TNN, or P180 with Reservator???

[shoebox9]

Hi All,

Thanks to those who gave me advice on quitening a system some months back. This "worked" but made me realise what I'm really after is a truely silent solution.

So, I'm ready to build my next box (A64 3800+ Venice, Asus M/B, etc.) and am deciding between:

a) Zalman TNNaf case
b) P180 with water cooling Reservator 1 (or "1 Plus" if I wait), & extreme undervolting of the fans (ie mCubed T-Balancer), and fanless PSU.

My assumption is that both would be equally quiet (presuming the P180 setup could handle very low air flow). So the only difference becomes HD noise. Seeing I'd be packing at least 3-4 big drives in, maybe the P180 setup would offer more silencing with it's composite materials??? Or does 5-7mm thick aluminium offer little/no resonance anyway?

I know some of you folks have the TNN cases, how is H/Drive noise?

All help appreciated,
Grahem

PS It may interst some, that my reason for wanting such extreme quieting, is that I'm developing bad tinitus (ringing in ears) directly from the noise my PC emits (even the new quiter version- P2.8 /Zalman7000, 2x120's@5v, Silenx PSU). When I'm away from this constant LOW level noise for 2-3 days the problem clears up completely. I still need to wear industrial ear muffs while I work, or my ears screem of a high pitched loud fan-like noise at night when I try to sleep. Springing for a TNN is cheaper than a career change.

[pdf27]

Looking at your reasons for quieting, you might want to think a little bit more outside the box to get the level of quietness you need.

HDDs for instance you may want to think about using a largish, remote array of disks running over a network for most of your storage (parked in say a garage or something - where there is no chance of you hearing them) with either a suspended 2.5" laptop HDD in an accoustic box or a solid state drive in the PC itself for the storage you need in it.

This may also be a situation where the solution we rarely mention here (run the PC in another room using long cables) may be relevant - it isn't for the overwhelming majority of people, but in your case might be.

A third solution is similar to the reserator but uses the buried tank in garden/remote pump route. Expensive and/or impractical, but I suspect the reserator may be a little loud for your requirements.

Finally, you may want to look at the sticky on AC fans - if you do end up needing airflow, they are probably the way to go.

Let us know how you get on - this should be a very interesting project!

[shoebox9]

Thank you DPF27,

You are suggesting things I know little of, so new areas/ideas to reseach are very welcomed.

Since my first post I've briefly disconnected or stuck my fingers in all fans in my current box, to just hear the H/Drive noise, and it is certainly VERY significant.

Purely from ignorance I'm a bit scared of editing large files (ie up to 500Mb) over a network from a remote box, but maybe with today's network speeds I wouldn't even notice the difference in Photoshop?

I can't afford true NAS (network attached storage) but would be happy to dedicate a current box to this task, if this really works.

Running my editing PC from another room is out, due to monitor cable length issues (calibrated DVI monitors, the signal degrades).

Having a tank of water outside is a cool idea! (How about a big fish tank in the next room! (My 3 year old would love this!)

Cheers,
Grahem

[pangit]

I think some of the more radical suggestions mentioned might be a bit extreme, especially if you haven't heard of them (and if you are not a highly experienced modder), so to go back to your original question, I think option 2 should be sufficient.

The difference between the two systems in noise would be tiny, but the price difference will be huge. In both systems the major source of noise will be the hard drive, so use the money you saved in not getting the TNN500 by getting a decent 2.5" hard drive and enclosing it.

With the P180 and a Reserator you make an effectively silent system with one or two very slow spinning 120mm fans in the entire case (the T-balancer will do the job admirably, but make sure you get fans that don't buzz with PWM, such as Nexus which I know you can't get here in Oz).

You don't mention graphics card, but I presume if you are using it mainly for Photoshop and not gaming, you will be getting a passively cooled one. Or you could get a water block and cool it with the Reserator.

BTW, none of the above is based on personal experience, just what I've read around here. The only time I've seen a TNN case in action is at Cebit, where it is impossible to judge for noise levels!

EDIT: I've just spotted your "3-4 big drives" comment. I would say have a close look at how much "live" storage space you really need, as silencing them will not be easy. A couple of ideas:

• External USB drive(s) for accessing infrequently used data (turned off when not in use - always the best solution to silence when you can )
• Burn all your archived files onto DVD and use just one drive!
• If you really need all that storage on tap: remote PC as file server as per pdf's suggestion. Use a wired network for maximum speed/data integrity/security. Just get a basic cheap PC and stick your 3-4 drives in it.
• 1 or 2 larger capacity quiet drives, enclosed and/or suspended (if you can get them large enough - I don't know what your requirements are)

[shoebox9]

PS I can't find that "AC Fans" sticky.

