Why is everyone bashing Zalman?

[Mr Evil]

Just because a FET is rated to operate up to a given temperature does not negate the advantages of cooling the component. Many studies have been done in recent years that show heatsinking and cooling a FET with forced air or convection cooling not only increases it's reliability but its ability to maintain voltages to within tighter tolerances of its given specification. This can be especially helpful for overclockers as keeping those VRMs cool can keep voltages more consistent and provide extra stability.

Of course higher temperature reduces lifespan, but:

• Higher temperature components last longer at a given temperature.
• Even with reduced airflow they still aren't going to be getting anywhere near their rated temperature.
• Overclockers are the sort of people who will put extra heatsinks on everything anyway.
• Even at higher than normal temperatures they will still last longer than most people need, especially overclockers who care little about lifespan, or reliability in general.

Some motherboards will not get much airflow over the voltage regulator section even with a normal heatsink because either the fins of the heatsink are aligned vertically or because there is a dense wall of capacitors in the way.

If you have evidence that reduced/absent CPU cooler airflow has a significant effect on motherboard reliability, then please share it, and you had better also share it with the manufacturers of tower heatsinks, water cooling systems, heatpipe cases and motherboard manufacturers (since they had better make motherboards compatible with increasingly popular cooling types).


P.S. Ghetto mods are cool!

[Rusty075]

Oddly enough, about a year and half or two years ago somebody made a post to the effect of, "This place is nothing but a bunch of Zalman fanboys!", probably after being told for the eighth time to swap his Tt Orb for a Zalman 7000.

Times change, and products cycle. And ultimately, that's a good thing, for us at least. The leapfrogging encourages all the players to boost their output. The fact that a relatively small and unknown player liek Scythe has made a product that bests the top-of-line products from the likes of ThermalRight and Zalman has shaken things up. Zalman was on top for a while (CNPS 6000), then ThermalRight (SLK948), then Zalman again (CNPS7000), then ThermalRight again (Si-120), and now the Scythe (Ninja). Right now there are engineering working on products that will outperform the Ninja...its only a matter of time.

[stupid]

Damn it, this place is just for the Scythe Ninja and Nexus 120mm B&W fanboys.

[Sizzle]

Damn it, this place is just for the Scythe Ninja and Nexus 120mm B&W fanboys.

Don't forget fAntec boys and Yate Loonies.....

As Rusty said, things go in cycles. We've seen the rise of Antec as a Quiet Computing company and Scythe certainly has been making a name for themselves. I think the general feeling is that Zalman has not made any advances lately in quiet computing (that are not insanely expensive like the TNN 500). My last Zalman HSF was the 7000 and I was not impressed with it. The VF700 series GPU coolers seem to be a hit here. As well as the good old Zalman NB coolers.

I think most of the disatisfaction is with the HSF's of late from Zalman.

[JazzJackRabbit]

Well, I'd say Zalman 9500 is a good cooler. The problem is that for average user it's too expensive compared with other alternatives from Scythe/Thermalright/Thermaltake that cool just as well but are $15 less expensive. For hardcore silencers 9500 is not good because the alternatives like Scythe Ninja are more sofisticated (and by sophisticated I don't mean exotic radial fins), they allow easy fan swap and are omnidirectional which provides greater flexibility and in the end potentially quieter system.

9500 is a good cooler... it's just that right now the competition is better.

I don't think anyone bashes Zalman here, they just don't recommend it anymore because there are other, better alternatives now. Let's not forget, that it was basically zalman who paved the road to silent computing with their CNPS ideology. IMO 7000 was an excellent heatsink at the time, at it's lowest setting it cooled well even the hottest chips while being much quiter than any stock cooler. It also didn't require any effort to install or mod. The only other competitor to 7000 was Thermalright with their SLK and SP-94/97 series, but if I remember correctly SP-94/97 came out after Zalman 7000.

If zalman were to come out with a tower or whatnot cooler that was just as good as competition and provided the same features, I'm sure a lot of people would buy it or at least give it some serious consideration. Unfortunately, I don't think zalman will do it, at least not in the foreseeable feature. It seems that zalman is still bent on using copper which is weight prohibitive and flower configuration (7000, 7700, 9500, VF-700) which limits innovative heatsink design ideas. Zalman 8000 is a step in the right direction, but it's only one heatsink, zalman could still revert back to their old copper flowers designs.

