Almost decided, just a few more q:s...

[Kryten]

Hi all!

I'm in the process of putting together a new rig and my main objectives are (1) quietness, and (2) stability. Don't really care for SLI, but want PCI-e. On-board fire-wire and 8-channel audio are preferable. Intend to OC within reasonable limits, though this is a lesser factor. Background info on my research into the choice of cipset and MoBo can be found further down.

Heres the proposed setup (numbers in square brackets refer to comments underneath):
Antec SLK3000B
Seasonic SuperSilencer 460W (SS-460AGX Active PFC) [1]
2 x 120 mm Nexus RealSilent @ 5V (front fan at suspended HDs + rear fan replacement for stock TriCool)
MoBo: NF4: ASUS A8N SLI deluxe? Abit AN8? VIA: Abit AX8? Asus A8V-E?
Zalman NB47J
Athlon 3000+ Winchester with Arctic Silver Ceramique, Thermalright XP-120 & 120 mm Nexus @ 5V
Corsair TWINX1024-4400C25 DDR-DIMM 1024M Kit w/two matched CMX512-4400 CL2.5 DIMM
Sapphire Radeon X800XL 256MB with Zalman VF700-Cu [2]
2 x Samsung SpinPoint P80 160GB S-ATA 8MB 7200RPM (suspended)
NEC ND-3520A DVDRW

[1] Cannot get the SS12 variety or the 400W SuperSilencer.
[2] Couldn't find a passively cooled X800XL-card. Besides I think the airflow from the VF700 will be good for the NB.

Questions:
Fans:
1) I can also get these 120 mm fans: PAPST (12db) (4412F/2GLL-520), ADDA (16dBa) AD01212DX-A73GL and Acoustifan Clear. These are all inferior (in terms of noisiness) to the Nexus, right?
2) Another option for the front intake fan is the 80 mm Panaflo L1A instead of Nexus. Will this be more quiet?
3) Do you recommend I replace the Tricool?
Mobo:
4) What are your experiences with passive cooling with the on the NF4 NB? What about when OC:ed?
5) I have the impression that the Asus A8N SLI Deluxe is the best board (more stable and compatible than the MSI and DFI NF4). It's not significantly more expensive than the A8N-e, so maybe I should just get it anyway, even though I'm not going to use SLI. What are your thoughts? I will not in any way be disadvantaged by having an SLI board even though I won't be running SLI, right?
6) Any news on when (and if) the ASUS A8N-E Premium is coming out?

Thinking and research behind choice of chipset and MoBo:
Among the VIA K8T890-based boards I'm considering the Abit AX8 and the Asus A8V-E. The Abit only has 6 channel audio though. And the Asus has active cooling, wheras the non PCI-e equivalent, the Asus A8V, doesn't!!! So much for passive cooling on the VIA! Worse, it has only two SATA ports and there may be performance and stability issues . See e.g. this site (in German).
I think that the VIA K8T890-based boards, being newer and scarcer, aren't as thoroughly tested as the NF4 boards so they may have stability and performance issues that have not yet surfaced. Judging by the few reviews on the VIA K8T890 boards that I've had the time to read, they do not seem to match the performance or compatibility of the ASUS A8N SLI.

Because of the above, I'm also looking into the NF4-based boards. Another plus for these boards is the far broader user base. Furthermore, passive cooling of the hot NB with the Zalman NB47J is apparently feasible. This has mostly been tested on the ASUS A8N SLI. Some of these have even been run OC:ed. The passively cooled Gigabyte GA-K8N Ultra-9 is unavailable to me. MSI and DFI boards seem less stable and compatible, judging from what I've read.

Any feedback greatly appreciated,

Kryten

Edit 13/03/05: Changed layout and removed a question on memory

[Beyonder]

Fans:
1) I can also get these 120 mm fans: PAPST (12db) (4412F/2GLL-520), ADDA (16dBa) AD01212DX-A73GL and Acoustifan Clear. These are all inferior (in terms of noisiness) to the Nexus, right?

The Nexus is widely regarded as being the most quiet 120 mm fan available. Also, never trust manufacturer claims for noise; they're always either bunk or meaningless, since the testing methodology is almost never explained.

2) Another option for the front intake fan is the 80 mm Panaflo L1A instead of Nexus. Will this be more quiet?

I think you'd be happy with either, although I prefer 120 mm fan noise myself. No noise would be best , but I generally find the 120 mm noise less intrusive.

3) Do you recommend I replace the Tricool?

