I did what everybody told me not to do ;-)

Got a shopping cart of parts that you want opinions on? Get advice from members on your planned or existing system (or upgrade).

Moderators: NeilBlanchard, Ralf Hutter, sthayashi, Lawrence Lee

knutinh
Posts: 99
Joined: Fri Nov 14, 2003 5:53 am

I did what everybody told me not to do ;-)

Post by knutinh » Sun Sep 04, 2005 10:49 pm

Despite everyone advicing against intel p4, I went that route for my HTPC...

SilverStone Lascala LC11M, Silver
Asus P5LD2-VM, i955G, LGA775, Dual Core
Pentium4 Prescott 630, 3.0GHz, S775
Kingston DDR2 512MB, DDR2-667
Zalman ZM-CS1, Socket 775 Clip Support
Zalman CNPS7000B-Cu
SilverStone SST-RC01 PCI-E Riser Card
NEC ND-3540, DVD±RW, Silver

Will be using Samsung harddrive, ATI 550 analog tv tuner and Terratec DVB-T tuner. Hopefully, it will all work out. Will report once the hardware is in house :-)

regards
Knut Inge

vertigo
Posts: 647
Joined: Sun Apr 17, 2005 6:09 am
Location: UK

Post by vertigo » Mon Sep 05, 2005 1:49 am

Despite everyone advicing against intel p4, I went that route for my HTPC...
I suppose you are one of those "I only buy Intel" types. Or perhaps you wanted DDR2, which is moot anyway. It sounds to me like shot yourself in the foot, but it is your foot after all.

knutinh
Posts: 99
Joined: Fri Nov 14, 2003 5:53 am

Post by knutinh » Mon Sep 05, 2005 2:04 am

That was the response that I expected. In fact, I tried very hard to go the AMD route. But the availability of mATX s939 boards along with known performance problems in ffdshow for AMD was simply to big.

Please not that I am aware that AMD produce very good processors in terms of performance, and especially in terms of performance/energy. For this single application, however, for some reason people that have tried a range of components all recommend intel.

Now the problem of cooling and silencing the beast comes into play. I hope that speedstep will work as expected, and that the trusted zalman cooler will do as good a job as it does in my office p4 s478. I have noticed that the mobo needs two ram sticks for dual channel operation. How much of a speed hit will my single-stick solution be?

best regards
Knut Inge

PS. As I have already purchased the CPU I don think it is fruitful to discuss how stupid a choice that was. Suffice to say that I was aware of problems with both platforms and did a deliberate choice :-)

Zorander
Posts: 202
Joined: Wed May 11, 2005 2:11 am
Location: Sydney, Australia

Post by Zorander » Mon Sep 05, 2005 7:02 am

knutinh wrote:...along with known performance problems in ffdshow for AMD was simply to big.
What performance problem??

knutinh
Posts: 99
Joined: Fri Nov 14, 2003 5:53 am

Post by knutinh » Mon Sep 05, 2005 7:59 am

http://www.hardware.no/artikkel/13774/2

(freely translated:)
"..But then came what turned my choice on CPU upside down : ffdshow started to come in Andys optimized SSE2-versions, that worked clearly best with Pentium 4. .."
"..This wasnt chosen at random, but was built after a few messages back and forth between me and Andy (he's working for a major computer game studio in Germany as a 3d effects programmer. As ffdshow under VMR9 use the 3d-part of the graphics card, it should be a good background).."

"..The following points were brought to me on how to get the best performance using this branch of ffdshow. It is still counted as the best one, even though official Source Forge and other releases have appeared later :

1. As high clock (MHz) as possible, meaning real clock cycles. AMD grade their processors from general performance comparing to a Pentium 4 processor, but the real frequency is lower. A non-overclocked AMD Athlon 64 3800+ doesnt run at 3800MHZ, but 2400MHz.

2. Intel SSE2-instructions have according to many reports somewhat higher performance than AMDs, even though AMD is closing the gap on newer processors..."

".. 3. Hyper threading doesn help ffdshow in any way. Moreover, a pentium 4 using HT is more difficult to overclock stable, therefore I disable it.."