[stupid]

As a few people have stated, products in general comes in cycles. The competition is always trying to one up each other all the time. The Zalman 7000 that I have for my Athlon XP was considered big back in the day, and was an excellent HSF. Zalman still has a very good productline, but the competition has caught up and surpassed Zalman.

That is not to say that Zalman is inferior or quality has plunged. The fact of the matter is that people who spend money on a near silent solution has a wider range of products to choose from. Those who are willing to spend money to get something better than just stock wants to get the best bang for their buck.

In the US the Zalman 7700 and the Scythe Ninja are about the same price. The Zalman 7700 Cu is $8 - $10 more. the Ninja doesn't come with a fan, but it can cool an Athlon 64 X2 3800+ without any problems. Most informed people would opt for the Ninja over Zalman because it will be silent.

If you have an A64 X2 4800+ you'll definitely need active cooling of some sort. At this point if you want the Ninja you'll need a fan. There those who will choose the Nexus 120mm. But it costs about $23 shipped. Now comes the toss up between saving the $23 by going for the Zalman 7700, or go for the Ninja + Nexus combo if you think the lower noise is worth the extra $23.

[mathias]

If you have an A64 X2 4800+ you'll definitely need active cooling of some sort. At this point if you want the Ninja you'll need a fan. There those who will choose the Nexus 120mm. But it costs about $23 shipped. Now comes the toss up between saving the $23 by going for the Zalman 7700, or go for the Ninja + Nexus combo if you think the lower noise is worth the extra $23.

Why would anyone limit themselves to choosing between a nexus and a noisy zalman fan? Many other fans would be way better than what a 7700 comes with, including yate loons, globes, coolermasters and maybe even tricools.

[stupid]

Why would anyone limit themselves to choosing between a nexus and a noisy zalman fan? Many other fans would be way better than what a 7700 comes with, including yate loons, globes, coolermasters and maybe even tricools.

My statement is not meant to cover the entire universe of fans and heatsinks. It is merely to state that there are better HSF combos out there. I used Nexus as an example because it is the fan I am considering for my rig and based on some posts, Nexus seems to cherry pick their fans which typically means their fans as a whole are very quiet, and expensive as well.

That is not to say that Yate Loons are louder, but if Nexus truly does cherry pick their fans then it is likely that thier fans will have fewer manufacturing deviations that cause more noise.

[epiphane]

depravedone

I'm running 2 Zalmans (http://forums.silentpcreview.com/viewtopic.php?t=28987) & am happy w/ them.

When I got the first one it was the best cooler out there. When it came time for the 2nd puter to get upgraded I bought the identical model. However, I knew quieter choices had come available since my first purchase.

I stuck w/ what I knew cause;

1.I had good experience w/ it

2.It was only part of my silence toolbox & it's noise would be offset by the other things I was implementing.

3.I knew I'd be running it at low speed.

4.It cost 50% less then the current state of the art.

Bottom line...it's a good product, but not the best for everyone.

Cheers
Peter

[HermS]

I can see why Zalman have become less beloved than they used to be... as people have already pointed out, there are slightly better performing products out there and it is true to say that their products are pretty far from 'silent'.

For instance, my 7700 Cu only becomes quiet when run at ~5v 770rpm and at that kind of voltage the fan has difficulty spinning up sometimes. The heatsink itself is a fine piece of engineering, but it is badly let down by the fan. I also have a VF700 Cu and that little bugger is unbelievably noisy even at 7v. I find it quite staggering that the stock X1800 cooler (Yes the dustbuster type) and the stock 7800 GTX 512 cooler are both quieter and cooler than the aftermarket zalman offering.

I also think that Zalman haven't done themself any favours by getting endorsements from this fatal1ty boy, I find it a real turn off to buy any product with such a silly name plastered all over it. I remember when the Abit Fatal1ty motherboards were released I thought that the name fatal1ty was a cruel nickname given to the boards because they were known to expire prematurely etc.

All is not lost for Zalman in my opinion, they always have made superb quality products and that can never be a bad thing. They just need a nudge in the right direction is all.

[BigA]

A couple years ago, I purchased a large passive Zalman heatsink flower for my Socket A motherboard. As others have suggested, this was one of the better products available at the time and, since that time, the market has changed.

