan swap ahead of me to a Yate Loon or Nexus, but I'll wait to see how everything works out the SLK3000B on its way.

--Lee

natethegreat · Post by **natethegreat** » Sun Feb 27, 2005 7:45 am

Thank you so much ilh, This is exactly the kind of info I am looking for! Do you think the P180 will hide a litlle of the fan noise? I shuold also point out that I live in a ~700 square foot duplex apartment with my wife and two young kids so ambient noise level is usually pretty high

ilh · Post by **ilh** » Sun Feb 27, 2005 7:49 am

Don't know how much things will quiet down inside a case. This is the first time I've ever run outside a case, so I can't predict the inside/outside difference.

With that small space and young kids, you'll probably do much better at www.silentkidreview.com!

--Lee

natethegreat · Post by **natethegreat** » Sun Feb 27, 2005 8:06 am

SNL did a skit about a muzzle for kids that was called "The silencer of the Lambs" that was pretty funny

I bought the duplex as an investment (I am just living in the main floor apartment until I can buy a decent house) so I won't be living there forever. I would be very interested to know if putting the S12 in your case changes the level of noise it produces at all. Keep me informed. Thanks!

velvet45 · Post by **velvet45** » Sun Feb 27, 2005 8:07 am

Tibors and Natethegreat:

I guess I kind of opened up the flood gates of controversy here and for that I apologize to everyone here. I am a seeker for silence and dont have near the experience of many of the folks here at the forum. However, I have spent countless hours reading the experiences of those over at DFI Street and a common pattern has emerged.
The engineers have realized that this board is very hard to run with a marginal PSU and have altered their recommendation to include a PSU with separate 12 rails (V2.0 spec) and a minimum of 500 watts. This means a quality PSU with very clean power- not a bargain brand as that has been tried and usually results in failure and recommendation to purchase a new PSU at great hassle and expense.

It may well be that a quality PSU like a Seasonic will run this board. I think I have even read a few posts by some who have been successful with Seasonic 400 watt units with the NF4. The problem here is it may depend on the individual board, memory and CPU (including other sources of power-draw) that you are using as to whether you will be successful with less than the recommended spec.

In my advice to Natethegreat, I was not recommending just any PSU but a quality unit that has proven to be adequate with the nF4 (Nate- see PM). For others here that are contemplating a build with the DFI nF4, the PSU's that are proven to work reliably are: Fortron Blue Storm AX-500, the OCZ Powerstream series, or the Enermax V2.0 series (such as the one in my signature). I realize that some of the OCZ units are not truly V2.0 (only the 600 watt is to my knowledge) but they are so overbuilt that they seem to work reliably with the board anyway so I am including them -with this caveat -YMMV.

I am sure someone will consider this post as a challenge to some long held beliefs but please do some research over at DFI and provide some hands-on experiences or anecdotal evidence in your response.

Anyhow, thanks for allowing me to be a part of this discussion and lets keep this constuctive and positive so that we all may benefit

natethegreat · Post by **natethegreat** » Sun Feb 27, 2005 8:39 am

Once again thank you velvet45, To all previous posters: I apologize for any rude remarks, I was in the wrong for asuming that everybody would accept a 500W PSU as a "good buy" I guess I felt that I was being made fun of

Guess I need to grow up some more yet. I am still open to any reccomendations on all hardware (except the case and Mobo, and please take into consideration the previous info on PSU selsction for this MoBo) so if anyone else has ideas let me know.

Tibors · Post by **Tibors** » Sun Feb 27, 2005 9:25 am

velvet45,

I like this last post a lot better than the other one. In the other one it looked more like you really believed in the bigger is better no matter what preaching you see at OC oriented forums. The last post shows you thought about more details. If anybody on this board gives "unqualified" advice to buy a monster PSU, then one of the regulars should pounce on it. As explained above the picture is more complex and we want to keep this boards standards high.

Natethegreat,

I'll repeat the quote where you thought I insulted the DFI board without grounds and explain why that was not the case.

Tibors wrote:If a single processor board for AMD64 doesn't run stable with a non-faulty 400W Seasonic PSU, then I think you should consider another board, not another PSU. Because that means it is a board that is not well designed.

* If a ... board ...
First you can see I never mentioned DFI specifically in that quote. It is a general statement regarding boards in general.

* a ... 400W Seasonic PSU
These PSU's are reviewed several times by SPCR in different revisions and wattages. Don't expect regulars on this forum to link to the exact review every time they mention a Seasonic PSU.

* I don't have the exact formfactor for ATX PSU's in my head but IIRC the required voltage regulation is +/-5% for most rails. In Seasonic Super Series Revisited - Rev. A3 there is a gray box on page 2 where MikeC explains why voltage regulation isn't a big issue in SPCR reviews. The high quality PSU's he reviews all conform Period. The Seasonics stay within +/-2%. If anybody (Note: Again I am not attacking anybody specific, but making a general statement.) manages to design a motherboard that requires even tighter voltage regulation than that, then they did a lousy job. And I wouldn't trust the rest of their design. No matter how popular the board is.

Natethegreat wrote:Tibors, what did a 500w psu ever do to you?

They are too expensive. Especially when you know you only need a lower power, less expensive model.
They generally have a lower efficiency in the power range your computer really operates, because the design is optimised for arround 75% max power.
I hate marketing driven lies.