"..4. Memory have to run at 1:1, ie synchronously. asynchronous mem clock may mean higher overclocking, but lower performance in ffdshow

5. memory timings have no influence on ffdshow performance. In other words, one may disregard these when shopping memory.. "

".. 6. dual-channel memory is almost a necessity for optimal system performance. One has to have two identical memory modules

7. There is no need for large amounts of memory, 512MB is enough. There are no performance enhencements beyond that

I have to add that I was recently in contact with Andy to check if conditions have changed, and they have, but not enough. AMD has gained some performance for the value for ffdshow use, but there is still a lead to the Pentium 4.."

End quote

knutinh
Posts: 99
Joined: Fri Nov 14, 2003 5:53 am

Post by knutinh » Mon Sep 05, 2005 8:03 am

Please dont accuse me of being an Intel fanboy or anything. I am simply referring the general consensus from forums that deal mainly in upscaling and presenting DVD or HD content on a projector or flat-screen. I find it incredible that there should be something special about this single application (then again, p4 use to do relatively well in video encodin/decoding, perhaps due to bandwidth?).

best regards
Knut Inge

vertigo
Posts: 647
Joined: Sun Apr 17, 2005 6:09 am
Location: UK

Post by vertigo » Mon Sep 05, 2005 10:09 am

Please dont accuse me of being an Intel fanboy or anything. I am simply referring the general consensus from forums that deal mainly in upscaling and presenting DVD or HD content on a projector or flat-screen. I find it incredible that there should be something special about this single application (then again, p4 use to do relatively well in video encodin/decoding, perhaps due to bandwidth?).
You say you aren't a fanboy, but I think there is evidence you are. Notice how you say "I find it incredible that there should be something special about this single application". This tells me that the Intel is faster in this app and you don't think it is something unique to that app. That means you think the Intel cpu's are faster in general. (Well, maybe I am being harsh, you did then constrain it to video apps).

Anyhow, why do you need to antialias DVD content anyway? It seems gross overkill to me. I would rather take a quieter and cooler PC.

knutinh
Posts: 99
Joined: Fri Nov 14, 2003 5:53 am

Post by knutinh » Mon Sep 05, 2005 10:52 am

A misunderstanding: "I find it incredible that there should be something special about this single application "

What I meant was that it IS something special about this application, I just dont understand why :-)

This just shows how different people prioritize different, and that there are no absolute andswers. For playing back DVDs on a screen other than 576x720 pixels you have to scale somewhere. Id rather do it with quality software than bad hardware, but thats just me.

Hopefully, you can be open enough to agree with me that there are different tools to different problems. Choosing the tool that one considers best suited for a problem does not make a fanboy...

K

vertigo
Posts: 647
Joined: Sun Apr 17, 2005 6:09 am
Location: UK

Post by vertigo » Mon Sep 05, 2005 11:30 am

Id rather do it with quality software than bad hardware, but thats just me.
But a Prescott is bad hardware... (this is a joke, don't take it seriously)
Hopefully, you can be open enough to agree with me that there are different tools to different problems.
I can and do, but for me a quiet HTPC is more valuable than one that can do the custom scaling. It all a matter of priorities. I certainly respect your right to buy hardware based on what you decide you need. I don't think you are a fanboy for doing it either, if you indeed use the extra performance that CPU affords you.

JonV
Posts: 107
Joined: Mon Aug 15, 2005 8:05 pm

Post by JonV » Mon Sep 05, 2005 11:57 am

Funny how you manage to turn a thing like Pentium-optimized binaries around and call it AMD performance problems...

Arguments against your choice of CPU may not be fruitful for you, but it's certainly fruitful for anyone else reading this and trying to decide between the available options. The power and thermal advantages of AMD are so profound that you'll just have to tolerate some arguments in this particular forum.

StarfishChris
Posts: 968
Joined: Fri Jan 07, 2005 7:13 pm
Location: Bristol, UK
Contact:

Post by StarfishChris » Mon Sep 05, 2005 1:36 pm

I hope your motherboard is undervoltable because a Prescott and Zalman 7000 won't be a quiet combination if you want to maintain clock speed. An XP-120 would really help you but isn't feasible for an HTPC. With those components the best advice I can give is make sure you can extract the processor heat as quickly as possible and give yourself sufficient intake area. I don't know if a heatpipe cooler (e.g. Freezer 4?) would be a better option, anyone else have suggestions?


