Help with my P4 system - Nearly done!

SparkInTheDark · Post by **SparkInTheDark** » Sat Feb 04, 2006 2:39 pm

Hi,

This is my first attempt at getting involved with anything inside of my computer! Somehow I have never taken a case apart, until today.

I bought a computer pre-built from someone I knew when they upgraded, and am happy with the performance. I am unhappy with the noise levels though!

OK here goes; I am from the UK. I am currently living in a loft type studio room, so right now it is pretty cool in here, but in summer it gets slightly warmer than average (although this may be irrelevant as I could be moving before summer!).

My computer is in my bedroom, and about 4' from the foot of my bed (so about 10' from my head). I have most of my music collection, and some (ahem) "films" on there. The computer is mainly used for listening to music, watching downloaded stuff, video editing, internet, and a little gaming.

At the moment it is so loud I have to switch off if I am reading or watching TV, and definitely if I want to sleep.

My system:
P4 (Prescott) 3.2Ghz
MSI Motherboard - USB2, Gigabit LAN, 800 MHz FSB, SATA etc
1.5GB RAM (3 x 512MB RAM)
250GB SATA HDD
ATI X800 Pro graphics card
Creative Audigy Platinum sound card
Extra USB2 card
DVD+/- Rewriter
DVD ROM
Floppy
Coolermaster Centurion 2 case with an extra Akasa fan in back and a 500watt PSU

I have read the FAQ, and determined that I have most noise coming from the PSU (very loud), followed by the case fans (particularly front) and the processor. The graphics card isn't really audible over the rest! For now HD noise really isn't an issue.

Reading THIS thread it appears that the PSU I am using is much too powerful, and definitely on the loud side with its 3 fans!

I have taken some pictures to show you how things are laid out. I am intending to have a go at re-routing the cables, but am VERY wary of messing around in there, as this is my first time inside a case at all!

So, would I be right in thinking the best steps for me to take, in the following order are;

1) Replace PSU - how difficult is it to remove, and rewire power to all components?

2) Replace case fans - 2 x 80mm - Maybe cut out section for rear fan?

3) Alternative method of cooling CPU

Being honest, I have VERY little understanding of what I am looking at inside of here. I can identify most of the major components, but any advice would have to be on a level any idiot could understand!

Thanks in advance!

Pictures

jaganath · Post by **jaganath** » Sat Feb 04, 2006 2:49 pm

First of all, Welcome to SPCR!

OK, now to quiet your computer: if money is no object, replace your noisy PSU with a Seasonic S12-330 or S12-430. The S12-330 can be had for about Â£45.

The case fans can be slowed down (and thus made quieter) with one of these:

Zalman Fanmate 2

The processor is a bit trickier; I'm pretty sure your MSI motherboard doesn't allow undervolting, so not as many ways to reduce its heat output.

El Doug · Post by **El Doug** » Sat Feb 04, 2006 3:02 pm

i could be looking at the picture incorrectly, but it seems that theres quite a build up of dust on the CPU under the fan - removing that will bring down temps, and hopefully fan speeds

SparkInTheDark · Post by **SparkInTheDark** » Sat Feb 04, 2006 3:12 pm

Hi,

Yeah it did look quite dusty. I left it well alone for now, as I didn't know the best way to clean it, and also assumed I may be changing it out in the immediate future!

What is the best way to clean this?

Thanks

jaganath · Post by **jaganath** » Sat Feb 04, 2006 3:16 pm

What is the best way to clean this?

Ideally, with a can of compressed air, but not many people have these. You CAN use a normal vacuum cleaner, but be VERY careful, most vacuum cleaners generate a lot of static electricity which can fry your computer.

EDIT: SK, I can see his pictures fine (but they are quite big; are you on dial-up?).

Shadowknight · Post by **Shadowknight** » Sat Feb 04, 2006 3:16 pm

There aren't any pics on your post, dude.

SparkInTheDark · Post by **SparkInTheDark** » Sat Feb 04, 2006 3:23 pm

Ok, what do I need to watch out for? Just keep everything but the nozzle away?

Sorry, I resized the pics before I posted them, are they still too big?

Shadowknight · Post by **Shadowknight** » Sat Feb 04, 2006 3:31 pm

Dude, seriously, I don't see any pictures at all.

SparkInTheDark · Post by **SparkInTheDark** » Sat Feb 04, 2006 3:34 pm

Do you get anything if you click this?

http://www.jpghosting.com/showpic.php?i ... 22c42d.JPG

jaganath · Post by **jaganath** » Sat Feb 04, 2006 3:40 pm

Ok, what do I need to watch out for? Just keep everything but the nozzle away?

