Looking for CD burner that also reads DVDs?

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cdplayer
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Looking for CD burner that also reads DVDs?

Post by cdplayer » Fri May 13, 2005 9:41 am

I am looking for an excellent CD burnner. I went to the store today looking at the Plextor. The salesman pointed out a Sony CD that will RW AND read DVDs. I never thought about having a CD burner that can read DVDs as well.

Can anyone suggest an excellent CD burner that also reads DVD? Of course I don't want one that will heat up the box so much that it will cause the fans to go crazy.

Thanks! :)

BenW
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Post by BenW » Fri May 13, 2005 9:46 am

Best drive around at the moment is the NEC 3540 DVD RW drive. It reads and writes DVDs and its not that expensive here in the UK (Under £40)

Have a look ;)

mathias
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Re: Looking for CD burner that also reads DVDs?

Post by mathias » Fri May 13, 2005 10:14 am

cdplayer wrote:I am looking for an excellent CD burnner. I went to the store today looking at the Plextor. The salesman pointed out a Sony CD that will RW AND read DVDs. I never thought about having a CD burner that can read DVDs as well.
There's tons of drives that do that, they're commonly refered to as combo drives. Welcome to 2002.

Wait, since this is SPCR, that should probably be Welcome to 2002
cdplayer wrote:Can anyone suggest an excellent CD burner that also reads DVD? Of course I don't want one that will heat up the box so much that it will cause the fans to go crazy.
I don't think there really is such a thing. Lots of people here avoid using optical drives frequently in favour of virtual drive programs like daemon tools or alcohol 120.

If you're specifically interested in something that writes discs reliably, AFAIK the type of discs used generally makes much more of a difference than the drive. If you want something that also writes quietly, you'll have to limit recording speed(which should also be good for burn-quality), although I think there's probably a tendancy for drive manufacturers to not focus much on how optical drives work with CD's anymore. What do you want to do with the drive anyway, maybe you'd be better of using DVDR's instead of CDR's?

Green Shoes
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Post by Green Shoes » Fri May 13, 2005 10:36 am

@ mathias :lol: :lol:

I would generally stay away from Plextor, as their drive quality has decreased greatly the last few years while their prices have increased. :roll: Also stay away from Sony and Lite-On (they're actually the same drive, one's just rebranded) as they tend to be pretty loud. The NEC that was suggested earlier is a good drive, as are most Samsung combo drives out on the market. But generally, the quality of the media matters more than the drive. The mastering engineer we generally use spends more per CD-R than most people spend per DVD-R. But, he sure has low error rates.

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Post by Mockery » Fri May 13, 2005 10:51 am

I have a Lite-On CD-RW Drive and a Lite-On DVD-RW Drive.
I ran some tests on them with that Nero program (Drivespeed?) including the Digital Audio Extraction test, where you burn a test CD full of purpose-made errors, then read it back, comparing against a desired result.
My drives both scored perfect 100's, which is apparently rather uncommon.

They read and write beautifully!

That said, they are definitely not quiet.
I've heard some very good things about ASUS optical drives, not sure how much they cost though...

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Post by m0002a » Fri May 13, 2005 10:58 am

Mockery wrote:I have a Lite-On CD-RW Drive and a Lite-On DVD-RW Drive.
I ran some tests on them with that Nero program (Drivespeed?) including the Digital Audio Extraction test, where you burn a test CD full of purpose-made errors, then read it back, comparing against a desired result.
My drives both scored perfect 100's, which is apparently rather uncommon.
Doesn't that just mean that the error correction worked 100% of the time? Somehow I have a suspicion that those results are not uncommon.