With all respect to this great site, I often have a lot of problems with the search facility. I.e. in this case getting 9000+ results in my search for AC fans, because both words appear in an entire thread. If an exact phrase option existed, it would be helpful.

Cheers,
Grahem

[shoebox9]

Thanks Pangit,

My current box has 4 200-250GB drives, + 60GB O/S drive. A remote box with 1000Gbit network would leave me needing only 2 drives- One for O/S and windows scratch disk, the second for Photoshop scratch disk, and perhaps day to day work in progress. A solid state drive would be great for this guy, but they are still quite expensive.

I cringe at the thought of using a 2.5" 5400rpm baby, as system performance will definately suffer. I only need 2D not 3D performance, but it is still fairly system intensive. Other photographers use 10,000 rpm raptors for their O/S and work-in-progress drives.

Yes, I use a Matrox P650 passively cooled graphics card, so this is no big deal.

Is there any reason I couldn't move my box through the wall to outside? -ie Build some sort of secure, vented, weather proof box, and attach the box (with PC inside) to the outside of the concreate block outside-wall my PC currently sits against. Outside temps vary here from -5C to 34C on very rare occasions in summer.

Does anything not like the cold? Would 34C be a problem if fan noise wasn't?

[tibetan mod king]

Thanks Pangit,

My current box has 4 200-250GB drives, + 60GB O/S drive. A remote box with 1000Gbit network would leave me needing only 2 drives- One for O/S and windows scratch disk, the second for Photoshop scratch disk, and perhaps day to day work in progress. A solid state drive would be great for this guy, but they are still quite expensive.

I cringe at the thought of using a 2.5" 5400rpm baby, as system performance will definately suffer. I only need 2D not 3D performance, but it is still fairly system intensive. Other photographers use 10,000 rpm raptors for their O/S and work-in-progress drives.

Yes, I use a Matrox P650 passively cooled graphics card, so this is no big deal.

Is there any reason I couldn't move my box through the wall to outside? -ie Build some sort of secure, vented, weather proof box, and attach the box (with PC inside) to the outside of the concreate block outside-wall my PC currently sits against. Outside temps vary here from -5C to 34C on very rare occasions in summer.

Does anything not like the cold? Would 34C be a problem if fan noise wasn't?

Another option would be to get the P180 case and go with four 2.5" drives -- four 100GB SATA Seagate's Momentus 7200.1 -- with a SATA RAID controller that features fast write times, say the Broadcom 4852D, $365. These new Seagates feature 7200rpm as you may guess and are speedy little brats.

If you are going with a PCI-E system, then look at Areca's 4-port SATA RAID controller with the cache on it. Broadcom's next gen controller will have PCI-E, so depending on timetable, you may have a choice. You could mix and match RAID 0, 1, or 10 to get a system whose disk performance and reliability meets your needs.

Using the NoVibes 2.5" kits which suspend a 2.5" drive in a 3.5" bay, you could also suspend these drives and not worry about cooling as you can have low speed fans blowing cool air on them at all times and excellent spacing. I don't know how well the NoVibes works vertically which is something to think about for the lower P180 drive bay which mounts drives vertically.

The performance of the Broadcom with two 7200.1 drives in RAID0 should be more than satisfactory. It may be even a big RAID 10 volume would do the trick. With a good SATA RAID controller, you can try out various options and see what works for you.

BTW, if you were running on an Intel-based system, say with a 955X with the new four port SATA II RAID controller, you could potentially get by with just two Momentus 7200.1 100GB drives. The Intel controller and RAID software lets you mix and match RAID levels on the same drives (Matrix RAID), so you could run RAID1 for your OS and apps, RAID 0 for your OS swap, and RAID 0 for your app swap, and even RAID1 for your app data. Or just put your app data on a network/firewire drive of some sort.

There are a few ways to get fast remote disk I/O at reasonable cost:

1. Use Adaptec's FW800 card, long FW800 cables and a FW800 repeater. That will give you 30' of cable to put your bulk storage drives far away. You could even go with just two 2.5" Momentus 7200.1 suspended drives in the P180 and put all the rest of the drives 30' away. Use a FW800 enclosure of your choice -- with or without RAID0, 1, 5, etc. Of course FW800 maxes out at 800Mbit/sec, nothing much today. Even eSATA gives you 1.5 or 3.0 Gbit/sec, albeit only for short cable runs. However, for that 30' or so, FW800 gives you decent speed at decent cost.