I'd give it a try at 7V and 5V before ruling it out--you may find that it's not that intrusive, and replacing a fan is pretty easy.

5) I have the impression that the Asus A8N SLI Deluxe is the best board (more stable and compatible than the MSI and DFI NF4). It's not significantly more expensive than the A8N-e, so maybe I should just get it anyway, even though I'm not going to use SLI. What are your thoughts? I will not in any way be disadvantaged by having an SLI board even though I won't be running SLI, right?

I almost never believe claims that one board based on a given chipset is any more or less "stable" than another. Most companies take a reference design provided by the chipset manufacturer (in this case, NVidia), rebrand it, and release it--most boards are pretty stinking close to one another. They may tweak things like board layout, but the actual circuit designs end up being close to identical. Looking for the most "stable" board among models with the same chipset is, in my opinion, a snipe hunt.

That being said, I think any NForce4 board you get is going to be very stable. I've had a few NForce boards now, and have great experiences with all of them.

7) TWINMOS RAM is really cheap in comparison to Crucial or Corsair, what's the catch? Less stable? I see many people are satisfied with TWINMOS. They probably aren't overclocking though.

I'm sure they're fine and stable if you're not OCing. If stability is your goal, I'd forgo overclocking all together.


I personally think that stability can be easily achieved by making sure your software is up to date, and not cutting edge (ie: when Longhorn comes out, don't rush out the door to get it day one--invariably, it'll have kinks to be massaged out). Get good hardware, and run it conservatively.

I think having:

1. A good power supply
2. A good chipset (Nforce has been quite stable, IMO, but Intel is probably always the safest bet. I avoid Via, although perhaps I'm just clinging to some *very* bad experiences from the mid-ninties)
3. An ATI, NVidia, or Intel video card. Don't even waste time with anything weird or off brand, you'll regret it at some point in time.

...will greatly help with stability.

[GrahamGarside]

You might consider the HIS Excalibur ATI Radeon X800 XL ICEQII TURBO, it has An arctic Cooling cooler on it which exhausts heat out of the back of the case and can be run very quietly, even during full load

[Kryten]

Thanks for the expedient replies, Beyonder and Graham!

Well, I did some more research on other NF4 MoBos, e.g. the DFI Lanparty Ultra-D / SLI. In many respects, the DFI boards are better performers than the A8N SLI and they allow greater OC-control as well. Passive cooling with the ZM-NB47J does work as SilentPC aficionados have shown, although "a little" manipulation is required ! Does anyone know if the Zalman ZM 80D-HP will fit on the SLI DFI? Methinks it looks a little tight, especially with bent NB47J pins in the vicinity. The DFI SLI is also a fair bit more expensive than the A8N SLI. Think I'll just stick to the ASUS 'cos it seems to have the greatest passive cooling potential (of the NF4 boards readily available to me).

Question to GrahamGarside (and, of course, anyone else capable of answering): Isn't the Arctic Cooling on the HIS X800XL just as prone to emitting irritating clicking sounds as the other ACs? I've spent some time researching this, but can't seem to find much info. The external venting is great from a thermal POV, but it also entails noise leakage, doesn't it... ATM, I'm more inclined to getting the Zalman ZM 80D-HP (+ 120 mm Nexus RealSilent @5V if necessary), which I think is the quietest solution available.

Hmm, something just struck me: Does anyone know if two 120 mm Nexuses will fit on the A8N SLI (I'm thinking one on the XP120, one on the ZM 80D-HP)? It'll probably fit somehow, but I suppose I can't put it on the dead centre of the top.

As far as fan control is concerned, I'm really impressed by the mCubed T-Balancer, which I'm planning on using for the Nexus fans, which reportedly handle PWM just fine. I'm under the impression that the temperature-reading problems some people have reported with the digital sensors can be attributed to their placing as suggested by the mCubed rep and several other SilentPC people in this thread as well as in this one. AFAICT, the main advantage of the analog version over the digital one is the formers ability to work in water cooled systems. The analog sensors are smaller too, so they can reach some locations better. However, I think that as long as one does some calibrating, things'll work. Or is this just a load of crock ? If so, don't be shy to let me know, I can take it .

Kryten

[GrahamGarside]

I have heard some peopel complin about clicking from arctic coolers at low voltages. I own an NV5 which when turning the fan down to 20% doesn't make a peep.
I don't know if that zalman heatpipe cooler would do an X800 series card, they were designed to cope with 9800's so unless someone can confirm that they will manage an X800 I don't know about that.