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Post by elec999 » Fri May 13, 2005 11:35 am

my suggestion will sound kind off. If you got the money, for the Plextor dvdrw 16x, it can do everything, burn dvds and read them. Also you are getting the best burner. If not, get a cheaper dvd burner, once again it can do everything, and you are also future proof, if you ever need to burn a dvd. Since we are both in Toronto, can you please tell me what store you checked out. May I suggest CanadaComputers.
Thanks

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Post by Green Shoes » Fri May 13, 2005 11:59 am

m0002a wrote: Doesn't that just mean that the error correction worked 100% of the time? Somehow I have a suspicion that those results are not uncommon.
That's correct, 100% of the drives on the market should theoretically be able to do this with 100% of the media. All it means is that EDC/ECC is working correctly. If you really want to see how well it compares you need to have software that will chart the six stages of error-correction. It's more likely that you will get faulty discs in the future when using a burner that gives a high rate of errors, even if they can usually be corrected. Not having to use ECC at all is the best way to go about it. My mastering engineer has this software; I don't. That's why I usually follow his recommendations :wink: .

cdplayer
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Post by cdplayer » Fri May 13, 2005 12:03 pm

elec999 wrote:my suggestion will sound kind off. If you got the money, for the Plextor dvdrw 16x, it can do everything, burn dvds and read them. Also you are getting the best burner. If not, get a cheaper dvd burner, once again it can do everything, and you are also future proof, if you ever need to burn a dvd. Since we are both in Toronto, can you please tell me what store you checked out. May I suggest CanadaComputers.
Thanks
Do you know the model number for the Plextor? Does it read and write to CDs and DVDs? The store I went to is called Premier Computer Canada.

Thanks! :)

cdplayer
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Post by cdplayer » Fri May 13, 2005 12:12 pm

Thanks guys for your input!!!

BenW – About the NEC 3540
Does it read and write to CDs and DVDs?

Mathias – About Alcohol 120
I know that this software emulates CDs and DVDs. Do you need to have a real CD and or a DVD?

Green Shoes – About better media
Maybe you are right about not worrying about the burner and focus in on the media.

Mockery – thanks for the info!

elec999
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Post by elec999 » Fri May 13, 2005 12:39 pm

cdplayer wrote:
elec999 wrote:my suggestion will sound kind off. If you got the money, for the Plextor dvdrw 16x, it can do everything, burn dvds and read them. Also you are getting the best burner. If not, get a cheaper dvd burner, once again it can do everything, and you are also future proof, if you ever need to burn a dvd. Since we are both in Toronto, can you please tell me what store you checked out. May I suggest CanadaComputers.
Thanks
Do you know the model number for the Plextor? Does it read and write to CDs and DVDs? The store I went to is called Premier Computer Canada.

Thanks! :)
Premier Computers is a really good site. Plextor® PX-716A Dual Layer DVD±R/RW Drive is listed on their website under optical drive, but a bit down the page, not under the first plextor you see. This drive is the best burner on the market, it can read/write cd/dvds.
Thanks

mathias
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Post by mathias » Fri May 13, 2005 4:24 pm

cdplayer wrote: Mathias – About Alcohol 120
I know that this software emulates CDs and DVDs. Do you need to have a real CD and or a DVD?
You need the disc to make the image file of it that the virtual drive app uses.
cdplayer wrote:Green Shoes – About better media
Maybe you are right about not worrying about the burner and focus in on the media.
There is one big problem with getting high quality media, you often don't know what you're getting, "major brands" usually outsource to companies like CMC magnetics(bad), moser baer, mitsubishi chemicals(good), or Taiyo Yuden(good).

cdplayer
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Post by cdplayer » Fri May 13, 2005 6:21 pm

mathias wrote: There is one big problem with getting high quality media, you often don't know what you're getting, "major brands" usually outsource to companies like CMC magnetics(bad), moser baer, mitsubishi chemicals(good), or Taiyo Yuden(good).
You are so right! IBM is a perfect example of what outsourcing is all about. I know that at one point only 38% (parts) of their PCs were made by them.

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Post by Green Shoes » Fri May 13, 2005 6:51 pm

mathias wrote:There is one big problem with getting high quality media, you often don't know what you're getting, "major brands" usually outsource to companies like CMC magnetics(bad), moser baer, mitsubishi chemicals(good), or Taiyo Yuden(good).
Taiyo Yuden is the stuff, if you can find those anywhere you're golden.

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Post by Mockery » Fri May 13, 2005 9:23 pm

Green Shoes wrote:All it means is that EDC/ECC is working correctly. If you really want to see how well it compares...
Well, i don't really need to know that, as they perform quite well enough for me. If something they have makes them work perfectly, I have no problems with that.