If Zalman (or any other vendor) wants my heatsink business, they will need to convince me of two things:
* That their product will effectively cool my computer
* That any fans included in their product will be quiet

I recently built a system with the Thermalright XP-90 because I expected it would work well, it was relatively inexpensive (around $30), it wasn't especially large, and it is designed to work with whatever fan I wanted to couple with it. I do not regret this purchase, as the solution has been simple, effective, flexible, and inexpensive.

From my perspective, the primary weakness of current Zalman heatsink products is that reviews suggest that the fans are noisier than they should be. This in itself would not be a critical weakness if the fans were easy to swap out for something quieter. While SPCR reviews discuss modding Zalman heatsinks, these modifications are enough work that I would prefer to avoid them by purchasing a competing product.

[Erssa]

I take it you've designed a number of motherboards to be stating that?
Don't you find it interesting that with so many people using tower heatsinks around here, the average failure rate is no higher than on any other computer-related message board on the internet?

I don't think you have to be a motherboard designer to understand that the CPU manufacturers cooling solutions

Well, you did explicitly state Most motherboards are designed with the assumption that a CPU cooler will provide this cooling, so I was wondering if you have anything to back it up with.

Old posts, but I just have to say that this kind of argumenting is really retarded...

Are people with no ACTUAL experience with a product advising for or against it?

Yes. Me. I do this based on the experience of many other people around SPCR that I trust to know what they're saying.

Especially when it was followed by the previous comment. I guess we could ask how many of them are motherboard or heatsink designers . I don't wanna go deeper into the subject, so chill out qviri .

More on the topic.I haven't seen any zalman bashing here, in fact I think zalman is one of the most highly respected manufacturers around here. Still it's a fact that Zalman fans are too "all around". They could go for quieter fans, if they didn't try to please the gamers.

I find the zalman 7000b-alcu, a pretty good product and I don't hesitate to recommend it. Here in Finland, Ninja without a fan, costs 50e, add a 20e nexus to it for a total of 70e. Thermalright xp-120 costs more then 60e without a fan. Zalman can be bought for as little as 26e. It's really a no contest. The price of the zalman makes it my nr.1 recommended fan (in Finland). If a friend asks me what cooler to buy, I will always say zalman, if it fits the motherboard. Most of my friends aren't silence fanatics and they will rather save 30-40e and take the cheaper zalman that will most likely not be the loudest component in their case.

Personally, even as a silence enthusiast, I couldn't justify 70e on air cooling cpu heatsink/fan combo. Not when I can have reserator 1+ for 235e that will be cooler and more silent then the ninja/nexus and also take care of my VGA (saves 30e, for no AC), while exhausting some of the air outside the case. Well I cannot justify the price of Reserator either, yet, I'll probably cave in eventually .

[TooNice]

I find it strange to hear the price difference between the Zalman and Ninja highlighted so often.

From the prices I've seen, the 9500 is about £5 more expensive than the Ninja. Throw in a Nexus, and the Ninja combo will cost about £7 more than the 9500. Even if I get a Yate Loon on Ebay, the cost advantage would slightly lean towards the 9500. Not enough to justify one over the other IMO, but neither was original £5 advantage a stock Ninja has over the 9500.

In other word, I'd say that both cooler costs about the same and the purchasing decision should primarily be the performance/noise/ease of installation of the coolers... Which I don't have experience with either.

To be honest, I was leaning toward the 9500 at the beginning. But after the influence of this forum, I think that I will go with a Ninja + Yate Loon combo. I just hope that it won't be much harder to mount compared to the 9500 (which I believe is relatively easier compared to the heavier Ninja - and you can find nice animated instructions on the Zalman website).

[qviri]

I don't wanna go deeper into the subject, so chill out qviri .

Thanks for the recommendation. The two weeks that have passed since I posted that have given me plenty of time to "chill out", especially with the temperatures outside. Thank you for your concern.

[nici]

I´ve had the CNPS6000AlCu(the one with a pci bracket to hold a 92mm fan), a 7000Alcu, a 7700Cu and a VF700. They all cooled well and were reasonably quiet, but the character of the zalman fans is horrible and becomes annoyingly audible if you have a very quiet system.