[nici]

Im just guessing here, but i would think a x800 might actually be cooler than a 9800.. Anyway, considering you need a fan anyway on the 80D-HP, you could as well go for the VF700 as save the hassle and some money. Its likely to cool as well, and its a hell of a lot easier to mount than the heatpipe coolers.. Just my opinion..

Just something i thought is worth mentioneing about the DFI board, though its mainly aimed at overclockers, it supports CPU voltage down to about 0.8V so its a great undervolter too My 3500+ Winnie is running at 1.2V currently, 33c under load and 28c idle according to smart guardian

[Erssa]

No reason to spend so much money on memory. Check this. The benefits from using that expensive corsair is pretty useless. You can get better results with cheaper crucial ballistix pc-3200 or just use any value memory and spend the extra cash on VGA. Remember a64 is more about latency then bandwith.

Sapphire has x800xl ultimate it features blue vf-700 cooler. Saves you the trouble of installation.

About motherboards. I like asus since it is pretty simple to install nb47j to it compared to e.g dfi nf4 ultra. MSI neo4 platinum sli/diamond and dfi nf4 ultra/sli-d/sli-dr have the best integrated audio. MSI platinum sli uses 24bit sound blaster live, it is the best integrated a64 solution atm. Mobos with ati xpress 200p + sb450 chip will feature azalia hd-audio, so conserning audio they would be pretty cool. Also NB is above the 16x pci-e slot. So it is better for cooling. Too bad they aren't available quite yet. I wouldn't call DFI or MSi less stable then asus, in fact. I think it is quite the opposite atm. At least asus is nowhere near MSI or DFI in overclocking (and propably not even in stability).

[Kryten]

That was some really interesting info Erssa, thank you so much for the heads-up! It's been such a long time (6 years) since I last built a computer that I wasn't even aware of the possibility of running RAM asynchronously, let alone that this can be done with no significant performance hit on the A64 platform! Kiitos! (<-- about all the Finnish I know )!

This now leads me with basically three choices for el cheapo RAM:
[1] Corsair Value Select PC3200 DDR-DIMM 1024MB Kit w/two matched Value Select 512MB (VS1GBKIT400). I think it's rated CL2.5.
[2] 2 x Crucial PC3200 DDR-DIMM 512MB CL3 5ns Unbuffered, Non-parity, 2.5V, 64MB x 64. Slightly more expensive. Rated CL3, but from what I've read about Crucuial, they underrate their RAM.
[3] 2 x TwinMOS PC3200 DDR-DIMM 512MB CL2.5 184-Pin. Rated CL2.5 I can also get a kit with "matched" RAM like the Corsair, but in the case of TWINMOS, it's slightly more expensive (Corsair same price). Is matched RAM worth it? The 512MB TWINMOS is one of Zebo's recommendations for cheap RAM, "It's same as OCZ VX anand just reviewed. Will run 2-2-2 up to 250Mhz with volts" quoted from the thread Erssa pointed me to.

I am now seriously considering the DFI LanParty Ultra-D because of the review on Anandtech and the superb modding work done by SPCR people. This would of course mean that I'd go for the Zalman VF700-Cu for GFX-cooling because of the restrictions imposed by the location of the NB.

Right, four new questions:
(1) Am I right in thinking that dropping the memory speed (by using the dividers) and maybe upping the voltage a bit will generally allow tighter timings no matter if it's rated CL3 or CL2.5?
(2) Of the RAM options listed above, which would you choose? Any experience with them?
(3) Does anyone know if the Arctic Cooler 64 can be installed on the DFI Lanparty Ultra-D w/o blocking any DIMM-slots? It looks like it's footprint may be smaller than that of the XP-120. I could use the Zalman CNPS-7000B Cu, which of does overhang the DIMM-slots, but it looks like the clearance is sufficient for most DIMMs. I really liked the idea of a Nexus-fitted XP-120 because of the nice control with the T-Balancer.
(4) I remember that Zebo stated that the 10x multiplier of the 3200+ is better than the 9x multiplier of the 3000+ for the OC:ing potential of the system when using mem-dividers. Was that just for that person's specific case? ATM I'm tired, have a headache & cold, so I can't really figure out why or if one multiplier is better than the other. All of these dang speed options on the A64 systems are really confusing if you don't have the system infront of you to play around with...

Ok, I'm going on holiday now, so don't get ticked off if I don't reply to any messages! I'll delay the purchase of my system till some time in April. Heh, maybe ASUS'll have a new revision of their MoBo:s out by then.

Once again - thanks a lot for all your input. It's been really appreciated .