2. Build your own machine that has a bunch of drives in it and either PCI-E or PCI-X expansion slots. Make sure the machine has at least two GigE ports. Make sure your new workstation has at least two GigE ports. Now get a GigE switch that supports link aggregation and run the GigE full duplex. With two links you will now have 4Gbit/sec full-duplex LAN to your storage -- that's 2Gbit up and 2Gbit down simultaneously. Now you can put your storage as far away as you want. At 2Gbit you've got more than SATA 1.0 speed at your disposal (1.5Gbit) and enough to handle the burst output of a decent disk array. And if you need more, just buy more GigE links and do more link aggregation!

With the latter approach, you have great speed, error-checking via TCP/IP and higher-level protocols, and great flexibility. Network cards and link-aggregating switches do not cost that much money. The key here is having enough slots for the GigE ports.

Currently I still have a couple noisy drives in my main workstation. But I have moved my bulk storage to the garage and connect via GigE. It is reliable and reasonably fast. My server came with two GigE on the motherboard, so I am doing single GigE to dual GigE for the time being. I will add another GigE to my workstation soon and then have 2Gbit up+down.

My approach will be using the Momentus 7200.1 drives and GigE. I have a lot of FW400, a bit of FW800, and the Adaptec 8300 controller. The Firewire is great, but it doesn't scale and it doesn't reach the garage without a lot of repeaters. So the Mulit-GigE ends up being cheaper in the big picture, for me at least.

[tibetan mod king]

Thanks Pangit,

My current box has 4 200-250GB drives, + 60GB O/S drive. A remote box with 1000Gbit network would leave me needing only 2 drives- One for O/S and windows scratch disk, the second for Photoshop scratch disk, and perhaps day to day work in progress. A solid state drive would be great for this guy, but they are still quite expensive.

I cringe at the thought of using a 2.5" 5400rpm baby, as system performance will definately suffer. I only need 2D not 3D performance, but it is still fairly system intensive. Other photographers use 10,000 rpm raptors for their O/S and work-in-progress drives.

Yes, I use a Matrox P650 passively cooled graphics card, so this is no big deal.

Is there any reason I couldn't move my box through the wall to outside? -ie Build some sort of secure, vented, weather proof box, and attach the box (with PC inside) to the outside of the concreate block outside-wall my PC currently sits against. Outside temps vary here from -5C to 34C on very rare occasions in summer.

Does anything not like the cold? Would 34C be a problem if fan noise wasn't?

Okay, one more idea here before you bust out the concrete drill:


http://www.custom-consoles.com/Isobox_studio.php


"hear yourself think different"
http://norenproducts.com/Acoustilock/gCAB.html
http://www.macmidimusic.com/prod.itml/icOid/9200

You could likely put a P180 inside of either isolation box and then feel free to put the 10K raptors you want in the P180. As the P180 has very good air flow, it should work well with a sound box.

I am surprised none of the silent mods I have seen have thought "big box". It would take some particle board and a bunch of acoustic foam and some time, but you could build a big quiet box for just about any PC. Complete with double pane access door. Of if you want to go nuts, TWO double-pane access doors with dead air space between them.

[pdf27]

PS I can't find that "AC Fans" sticky.

http://forums.silentpcreview.com/viewtopic.php?t=16393

[JimX]

Hi,

I can certainly hear my 2 hard disks in my TNN and i wouldn't even think of putting more discs in there! Too cramped! Even with a 7V fan in the back the HDD temps are 35-38c with 26c room temp. You'd have to build a cage with suspended drives in the bottom of the case and forget the PCI slots. Get the P180 and/or try the network solutions suggested.

Jim

[MikeC]

shoebox9 -- for your situation, if you want absolute silence, here's what I'd do.

1) Get a powerful Pentium M system -- the ideal board is one that will take a socket 478 HS.
2) Build it in a fanless P180 with a fanless PSU and fanless VGA. Remove the VGA duct and all the fans, and close up the back panel 120mm vent. Remove all the HDD cages.
3) Use a Scythe 2005 or Ninja HS -- without a fan -- with fins set up for down/up convection airflow.
4) Buy an external SATA card and an external SATA storage bank. You can boot off e-SATA and it can be placed up to 2 meters away, and eSATA is as fast as any internal storage interface. Not cheap right now, but...
5) Build a heavy box of medite board about 1 cubic foot internal dimension, with a 1" by 12" slot opening in the bottom panel at the front and a similar slot on the back panel, at the top. Line the box with a copious qty. of acoustic damping material, but don't block the two slots or access between them and the eSATA HDD bank you will place in this box. The slot openings are for airflow.
6) Place the box on at least 1" thick foam that will not compress much (but again, don't block the bottom slot. Put it, ideally, in a big closet near your PC, or at least under a desk, etc.