It'll be great if you manage it, but it won't be an easy job - after all, a comparable AMD system would generate about 1/3 of the heat. How does Pentium M or the Northwood core compare for this app?

knutinh
Posts: 99
Joined: Fri Nov 14, 2003 5:53 am

Post by knutinh » Mon Sep 05, 2005 1:39 pm

You guys...

So judging by your logic I should chose the hardware that produce positively worse results for my specific application because the binaries are unfair? You got to be kidding me!

Anyone reading this forum NOT aware of the constant AMD vs Intel battle can use the search button in this forum or google and find endless raging wars between stupid fanatics on both sides. I am more than willing to state that AMD has the lead in most cathegories as well as general use. A pure HTPC is no more general than a dishwasher. Do you claim that a dishwasher should use AMD 64??? As the forum starter I kindly ask you to start a new tread titled 'AMD vs Intel for HTPC' or something, and keep with the topic here

Politely
Knut Inge

knutinh
Posts: 99
Joined: Fri Nov 14, 2003 5:53 am

Post by knutinh » Mon Sep 05, 2005 1:42 pm

StarfishChris wrote:I hope your motherboard is undervoltable because a Prescott and Zalman 7000 won't be a quiet combination if you want to maintain clock speed. An XP-120 would really help you but isn't feasible for an HTPC. With those components the best advice I can give is make sure you can extract the processor heat as quickly as possible and give yourself sufficient intake area. I don't know if a heatpipe cooler (e.g. Freezer 4?) would be a better option, anyone else have suggestions?


It'll be great if you manage it, but it won't be an easy job - after all, a comparable AMD system would generate about 1/3 of the heat. How does Pentium M or the Northwood core compare for this app?
Thanks for your valuable input. This case has a perforated grille covering most of the cooler, meaning that it is sucking in cool air. Getting rid of the hot air may be another problem... There are 2x 80mm chassis fans I think.

Pentium M may work out - barely, but it would be a more expensive road. I am hoping that speedstep will help out somewhat? 2 GHz me think?

best regards
Knut Inge

knutinh
Posts: 99
Joined: Fri Nov 14, 2003 5:53 am

Post by knutinh » Mon Sep 05, 2005 1:45 pm

Another question is how a passively cooled graphics card is gonna line up with the case physically.

I am sort of hoping that next-gen dual-core working on a smaller process will be cooler. Given intels recent trent that may be overly optimistic ;-)

k.

lm
Friend of SPCR
Posts: 1251
Joined: Wed Dec 17, 2003 6:14 am
Location: Finland

Post by lm » Mon Sep 05, 2005 1:51 pm

knutinh wrote:As the forum starter I kindly ask you to start a new tread titled 'AMD vs Intel for HTPC' or something, and keep with the topic here

Politely
Knut Inge
As the thread starter, with a topic of "I did what everybody told me not to do ;-)", please spesify what actually is ontopic if AMD vs Intel is offtopic? I'm kind of puzzled what this thread should be about then? I mean, I really kind of thought this is about that :P

knutinh
Posts: 99
Joined: Fri Nov 14, 2003 5:53 am

Post by knutinh » Mon Sep 05, 2005 1:54 pm

I was hoping to get some good advice on setting up and cooling a system that produce a lot of heat. I sort of anticipated getting a lot of heat from silencing fantasts (pun intended) and therefore I chose the title.

-k

teknerd
Posts: 378
Joined: Sat Nov 13, 2004 5:33 pm

Post by teknerd » Mon Sep 05, 2005 1:56 pm

knutinh,
First, i wish you the best of luck in keeping that setup cool and quiet, you'll need it.

second, everyone, stop attacking people because they make their own decisions. for knutinh the extra performance boost was highest on his list of priorities. Other people (myself included) would have gone a different (read AMD) route, but if he wants to use intel fine (and no it doesnt make him a fanboy).

third, unfortunately i dont believe you can fit an xp-120 or any large sized cooler inside an LC-11, so you may want to consider a different case that is taller (maybe an lc-14 or 17)

fourth, you should really get the dual channel ram. Because of the architecture of intel chips, they need as much memory bandwith as possible (not to mention you should really have at least 1GB of RAM anyway).

finally, if this ends up not working out (which it very well might not, there's always that possiblity, of course it may also work out fine) I will be more than willing to help you with ideas for a reconfiguration without any "I told you so"'s.

good luck!