Kryten

[GrahamGarside]

Dropping the memory speed does usually allow for tighter timings. For instance my corsair value select at DDR400 manages 2.5-3-3-5 1T, dropped down to DDR333 it allows 2-2-2-5 1T but performance is much much better at 400mhz

[edmil]

[edited]
This now leads me with basically three choices for el cheapo RAM:
(a) 2 x Crucial PC3200 DDR-DIMM 512MB CL3 5ns Unbuffered, Non-parity, 2.5V, 64MB x 64. Slightly more expensive.

(b) I am now seriously considering the DFI LanParty Ultra-D because of the review on Anandtech and the superb modding work done by SPCR people. This would of course mean that I'd go for the Zalman VF700-Cu for GFX-cooling because of the restrictions imposed by the location of the NB.

(c) I remember that Zebo stated that the 10x multiplier of the 3200+ is better than the 9x multiplier of the 3000+ for the OC:ing potential of the system when using mem-dividers.
Kryten

(a) If you get the Crucial RAM, telephone them and ask for single-sided 512MB modules. These place a smaller load on the memory controller and should get you a better overclock. The website provides no way of distinguishing these from the double-sided modules but Crucial will pick them out for you for the same price.

(b) You might like to consider that the Asus A8N SLi or A8N-E will give you an easier time than the DFI when trying to modify the chipset heatsink. Same goes for the Epox 9NPA Ultra (not the SLi), although clearing the CMOS on this board requires the graphics card to be removed. The Abit AN8 and Fata1ity are also better in this regard but I just hate their OTES fans, which take up space on the backplane even if their noise is not an issue (switch them off). All of these boards are capable of a decent overclock. The DFI is better for high memory bandwidth but as Zebo has shown, this platform is not really affected too much by bandwidth. Note also the Asus-supplied BIOS limits the voltage you can supply to a Winchester-core Athlon64 to 1.55V, much lower than the DFI, but to my knowledge some people have achieved 2.6 GHz within this limitation.

[edmil]

(c) Overclocking results with the Athlon64 are somewhat influenced by the fact that, at a given processor speed, there are only a finite number of discrete values that you can set for your true memory frequency. What values are available is dependent on the CPU multiplier that you are using. Now, the Athlon64's multipliers are top-locked. So the 3000+ has a multiplier of 9 and that cannot be exceeded. The 3200+ has a multiplier of 10 so it gives you the added flexibility of being able to use the 9.5x and 10x multipliers.

I will give you a concrete example. Suppose you are targeting a CPU frequency of 2500 MHz. Meanwhile, you have determined that your memory is only capable of running at, say, 220 MHz (DDR440) at timings that you regard as acceptable. If you have a 3200+, you could run at 10x 250 (=2500 MHz), with a memory setting of 166 (DDR333). This would give you a real memory frequency of 208 (DDR 416) * (see below). On the other hand, if you have only a 3000+, you would have to run at 9x 278 (=2500 MHz) with memory at DDR266, giving you a real memory frequency of only 179 MHz (DDR358). So, even though, as I have said, the Athlon64 is not really sensitive to memory bandwidth, it is possible you could benchmark a small difference in performance between these two set-ups.

* Calculations: an example
1. Take you CPU multiplier, for example 9.
2. Find your memory ratio: @ DDR266, it is 266/400 (=2/3)
3. Obtain your memory divider using the numbers from steps 1 and 2:
Divide the CPU multiplier by the memory ratio: 9 / (2/3) = 13.5
Non-integer values are rounded up. So 13.5 gives you an actual memory divider of 14.
Even if the calculated value had been 13.01, the actual divider used would still be 14.
4. Discover your real memory frequency:
Divide the CPU frequency by the memory divider: 2500 / 14 = 178.57 MHz

If you had tried the memory at DDR333:
333/400 = 5/6, so 9 / (5/6) = 10.8. Round this to 11.
2500/11 = 227.27 MHz

But this exceeds your empirically established limit of 220 MHz so this configuration would not work.

Now, with a 3200+ you could use a 10x multiplier: 10 / (5/6) = 12 exactly.
2500 / 12 = 208.33
So you would be within your memory's capabilities and at a higher frequency than possible with a 3000+.

Note you should always run the memory at 1T command rate (sometimes known as command-per-clock), regardless of your other memory timings (Cas latency etc.) or your memory frequency. However, be aware that the memory controller on the Athlon64 is not capable of running at 1T if you are using four DIMMs. The forthcoming core revision known as Venice can operate with four *single-sided* DDR400 SDRAM modules at 1T.