Just for interest, here's the info from Nero CD/DVD Speed tester:
The Advanced DAE Test will reveal all DAE problems a drive may have.
By using a special test disc, which must be created with Nero CD Speed, even the smallest error will be detected.
There are two kinds of errors which can occur:

Data Errors
These are just audio samples which are read incorrectly.
The cause of these errors is usually bad media. A solution is to use different media or decrease the drive's speed.
If the number of data errors is not too high you probably won't hear them because the internal error correction routines of the drive should be able to fix them.
Nero CD Speed detects them by comparing the read bytes with the known data from the test disc.

Sync Errors
A sync error occurs when the drive does not read the audio sector requested by the application but a sector near it.
For example when the application requests sector 1000 the drive may return the data from sector 999.
When this happens either some samples are missing or samples are repeated. This error is probably audible.
The test disc contains data which allows Nero CD Speed to determine whether the correct sector is read.

The sequential read test simulates DAE under perfect conditions. Most drives will pass this test without errors.
The harmonica read test is very though for the drive. Many drives will not pass this test without errors.
Based on the number of errors a score is given. A score of 100.0 is a perfect score.

I'll definitely look into ASUS optical drives IF either of these die one me, but i think they're hard to find from Perth, Aus.

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Post by mathias » Fri May 13, 2005 9:35 pm

cdplayer wrote:You are so right! IBM is a perfect example of what outsourcing is all about. I know that at one point only 38% (parts) of their PCs were made by them.
That's not bad at all, typically PC assemblers don't make any of the parts they use. So even people on this forum who make their own cases make an above average portion of their PCs. Then again, there were and are lots of manufacturers that could make a larger portion of the parts of a PC, like creative labs, ASUS, or even Zalman(almost, except their PSU's are basically made by fortron).

With IBM, it's not exactly one way outsourcing, they do manufacture AMD's and apple's CPUs. That's not exactly outsourcing, but at least IBM is actually doing something significant. Unlike, for example ... :x Silenx

:)

IBM might have even manufactured their own CPUs once, though there was probably a big problem in that since their CPU's were aparently identical to Cyrix's and so were low end-ish, while IBM is definitly a brand name for computers.
Green Shoes wrote:Taiyo Yuden is the stuff, if you can find those anywhere you're golden.
What's so hard about finding Yudens? Up here NCIX has them. And they seem to be always "on sale" at $40 canadian for 100 pack("4x")

...

Wow, newegg and directron don't have them.

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Post by m0002a » Fri May 13, 2005 10:03 pm

mathias wrote:
cdplayer wrote:You are so right! IBM is a perfect example of what outsourcing is all about. I know that at one point only 38% (parts) of their PCs were made by them.
That's not bad at all, typically PC assemblers don't make any of the parts they use. So even people on this forum who make their own cases make an above average portion of their PCs. Then again, there were and are lots of manufacturers that could make a larger portion of the parts of a PC, like creative labs, ASUS, or even Zalman(almost, except their PSU's are basically made by fortron).

With IBM, it's not exactly one way outsourcing, they do manufacture AMD's and apple's CPUs. That's not exactly outsourcing, but at least IBM is actually doing something significant. Unlike, for example ... :x Silenx
:)
IBM makes chips for several companies, including the CPU’s for Apple Computers. In the early days of the PC, they also made Intel 286 and 386 chips for their own use under license from Intel.

Except for the chips they manufacture, a very large percentage of IBM assembled products are built of sub-assemblies and components that are made to IBM specifications by contract manufacturers. Some of the manufacturing that is outsourced by IBM to other contract manufacturers involves IBM proprietary technology. Of course they also use standard parts that are purchased from other component manufacturers (disk drives, etc). As already noted, this is not any different than other computer manufacturers.

IBM has recently sold its PC business, and previously sold its PC disk drive business to Hitachi. The MicroElectronics Division (chips) has been on the auction block for many years, but no buyers yet. They spun off their printer business (Lexmark) years ago.

But IBM also has a huge outsourcing business of their own. They run the IT shops of many companies (which includes running IBM and non-IBM equipment). Their main competitors in this business are EDS and Computer Sciences Corp.

Outsourcing is nothing more than doing what you do best, and paying other people to do the other things. Every single company on the planet does it to some degree.