Steps 5 & 6 assumes the eSATA cannot be more than 2 meters. But there might be relay amplifiers or other extension devices? And a cable specialist might be able to custom build something usable that's longer. If it is long enough -- 5 meters? -- you should be able to put the external HDDs far enough away in a distant closet (filled with hanging clothes for damping, ideally) for the noise to be inaudible where you are.

The end result should be a silent PC.

[kcg]

Hi,

I can certainly hear my 2 hard disks in my TNN and i wouldn't even think of putting more discs in there! Too cramped! Even with a 7V fan in the back the HDD temps are 35-38c with 26c room temp. You'd have to build a cage with suspended drives in the bottom of the case and forget the PCI slots. Get the P180 and/or try the network solutions suggested.

Jim

True w.r.t discs, but I don't know about P180! If money are not question here and you really like AMD64 fan-less, then I would go with TNN and some el-cheapo PC holding your 3-4 big discs, while TNN should be with only 2.5" notebook drive. I'm sure if you use M/B builtin 1GbitE you can use some kind of disc silencing box at the bottom of the case. So far I've not been able to built something like that, my disc is just lying on top of the foam at the bottom of the case. Yes, I can hear it, but overall day street noice is _much_ higher. Anyway, IMHO TNN is an excelent starting option for true noice-less computer if you do some of these changes.

Cheers,
Karel

[pdf27]

Purely from ignorance I'm a bit scared of editing large files (ie up to 500Mb) over a network from a remote box, but maybe with today's network speeds I wouldn't even notice the difference in Photoshop?
I can't afford true NAS (network attached storage) but would be happy to dedicate a current box to this task, if this really works.

Just spotted this in another thread and thought it would be relevant.

http://www.liewcf.com/blog/archives/200 ... n-seconds/
http://www.cdr-info.com/Sections/News/D ... wsId=14213

Looks relatively cheap, and should be totally silent. Were you to go with this and follow the rest of Mike's suggestions, you would have a computer with no moving parts (and so probably no noise). Plus, performance may even be improved - the 8 gig storage should be enough for the OS, programs and the file you're currently working on. You'll need some form of removeable HDD as a backup in case you have a longish power cut, but otherwise it looks ideal for what you're after.

[|Romeo|]

Photoshop over Gigabit Ethernet is perfectly doable, I have a friend who does is all the time. Doing the maths, you're almost certainly going to be limited by the disc, whether it's in the case, or in a file server somewhere else.

If you go with the iram as well, invest in a pair of UPS units -one for your workstation and one for your file server. Make sure that both UPS units are large ones, and set the low battery alarm level aggressivly (70% or so). Set this to run your a backup program such as Ghost or True Image from the command line (both support this), creating an incremental image on your server. Ergo, if the power does not come back up within a few hours (don't trust what Gigabyte say about how long their backup battery will last -it'll probably not do that after not so very long) you have an image of your iram which you can quickly restore and get working again once the power comes back up.

Hope this helps.

[teknerd]

I'd definately second the recent posts. I have used photoshop and premiere over gigabit ethernet with no problem.

do your main storage drives over the gigabit ethernet to a fileserver in another room.
for your main OS drive go one of two ways. (1)get an external SATA box and stick a raptor in there, then you can put it upto 6 feet away, ideally in a closet away from your ears. or (2) if you can limit your os drive to 4 or 8 gigs, then go with an iram.
finally, get a gigabyte iram for your photoshop scratch disk (or just use a ton of ram on your mobo).

[shoebox9]

Thanks all,

I've been stunned at the quality of the suggestions offered here.

The iRAM product certainly looks hot- I'll grab one to play with as soon as they become available.

I'm currently building a silencing box for my H/Drives, the outcome of which will determin what happens next. I'll keep you all posted.

Since my original post I've also discovered that a lot of my problem was being caused by a 21" NEC CRT monitor giving out a high pitch scream, just beyond what my ears were discerning. This was quite a discovery. The monitor was permanently decommisioned the same day, and already the high pitch "ringing" noise in my ears has reduced considerably.

Thanks again,
Grahem

[acaurora]

By the way, it's "reserator" *points at topic

[wim]

shoebox9 -- for your situation, if you want absolute silence, here's what I'd do...

omg MikeC suggested a fanless build
and an interesting reason for the top blowhole in P180 design.
i wonder, when researching for upcoming article, did he find out that mobo VR etc. will all be ok with natural convection in a low power build?