StarfishChris
Posts: 968
Joined: Fri Jan 07, 2005 7:13 pm
Location: Bristol, UK
Contact:

Post by StarfishChris » Mon Sep 05, 2005 2:03 pm

I've never experienced SpeedStep firsthand, but by the sounds of it ffdshow will be a heavy load making SS useless while you watch movies. I am not particularly concerned about idle as heat production is far less, so fans can run slower and quieter.

It's fortunate that fresh air is going directly to the cooler, but how will the HDD stay cool? Hardmounting is an option but don't go with a Spinpoint, choose a low-vibration drive (e.g. Western Digital) or use a notebook drive instead.

You have two 80mm exhaust fans - quieter for the same airflow than a 120mm - however they won't handle backpressure as well as the 120mm so it is important that the cooler grille is open enough to reduce the noise/increase airflow. A hexagonal grill should be fine but a circular grill will impede airflow greatly, if you can't see it and don't mind the look I would go as far as cut it out and screw in a wire grille instead. Alternatively enlarge other intake areas (if any, and if they are too small).

knutinh
Posts: 99
Joined: Fri Nov 14, 2003 5:53 am

Post by knutinh » Mon Sep 05, 2005 2:08 pm

Now we are getting somewhere. I did a mistake ordering that 512MB. I`ll see if I can change it for 2x256MB. According to the guide I am following, 512MB is enough. It makes sense that streming many GB of data through CPU and decoding it is mainly bandwidth dependant (as the dataset cant fit in ram anyways).

I wanted the lc 11 because it is slick :-) It also fits my hifi rack. It should fit a Zalman cnps 7000B CU though. I think this is one of the most recommended cpu coolers of all time?

It is so nice to talk to constructive, unbiased and helpful people =) I will get back with a report as soon as the kit is in the house.

http://htpcnews.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=16352
quote:
" built a similar HTPC and its working out great.

Aristec HT-400, Black
Asus P5GD1 Pro, i915P, LGA775
Pentium4 Prescott, 3.2GHz, LGA775
Kingston DDR2 512MB 2 sticks
Zalman ZM-CS1, Socket 775 Clip Support
Zalman CNPS7000B-Cu
Zalman VF700-Cu
Samsung, DVD±RW, Black

Using Seagate Hard Drives, and a Leadtek PVR2000. I also use MediaPortal (Acutally I prefer MediaPortal, due to its scalability and customizable features)

The only thing I did notice, it gets really hot, if not vented properly. The case has to be outside, or exposed. Originally we had it in a special cabinet with only the face of the case exposed, that caused problems with heat. "

I dont know much about that case, nut I expect similar results. Except slower CPU and no GFX (yet)

-k

knutinh
Posts: 99
Joined: Fri Nov 14, 2003 5:53 am

Post by knutinh » Mon Sep 05, 2005 2:13 pm

Note this picture in the excelent sudhian review:
http://images.sudhian.com/review/cases_ ... 11m.14.jpg

The entire cnps 7000 is clearly visible through a fine bottom mesh.

also:
http://images.sudhian.com/review/cases_ ... 11m.07.jpg

T.J.(iceman)
Posts: 27
Joined: Tue Aug 09, 2005 11:00 am
Location: Kirkenes/Norway

Post by T.J.(iceman) » Mon Sep 05, 2005 2:26 pm

im sick of my p4, it just cant do anything :x
i would go for both good hardware and software, not just 1 of them.
i use ffdshow and p4 it works for now but my graphics is getting old(5700)
and about the m-atx problem u had, u don need m-ATX to have a HTPC, Cooler master and silverstone makes ATX sized HTPC cases.

Mats
Posts: 3044
Joined: Fri Dec 26, 2003 6:54 am
Location: Sweden

Post by Mats » Mon Sep 05, 2005 2:31 pm

knutinh wrote:Now we are getting somewhere. I did a mistake ordering that 512MB. I`ll see if I can change it for 2x256MB. According to the guide I am following, 512MB is enough. It makes sense that streming many GB of data through CPU and decoding it is mainly bandwidth dependant (as the dataset cant fit in ram anyways).