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Post by mathias » Fri May 13, 2005 10:30 pm

m0002a wrote: Outsourcing is nothing more than doing what you do best, and paying other people to do the other things. Every single company on the planet does it to some degree.
Yeah, but what's annoying about it with optical media is that they outsource the whole product, and they do it inconsistantly. Also, there is the illusion of a large variaty of products, yet the vast majority of them are cheap ritek or CMC magnetics discs. But there does seem to be a bit of a turnaraound, I saw some Moser Baer branded discs in one store(not an online store).

m0002a
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Post by m0002a » Fri May 13, 2005 10:44 pm

mathias wrote:Yeah, but what's annoying about it with optical media is that they outsource the whole product, and they do it inconsistantly. Also, there is the illusion of a large variaty of products, yet the vast majority of them are cheap ritek or CMC magnetics discs. But there does seem to be a bit of a turnaraound, I saw some Moser Baer branded discs in one store(not an online store).
That is true, it can be annoying. But distribution, marketing, etc makes up a big part of the retail cost of products, and the more competition there is on the distribution end (even if they all distribute the same product), the more efficient the supply chain becomes, and the lower the prices. There is a significant amount of technology involved in getting the product in the hands of consumers at the best possible price, even if the technology is not directly related to the product you are purchasing.

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Post by mathias » Fri May 13, 2005 10:54 pm

m0002a wrote: But distribution, marketing, etc makes up a big part of the retail cost of products, and the more competition there is on the distribution end (even if they all distribute the same product), the more efficient the supply chain becomes, and the lower the prices.
But that's a double edged sword in this case, it's probably because competition makes it cheap to ship the discs over from Taiwan that they're almost all made there. If distribution was less efficient, discs from the US and maybe Japan would stand a better chance (and I've found that I have a 9 year old american made CDR in perfect condition).

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Post by Green Shoes » Sat May 14, 2005 5:40 am

Just remember when you're debating the quality of burnable CD-Rs that even the cheapest, crappiest one you can buy is leagues better than the best-quality redbook CD. As long as you take good care of them, they shouldn't be too much of a problem. cheap DVD-Rs, on the other hand... :roll:

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Post by Ralf Hutter » Sat May 14, 2005 6:58 am

Green Shoes wrote:Just remember when you're debating the quality of burnable CD-Rs that even the cheapest, crappiest one you can buy is leagues better than the best-quality redbook CD.
No shit? What's up with that? Got any links for this newb?

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Post by tay » Sat May 14, 2005 7:05 am

Heres a discussion at CDRLABS (beware of popup) that I read recently.

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Post by frostedflakes » Sat May 14, 2005 7:20 am

I can't comment on their combo drives, but I used in ASUS 52x CD-ROM in a computer I put together for a family member. As far as quality goes, it feels and sounds very solid (heavy, no rattling, etc.). Even during spinup, it's definitely the quietest optical drive I've ever heard. And this is all out of the box, too. With software to lower the maximum read speeds it could probably be made very bearable.

No matter which drive you choose, though, chances are it'll be the loudest part of your system. This is why I copy all my CDs have been copied over to the HDD, so I have to use my optical drive as little as possible.

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Post by Green Shoes » Sat May 14, 2005 7:23 am

Nice link, tay.

Here is a discussion on the differences among various optical media in a non-forum format. Check it out. Specifically the physical differences between CD and CD-R, and then much further down the page when it discusses the use of a glass master for CD production. (I personally find the glass mastering process fascinating; google it if you want to know more. You might think it's boring as snot.)

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Post by |Romeo| » Sat May 14, 2005 8:18 am

Green Shoes wrote:Just remember when you're debating the quality of burnable CD-Rs that even the cheapest, crappiest one you can buy is leagues better than the best-quality redbook CD. As long as you take good care of them, they shouldn't be too much of a problem. cheap DVD-Rs, on the other hand... :roll:
Sorry, but you're talking absolute rubbish here. In the event of damage to a pressed disc, data may be recovered accuractely by making use of the error correction, and subsequently a disc that exhibits fewer C2 errors (for example) can be produced. However, this applies to the specific scenario when a disc has been damaged, as no pressing plant will accept a master that has C2 errors. CD writers on the other hand frequently produce C2 errors, an often uncorrectable ones at that. In the event of a write strategy mismatch, the error rate will soar.