P.S. Nat I started composing this before your last post.

natethegreat · Post by **natethegreat** » Sun Feb 27, 2005 10:17 am

Tibors wrote: BTW If a single processor board for AMD64 doesn't run stable with a non-faulty 400W Seasonic PSU, then I think you should consider another board, not another PSU. Because that means it is a board that is not well designed.

I don't remember any other boards being mentioned in this thread and also, by DFI's reccomendations a non-faulty 400W seasonic PSU won't run this motherboard -so yes, you did insult it. This is not a mainstream board! It is for overclocking enthusiasts and therefore was not designed with quiet computing or budget friendly objectives.

Tibors wrote:
They are too expensive. Especially when you know you only need a lower power, less expensive model. - Nobody is making you buy them, and no, a lower power model is not going to be stable with the board I want.
They generally have a lower efficiency in the power range your computer really operates, because the design is optimised for arround 75% max power. -My opinion is that 80% effic. in the power range I am looking at would be ideal, why not put some effort into helping me find one rated for 500W

I hate marketing driven lies. -I agree

I just want to make my computer as quiet as possible while using this board, did the DFI NF4 board make the Silentpcreview nonsupported hardware list?

This is pretty close to what I am loking for.

Tibors · Post by **Tibors** » Sun Feb 27, 2005 10:30 am

Tibors wrote:Motherboard manufacturers know point two and three too. By advising to buy 500W+ PSU's they circumvent these problems.

Did you miss this in my first post

Has anybody reported to use a non-faulty 400W Seasonic and it didn't work

natethegreat · Post by **natethegreat** » Sun Feb 27, 2005 10:42 am

It was just easier to say it in my own words. I am looking into it, I would love to use a 400W unit, so if someone says it works and has some proof(website forum, hardware review, ect..) I would go with the Seasonic SS 400W. I just want my board to be stable, I really don't care what PSU or how much I guess. I just thought I would get some good reccomendations from here (not start an argument

) as this site is the place to be for quiet computing reccomendations.

Point 2 from earlier post: This has everything to do with deceptive PSU marketing, buyers can protect themselves buy researching their purchases.
Point 3 from earlier post: DFI has reccomended 480W and dual 12V rails,(I am currently attempting to find out just how many watts on each 12V rail they reccomend) I will consider all PSU's that meet their dual 12V rail requirements, not just anything with a 500W rating. Oh and if it is quiet thats good too!

Nevarion · Post by **Nevarion** » Sun Feb 27, 2005 11:21 am

If a motherboard recuire 500W thats totally bull****!
I mean, the processor overclocked = 125W (ok thats very high but...)
hdd = 10W so 3 hdd = 30
DVD-drive 10-15W (aprox?)
2 Overclocked Nvidia 6800GT= 125W
RAM= I dont now but some, maybe 10-15W?

A total of 310W absolut max + motherboard that would to you require ~150W? Yeah right....

natethegreat · Post by **natethegreat** » Sun Feb 27, 2005 11:24 am

Thanks for crapping on my thread

oh I see, most of that post wasn't there when I read it. Thanks for editing it to give me some more info

Nevarion · Post by **Nevarion** » Sun Feb 27, 2005 11:48 am

I say, if the motherboard drains anywhere near 150W well, the n you will nead a BIG heatsink or a 120mm fan @2000rpm, though I haven't seen a DFI board with neither.

natethegreat · Post by **natethegreat** » Sun Feb 27, 2005 11:51 am

I just found this thread, here is a quote from the first post:

Personal experience:

This is not recommended for anyone to try, but I was able to get a new Ultra-D system running with a $20 Rosewill 350W ATX 1.3 PSU with only 15a on the 12v rail by using the additional 12V line, floppy connector, HD connector on the mobo.

A64 3000+, 90nm (stock speed, won't OC on this PSU)
stock HSF
Gigabyte 6600 PCIE 128mb (OC core to 400)
Ultra-D
512X2 Corsair Value RAM 3200
Hitachi 7200 160gb SATA
2X DVD
1X floppy

Ran rock solid stable for 3 days now, Memtest86, Prime95 run fine, WoW runs for hours and hours Have to say I am more than a little impressed with the $20 Rosewill, but this is obviously not safe and will likely implode any minute, so after researching PSU's for hours I have ordered a Tagan TG-480.

I hope this makes some peace, I am seriously thinking that a seasonic 400W model would work fine with this motherboard

natethegreat · Post by **natethegreat** » Sun Feb 27, 2005 12:01 pm

you must of missed this picture then

It is a DFI NF4 Ultra-D with a Zalman 7700 alcu(120mm hsf), OCZ Modstream 450W in a coolermaster centurion case.

Nevarion · Post by **Nevarion** » Sun Feb 27, 2005 12:25 pm

well, that heatsink and 120mm fan are on the CPU not the Motherboard itself. Enough jabbing, just think realistic, a motherboard simply can't have a powerconsumption 120W over all other motherboards out there without a REALLY big heatsink on the back or something. Besides there has to be some functions that support a 120W consumption, and I can't see such things on the DFI mb.

Im glad, for your sake, you found that post cous I was really afraid you were going to buy the 500W PSU.