I wanted the lc 11 because it is slick :-) It also fits my hifi rack. It should fit a Zalman cnps 7000B CU though. I think this is one of the most recommended cpu coolers of all time?
Just buy 512 MB more RAM and you'll be fine.
The 7000 was the top contender 2 years ago. While it works perfectly for
cooler running CPU's, I'm not sure how it will work with a 630. The question is what you could use instead in that small case. :?
My craziest idea is a Thermaltake SI-120 with the fan between the fins and the base, possibly with a 120 mm hole in the bottom of the case. Still, I'm not sure about height of the SI-120....
Otherwise you could use a XP-120 instead since they seems to have the same height. Make sure you put the case so the bottom intake gets enough air.

Lycka till! :wink:

knutinh
Posts: 99
Joined: Fri Nov 14, 2003 5:53 am

Post by knutinh » Mon Sep 05, 2005 2:34 pm

what is the power output of a 2.8GHz p4 s478 compared to 3 GHz s775?

I am using the 2.8GHz with a zalmann at minimum speed with great results.

regards
K

Mats
Posts: 3044
Joined: Fri Dec 26, 2003 6:54 am
Location: Sweden

Post by Mats » Mon Sep 05, 2005 2:39 pm


teknerd
Posts: 378
Joined: Sat Nov 13, 2004 5:33 pm

Post by teknerd » Mon Sep 05, 2005 2:42 pm

in practice the northwood 2.8 has a tdp of 89 watts tops versus about 130 for a dual core prescott.
also the 3.2ghz prescott the person on htpc news was using has a tdp of 84 watts.
Last edited by teknerd on Mon Sep 05, 2005 2:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

JonV
Posts: 107
Joined: Mon Aug 15, 2005 8:05 pm

Post by JonV » Mon Sep 05, 2005 2:46 pm

knutinh wrote:So judging by your logic I should chose the hardware that produce positively worse results for my specific application because the binaries are unfair? You got to be kidding me!
That wasn't my logic at all - I was just objecting to you calling this "AMD performance problems" when it's clearly not an actual problem with AMD at all.

I'm not disputing the fact that the Pentium 4 may be better at this particular task than anything AMD has to offer, but remember that quiet/silent computing is very often about compromises - choosing the coolest-running component that is adequate for your needs instead of the absolute top notch performer, since the latter will often give a heat and noise increase way out of proportion to the small performance gain.

That said, I won't take this any further, since you very obviously aren't interested in discussing it.

Mats
Posts: 3044
Joined: Fri Dec 26, 2003 6:54 am
Location: Sweden

Post by Mats » Mon Sep 05, 2005 2:57 pm

teknerd wrote:in practice the northwood 2.8 has a tdp of 89 watts tops versus about 130 for a dual core prescott.
We're not talking about a dual core here.

SL6WJ 2.8 GHz: 69.7 Wdepending on model
SL7Z9 3.0 GHz: 84.0 W

The 630 supports SpeedStep which is a good thing!

knutinh
Posts: 99
Joined: Fri Nov 14, 2003 5:53 am

Post by knutinh » Mon Sep 05, 2005 10:08 pm

Pentium 4 Prescott Model 630 (3.0GHz) - Execute Disable Bit, EM64T (Extended Memory Technology 64), FSB800, 2MB Cache (Socket 775)
I guess this is it:
http://processorfinder.intel.com/script ... CorSpd=ALL
It has a thermal guideline of 84 Watt.

This means that my HTPC 3 GHz has slightly more output power than my office 2.8 GHz. In addition, speedstep (if implemented well) should give some headroom when < full load. From that line of thinking, I hope that the Zalman will do as good a job for the new as the old p4. Now, the problem is drawing out those 84W without heating the rest of the machine...
K.

vertigo
Posts: 647
Joined: Sun Apr 17, 2005 6:09 am
Location: UK

Post by vertigo » Mon Sep 05, 2005 11:07 pm

Now, the problem is drawing out those 84W without heating the rest of the machine...
... and doing it quietly, which is going to be the killer.

knutinh
Posts: 99
Joined: Fri Nov 14, 2003 5:53 am

Post by knutinh » Mon Sep 05, 2005 11:29 pm

Yes in deed. From what I have gathered, the built in PSU is reasonably quiet, while the case fans are quiet @ 5V. I will try that first. If the machine gets too hot, I will have to investigate alternative case fans.

It seems that one case fan is there primarily to suck out CPU heat. Perhaps some sort of "air guide" enclosing the cpu cooler and ducting all the air output directly to the close case fan?

with regards
Knut

Post Reply