Pretty much; ideally the nozzle shouldn't touch anything either, but you might need to press it up against the CPU fan to get enough suction.

You must avoid all metal-on-metal contact between the vacuum's metal tubing and your case and/or components.

Really ideally you would take off the CPU fan before you did this but you must walk before you can run Grasshopper.

SparkInTheDark · Post by **SparkInTheDark** » Sat Feb 04, 2006 3:44 pm

jaganath wrote:
Ok, what do I need to watch out for? Just keep everything but the nozzle away?
Pretty much; ideally the nozzle shouldn't touch anything either, but you might need to press it up against the CPU fan to get enough suction.

You must avoid all metal-on-metal contact between the vacuum's metal tubing and your case and/or components.

Really ideally you would take off the CPU fan before you did this but you must walk before you can run Grasshopper.

lol, thanks mate!

It's ok as my hoover is all plastic on the nozzle extension, with no metal until back at the unit. So I should be safe just to stick it in?

jaganath · Post by **jaganath** » Sat Feb 04, 2006 4:00 pm

So I should be safe just to stick it in?

...said the vicar to the actress.

Yeah, give it a good hoover; a dust-free computer is a happy computer.

sun.moon · Post by **sun.moon** » Sat Feb 04, 2006 4:20 pm

jaganath wrote:The processor is a bit trickier; I'm pretty sure your MSI motherboard doesn't allow undervolting, so not as many ways to reduce its heat output.

jaganath is right here. Precotts are one of the hotter CPUs around. But your stock intel cooler is also very loud. You may want to think about replacing it with a recommended heatsink. You will notice the difference immediately.

-sun.moon

Shadowknight · Post by **Shadowknight** » Sat Feb 04, 2006 8:21 pm

SparkInTheDark wrote:Do you get anything if you click this?

http://www.jpghosting.com/showpic.php?i ... 22c42d.JPG

I still wasn't seeing anything, so I tried turning off my proxy software. It works now. I guess for some reason it interprets images from that site as advertising

Anyway, I'll take a look at your pics and see if I can offer any constructive criticism.

ETA: Okay, took a look. Of course, your new equipment will be based on budget, but...
1. Yeah, you should replace your PSU, preferably with a Seasonic.
2. Get a fan controller, maybe the one Zalman. This will give you immediate relief over case fans. If you plug in your CPU fan, you'll need to change the BIOS setting which will cause you to get a message saying their is a CPU fan problem.
3. Replace the heatsink; Get a Zalman, do a fanswap. Consider a Scythe Ninja as passive cooling > * Take a look at the updated CPU heatsink list on the main site, in case you can't get certain heatsinks in your home country.
4. New VGA cooler. Zalman ZM80-D with a Nexus or Panaflo fan, or one of the Arctic Silencer or fanned Zalman coolers.
5. Get Panaflos (L1As) to replace your current fans
6. Place hard drive on foam instead of directly attaching to the case.
7. Get some fan isolators; The "SPCR in a Nutshell.." thing in the newbie section has a link to a british shop which carries some.
8. Get some metal snips and cut out the fan grills on the case (front and back); they looks fairly restrictive and will inhibit airflow and cause more fan noise.

SignoDX · Post by **SignoDX** » Sun Feb 05, 2006 12:13 am

Hi, here are a few suggestions:
1. Change PSU for something quiet - Seasonic is the preffered PSU around here, and I think the 430W one would suit your needs well with lots of headroom for future expansion.
2. Change CPU heatsink, the stock Intel heatsink is not known for being particularly quiet. Notable heatsinks include the Thermalright XP120/90 heatsinks paired with a quiet fan, the Scythe Ninja + quiet fan, the Zalman 9500/7700/maybe 7000, and the Arctic Freezer. These are just off the top of my head, other people may have more/better suggestions.
3. Maybe a quieter exhaust fan, maybe a Nexus, slow Panaflo or Yate Loon, perhaps undervolted with a hardware or software (if motherboard supported) fan controller. You can also cut out the fan grills for better air flow.
4. If you notice video card noise now, you could try controlling the fan with a speed with a program called ATITool, or if that is not sufficent, replace the heatsink with a quieter heatsink

-Normally, this should be quiet enough to satisfy most people (:!: Note: average people, not the silence fanatics that many of us have become after visiting this website

)

5. If you've caught the silencing bug by now

, there are many other things such as hard drive suspension and case insulation that can be done for that slight bit more of quietness

Hope this helps
J

SparkInTheDark · Post by **SparkInTheDark** » Sun Feb 05, 2006 3:36 am

Ok, well I'm looking at the Seasonic PSU and it seems to be about Â£60. This is within budget, but is there any alternatives I should be looking at.