And they do cool the surrounding components better than tower-heatsinks wich causes shorter life-span of the components on the mobo, assuming theres no other source of airflow over the mobo. It´s another thing if its of any significance, it might reduce the life of the mobo from 7 to 5 years of 24/7 running for example, thats just a guesstimate but if that was the case i wouldnt call it significant because by the time the mobo dies it will be obsolete anyway..

I´ve also had the ZM80C-HP and ZM80D-HP gpu coolers and they both worked very well, though they were a major PITA to assemble even after i was familiar with it. But heatpipe coolers from other manufacturers aren´t any easier so

The reserator is great, i bought it new for 165€ at some point, and considering that aircooling with good components will cost almost as much and still have inferior cooling capacity and make more noise it was a no brainer.. Currently its cooling a 3700+, x800GTO@580/520 and nF4 chipset with excellent temps, and no noise to speak of.

Exhausting all that heat allows me to run only one exhaust fan at ~450rpm and keep a fanless PSU cool to the touch, wich in turn makes the system so quiet that a 2,5" drive sounds loud..

Currently running a Raptor in a homebrew drive-enclosure a-lá alleycat, search for homebrew and alleycat or something and youll probably find the thread I can say it works better than any commercial enclosure i´ve tried, both noise and temp wise

And to make this HDD thing more on topic, the one zalman product i consider waste of money is the HDD cooler. The rubber is too hard to decouple the drive and it doesnt increase the cooling area much either, enough to make a 1-2c difference..

[JazzJackRabbit]

I find it strange to hear the price difference between the Zalman and Ninja highlighted so often.

From the prices I've seen, the 9500 is about £5 more expensive than the Ninja. Throw in a Nexus, and the Ninja combo will cost about £7 more than the 9500. Even if I get a Yate Loon on Ebay, the cost advantage would slightly lean towards the 9500. Not enough to justify one over the other IMO, but neither was original £5 advantage a stock Ninja has over the 9500.

Maybe in the UK that's the case, in the US Ninja is significantly cheaper. The cheapest price on 9500 is $60 shipped from ewiz, Ninja from jab-tech would cost $36 (for the ninja itself) + $7 (YL12SL fan) +$7S&H for a total of $50. Considering YL is much better than 9500 fan and omnidirectional mounting, it's a no-brainer.

[TooNice]

Wow.. Significant price difference for the Ninja.

In the UK you can almost replace the $ with a £ sign for the Ninja.

It comes to about $55. The Zalman come to about $65.

[stupid]

One thing to consider when looking for a HSF is the direction of the air flow. The Ninja and other similar HS would blow air directly to the exhaust fan, this may cause "passive" airflow over the motherboard as air is being expelled out, but it does depend on overall airflow within the case.

A HSF similar to the Zalman 7700 series would blow air down onto the motherboard, thus it could "actively" cool a MB that uses a passive cooling system like in the Asus A8N SLI Premium.

As for the arguement between a Ninja + Fan & the Zalman 9500. It really comes down to bang for your buck, euro, quid, etc. depending on which part of the world you are in. Of course, most people would probably argue that the Ninja + Nexus fan is quieter than the Zalman 9500 regardless of price.

[ryboto]

Maybe in the UK that's the case, in the US Ninja is significantly cheaper. The cheapest price on 9500 is $60 shipped from ewiz, Ninja from jab-tech would cost $36 (for the ninja itself) + $7 (YL12SL fan) +$7S&H for a total of $50. Considering YL is much better than 9500 fan and omnidirectional mounting, it's a no-brainer.

Over the holiday, I saw the 9500 for as little as $50. The 9500 I own cools my passive northbridge and keeps it around 27C. With the stock cooler, it was almost 10C more than that. I trust zalman, and it's silent on its lowest setting, at least, i can't hear it from 1m away.

[JazzJackRabbit]

I'm curious where did you see it at that price?

[smifou]

silent computing can be fun but having a 5 foot tall tower heatsink in my computer doesnt make me feel comfortable cuz i do sometimes move my computer
if your computer is never gonna move, then go ninja, else dont

[Erssa]

Pretty funny how different the prices are. For example 9500 zalman can be bought for 49e here. While just the heatsink of ninja costs the same. Or plain heatsink of xp-120 is 62e...

[mathias]

Here a ninja can be gotten for 58 CDN with a yate loon, and zalman 9500 for 75 CDN.

If you're woried about torque, there's the heatlane zen.