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Post by Green Shoes » Sat May 14, 2005 9:15 am

|Romeo| wrote:
Green Shoes wrote:Just remember when you're debating the quality of burnable CD-Rs that even the cheapest, crappiest one you can buy is leagues better than the best-quality redbook CD. As long as you take good care of them, they shouldn't be too much of a problem. cheap DVD-Rs, on the other hand... :roll:
Sorry, but you're talking absolute rubbish here. In the event of damage to a pressed disc, data may be recovered accuractely by making use of the error correction, and subsequently a disc that exhibits fewer C2 errors (for example) can be produced. However, this applies to the specific scenario when a disc has been damaged, as no pressing plant will accept a master that has C2 errors. CD writers on the other hand frequently produce C2 errors, an often uncorrectable ones at that. In the event of a write strategy mismatch, the error rate will soar.
:?: :?: :?:

First of all, we're talking about the quality of the media itself, not the quality of the burn. The extra layers of substrate on a standard CD-R go a long way in keeping scratches from actually doing damage to data; a good laser will be able to read through any inconsitencies of the substrate. A pressed CD, on the other hand, while not only having less bits dedicated to error correction, also lacks the layer of substrate. If you want to talk about anecdotal evidence, I have several CDs that no CD-drive on earth can read (including the HHBs we have in the office)...and while I treat my burned CDs much worse than I treat my purchased ones, I have never had an unreadable one. Ever.

The quality of the burn is a totally different subject; but still, how do you think most masters are made? They are still burned from CD-R drives, just at the mastering house instead of our living rooms. It is an angst-filled decision for a mastering engineer, choosing the best writer paired with the best media. But it's not something any consumer will ever have to worry about.

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Post by mathias » Sat May 14, 2005 9:26 am

|Romeo| wrote:
Green Shoes wrote:Just remember when you're debating the quality of burnable CD-Rs that even the cheapest, crappiest one you can buy is leagues better than the best-quality redbook CD.
Red book refers specifically to audio CDs, you're not refering to the lower portion of the disc used for ECC, are you?
|Romeo| wrote:
Green Shoes wrote:As long as you take good care of them, they shouldn't be too much of a problem.
Sorry, but you're talking absolute rubbish here.
I agree, I have old pressed discs that are fine, and newer CDR's that are in far worse condition, some with errors in every block, and with uncorrectable errors all over.

How would I take good care of them, keep them in a radiotion sealed, temperature and pressure regulated, argon filled container?

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Post by mathias » Sat May 14, 2005 10:13 am

Green Shoes wrote:
First of all, we're talking about the quality of the media itself, not the quality of the burn. The extra layers of substrate on a standard CD-R go a long way in keeping scratches from actually doing damage to data;
I wonder how this can be when I can see through most CDRs.
Green Shoes wrote:A pressed CD, on the other hand, while not only having less bits dedicated to error correction
I've never heard of this, differences in how each block is divided are between different filesystem formats of CDs, not due to physical differences. That's why a VCD can hold more data than a data CD, and an audio CD can hold more data than a VCd or data cd.
Green Shoes wrote:If you want to talk about anecdotal evidence, I have several CDs that no CD-drive on earth can read (including the HHBs we have in the office)...and while I treat my burned CDs much worse than I treat my purchased ones, I have never had an unreadable one. Ever.
Are they all Yudens, Maxells and Mitsubishis or something? Maybe you should check the manufacturer ID codes, and check some of the less reputable ones(if you have them) with nero scandisk(if you have it).
Green Shoes wrote:The quality of the burn is a totally different subject; but still, how do you think most masters are made? They are still burned from CD-R drives, just at the mastering house instead of our living rooms. It is an angst-filled decision for a mastering engineer, choosing the best writer paired with the best media.
I think I read about a special ultra expensive media made specially for this. I also heard of some kind of DAT tapes being used for the master copy of CD's.

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Post by elec999 » Sat May 14, 2005 11:01 am

I find Ritek/Ridata SmartBuy/Prodics, pretty good. Taiyo Yuden are the best but really hard to find real ones, alot fo fakes. I baught a 50pack of Taiyo Yuden on ncix, and they were really bad fakes.
Thanks

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