For now I think the CPU heatsink is a bit beyond me, and most of the noise seems to be from the PSU and front fan. So I'm going to have a go at changing the PSU, and replacing the case fans (mounting them with the fan isolators) and cutting out the grills. Once I have these out the way, I will see what the noise is like, and how confident I am feeling to attempt the CPu/Graphics card!

Can I do anything to stop more dust getting in, or will this just restrict air flow too much and cause problems?

Thanks for the help so far!

jaganath · Post by **jaganath** » Sun Feb 05, 2006 4:23 am

I'm looking at the Seasonic PSU and it seems to be about Â£60. This is within budget, but is there any alternatives I should be looking at.

The Seasonic S12's are pretty much the quietest fanned PSU's available. There are also fanless PSU's, but:

A ) these tend to be much more expensive

B ) they require very careful system implementation to prevent them from overheating.

Novices and site regulars alike have nothing but praise for the S12 series.

Can I do anything to stop more dust getting in, or will this just restrict air flow too much and cause problems?

You can put filters over the case intakes, but unless you get exactly the right kind of filter, yes, you will negatively affect your PC's cooling ability. Bluefront is the master of filters on SPCR:

Recommend A Dust Filter

n00btard · Post by **n00btard** » Sun Feb 05, 2006 10:30 am

1) Your cable management is sux0rz_
2) Rear fan grill looks restrictive, removing them might cut down on turbulence noise and your fans will breath easier too.
3) PRESCOTT? You know that 65nm Cedar Mills procs are out?
4) Switch out stock GPU/CPU cooling for Zalmans? that's all I can think of at this point.

SparkInTheDark · Post by **SparkInTheDark** » Sun Feb 05, 2006 10:37 am

n00btard wrote:1) Your cable management is sux0rz_

3) PRESCOTT? You know that 65nm Cedar Mills procs are out?

SparkInTheDark wrote:Being honest, I have VERY little understanding of what I am looking at inside of here. I can identify most of the major components, but any advice would have to be on a level any idiot could understand!

Thanks in advance!

SparkInTheDark wrote:I have taken some pictures to show you how things are laid out. I am intending to have a go at re-routing the cables, but am VERY wary of messing around in there, as this is my first time inside a case at all!

JimX · Post by **JimX** » Sun Feb 05, 2006 10:56 am

First of all, clean everything up, including PSU! Only then you can check for the noisiest components.
I think that after you cut out both grills, you should remove the intake fan completely, and seal all other intakes, including these rear semi-opened ones. Then put a not very restricting filter in the front fan space, and check often for dust. Undervolt the rear fan. Get the cables out of the way of airflow.
Only after all this you can decide what to change first.

You should also remove one stick of RAM for dual channel benefits.

n00btard · Post by **n00btard** » Sun Feb 05, 2006 6:05 pm

SparkInTheDark wrote:
n00btard wrote:1) Your cable management is sux0rz_

3) PRESCOTT? You know that 65nm Cedar Mills procs are out?

SparkInTheDark wrote:Being honest, I have VERY little understanding of what I am looking at inside of here. I can identify most of the major components, but any advice would have to be on a level any idiot could understand!

Thanks in advance!

SparkInTheDark wrote:I have taken some pictures to show you how things are laid out. I am intending to have a go at re-routing the cables, but am VERY wary of messing around in there, as this is my first time inside a case at all!

oopsies

I didn't bother reading the whole thing. You see, I just read the title, looked at the pics and skimmed through the replies and stuff...

so anyways: Prescotts are first-gen LGA775 processors, built on a 90nm process (process, being the width of the smallest circuit wire on the chip) and supports DDR2. Supporting DDR2 requires extra transistors, equating to more heat. Intel also switched the material of some part of the processor (I forgot which part of the proc it was) to di-electric material, making it even more hotter than it has any right to be. So vultures are flying over your PC right now, waiting for your heatsink to crap out.

Cedar Mills processors however, are based on a 65nm process, so the CPU die is physically smaller, and therefore creates less heat. They're still basically Prescotts built on a smaller process though. (Presler on the other hand, are two Cedar Mills cores on the same proc but physically seperate dies) Anandtech took Cedar Mills and Presler to 4.5GHz and 4.25GHz respectively on stock cooling, so that should give you an idea of how much cooler it runs than a Prescott.

JimX · Post by **JimX** » Sun Feb 05, 2006 6:26 pm

Tibors · Post by **Tibors** » Sun Feb 05, 2006 6:52 pm

n00btard wrote:so anyways: Prescotts are first-gen LGA775 processors, built on a 90nm process (process, being the width of the smallest circuit wire on the chip) and supports DDR2. Supporting DDR2 requires extra transistors, equating to more heat. Intel also switched the material of some part of the processor (I forgot which part of the proc it was) to di-electric material, making it even more hotter than it has any right to be. So vultures are flying over your PC right now, waiting for your heatsink to crap out.

Cedar Mills processors however, are based on a 65nm process, so the CPU die is physically smaller, and therefore creates less heat. They're still basically Prescotts built on a smaller process though. (Presler on the other hand, are two Cedar Mills cores on the same proc but physically seperate dies) Anandtech took Cedar Mills and Presler to 4.5GHz and 4.25GHz respectively on stock cooling, so that should give you an idea of how much cooler it runs than a Prescott.

This is all nice and funny, but if you look at the pictures above, then you can see this is not a LGA775 mobo, but a socket 478 one. Yes, the first Prescott chips where made for that socket. If you wonder how you can see that, then look at the heatsink: LGA775 heatsink; socket 478 heatsink.

So he won't be able to put a CPU with a Cedar Mill or Presler core in his system (without changing the mobo too). The only less hot alternative would be a Northwood, but these are hard to find and expensive nowadays.

n00btard · Post by **n00btard** » Sun Feb 05, 2006 7:05 pm

Tibors wrote:
n00btard wrote:so anyways: Prescotts are first-gen LGA775 processors, built on a 90nm process (process, being the width of the smallest circuit wire on the chip) and supports DDR2. Supporting DDR2 requires extra transistors, equating to more heat. Intel also switched the material of some part of the processor (I forgot which part of the proc it was) to di-electric material, making it even more hotter than it has any right to be. So vultures are flying over your PC right now, waiting for your heatsink to crap out.

Cedar Mills processors however, are based on a 65nm process, so the CPU die is physically smaller, and therefore creates less heat. They're still basically Prescotts built on a smaller process though. (Presler on the other hand, are two Cedar Mills cores on the same proc but physically seperate dies) Anandtech took Cedar Mills and Presler to 4.5GHz and 4.25GHz respectively on stock cooling, so that should give you an idea of how much cooler it runs than a Prescott.
This is all nice and funny, but if you look at the pictures above, then you can see this is not a LGA775 mobo, but a socket 478 one. Yes, the first Prescott chips where made for that socket. If you wonder how you can see that, then look at the heatsink: LGA775 heatsink; socket 478 heatsink.

So he won't be able to put a CPU with a Cedar Mill or Presler core in his system (without changing the mobo too). The only less hot alternative would be a Northwood, but these are hard to find and expensive nowadays.

ooooooooohhhhhhhh yyyyyeeeeeeaaaaaaaahhhhhhhh

Prescotts DID come out for S478! My bad.

oops... not only did I fail to read the original post's article, I also didn't even bother scrutinizing the pictures... such is the life of a 15 year old.

SparkInTheDark · Post by **SparkInTheDark** » Mon Feb 06, 2006 10:58 am

Lol, thanks for explaining what that was all about!

Ok, I have read the suggestions so far, and been looking around some Uk sites. It seems the site which has the majority of what I need is Overclockers UK I have included links with prices just to make sure everything is right.

I am definitely intending to:

1) Replace PSU with Seasonic 430W PSU

2) Cut out fan grills, seal front of case and add a filter to the front hole.

I am still not sure whether it is better to remove the front fan. Then replace just the rear fan with something quieter undervolted with a zalman fanmate, or whether it would be better to replace both with quieter fans from two fanmates? (Also are there significant improvements in the fanmate 2 over 1, as I can pick up 3 of the fanmate 1s for quite a bit less than the price of 2 of the fanmate 2s)

I am very seriously considering the option of replacing the stock CPU heatsink/fan as, after reading the posts, it seems this will be an issue. From Overclockers I have a couple of options which are within my budget. However I have never attempted anything like this before, and am quite wary. What are peoples opinions on this? I think I'm going to give it a shot.

These have all been recommended earlier in the post:

Thermal right XP/SI 120, Zalman CNPS7700-ALCU. Arctic Cooling Freezer 4

After reading the recommended heatsinks post, I am leaning towards the Arctic Cooling freezer 4, as this is closer to what I would like to spend, and the reviews seem to rate it's performance close enough to the others to keep me happy.

Sorry for the massive posts, but I'm just trying to find my feet with this! So here are two final questions!

a) IF I decided to keep both front and back case fans (either the current ones or replaced) this will mean there are 3 fans to control, would I be better buying 3 fanmates, or some kind of fan controller that goes in a front bay and will control more than one fan at once?

b) Is it worth replacing my current fans with any from this list while I am ordering from here anyway, or should I just try my current fans with a lower voltage?

I really appreciate all the help given so far, thanks

jaganath · Post by **jaganath** » Mon Feb 06, 2006 1:04 pm

(Also are there significant improvements in the fanmate 2 over 1, as I can pick up 3 of the fanmate 1s for quite a bit less than the price of 2 of the fanmate 2s)

Fanmate 2 are functionally identical to Fanmate 1. Fanmate 2 has longer cables, that's about it.

I seem to recall the SPCR review of the AC Freezer 4 was very positive. If it's the cheapest as well, so much the better!

would I be better buying 3 fanmates, or some kind of fan controller that goes in a front bay and will control more than one fan at once?

The latter. Here is a good option:

Sunbeam Rheobus

b) Is it worth replacing my current fans with any from this list while I am ordering from here anyway, or should I just try my current fans with a lower voltage?

Bleck. I wouldn't touch any of those Overclockers fans with a bargepole.

SparkInTheDark · Post by **SparkInTheDark** » Mon Feb 06, 2006 1:31 pm

Hi,

Yeah I did wonder about those fans, that's why I ask so many questions!

I've found an option for this fan controller which looks ok to me (?) from overclockers again, as it means I save on postage (near the top end of what I'm hoping to spend now! Comes to about Â£95 delivered for the PSU, CPU HS and fan control)
Do I need to order any thermal compound or similar, or is that usually provided with the HS?

So I should be set with what I've ordered I think.

No doubt I'll be asking even more questions once this stuff arrives- thanks again for the patient help!

jaganath · Post by **jaganath** » Mon Feb 06, 2006 2:50 pm

I've found an option for this fan controller which looks ok

I'm a bit less keen; one problem with some multiple fan controllers is that they have a very narrow voltage range (ie 8-12V or similar) which may or may not allow you to get your fans suitably quiet, or sometimes they only have set voltage steps (ie 12v/7v/5v). That's why I prefer the Sunbeam; it allows you to completely turn off the fans if you want, and allows voltages all the way from zero to 12v. It's about Â£15 delivered.

If you want to save money elsewhere, www.scan.co.uk have the Seasonic S12-330 for under Â£45 delivered:

S12-330

It should still easily be enough to power your system.

Do I need to order any thermal compound or similar, or is that usually provided with the HS?

Usually you will get a small sachet of HS compound provided. If it doesn't come with any it's cheaply available from any computer shop.

thanks again for the patient help!

No problem.

SparkInTheDark · Post by **SparkInTheDark** » Mon Feb 06, 2006 11:40 pm

Ah ok! Glad I asked!

Yeah maybe the 330w PSU would be better for my needs, as I am not really planning on expanding much. Except for maybe adding another HDD at some point. If you think this will power my system no problems, then maybe I'll go for that and get the sunbeam from the site you recommended.

jaganath · Post by **jaganath** » Tue Feb 07, 2006 3:14 am

If you think this will power my system no problems

Well, let's try and guesstimate a maximum power draw for your system:

P4 (Prescott) 3.2Ghz - 82 watts (TDP or Thermal Design Power; max dissipation may be higher but thermal clock-throttling prevents burn-out)
MSI Motherboard - USB2, Gigabit LAN, 800 MHz FSB, SATA etc - 10W?
1.5GB RAM (3 x 512MB RAM) - 5 watts
250GB SATA HDD 10-12 watts; possibly more at spin-up
ATI X800 Pro graphics card - 50 watts? no idea really
Creative Audigy Platinum sound card - 10 watts max, probably much less
Extra USB2 card - 2.5W?
DVD+/- Rewriter -can use up to 20W when burning; otherwise zero
DVD ROM - 5-10W
Floppy - negligible
3 case fans- 2 watts each (max)- 6 watts

Total power draw with everything running at max: 210 watts, still comfortably within the S12-330's range (and also should be near it's maximum efficiency). Add another HDD, that's another 10-12 watts, makes 222 watts.

Of course for day-to-day computing you won't even get close to this level of power usage.