advice on low-power, low-budget music server hardware

Jay_S · Post by **Jay_S** » Fri Mar 10, 2006 10:59 am

Hi,

This is my first post on SPCR, but I've been reading the articles & browsing the forums for quite some time. This is going to be a long post, beware!

I want to build a very low power machine for 24/7 operation. It will be used mainly to run the slimserver software required by the slim devices squeezebox. I've looked into the linkstations and other NAS devices, and may go that route if I can muster the courage to attempt hacking them. The 250GB linkstation with gig-ethernet & PPC processor can be had for around $250.

But, because I have some spare parts laying around (PSU, ram, case), I could possibly build a full server for the same price. I initially looked into an undervolted/underclocked sempron - cost would start around $120 for the mobo/cpu set, plus drive(s). Based on other forums posts, this could be a very low power consumption setup with the right motherboard (Tforce 6100-754 has adjustable Vcore?). I'm sure this would provide more than adequate performace.

But upon re-reading the recommened CPU list, the 500-750 MHz coppermine P3's caught my attnetion (dissipating 13-19W!). This is about the same as the higher clocked VIA mini-ITX offerings. Where a mini-ITX mobo/cpu & case would start somewhere around $300, I found loads of used 550-667 MHz P3 systems on Ebay. These are almost all used corporate Dell and Compaq systems, range in price from $40-80, and usually include cd-rom, 128-256MB Ram, and a 10 gig HD. So, with a hard drive upgrade I'm done.

Question: given typical dell PSU unreliability, would any of you trust these systems with your entire music collection for 24/7 operation?

Another option would be to just use one of these $50 systems (or even less - an old P2 or celeron 400) to run slimserver, and them get a NAS drive for the data...

So, with these 3 options - new sempron, mini-ITX, or used P3 - which would you use?

I am concerned about the used P3's not being able to utilize hard drives over the 137.4 GB limit.

Thanks!
Jay

Chris Chan · Post by **Chris Chan** » Fri Mar 10, 2006 1:15 pm

I'd take the used p3, really. I do object to one part of your post, though.

typical dell PSU unreliability

I have a P4 Dell, 2y/o, and it has a very reliable PSU. Also, I'm responsible for a Dimension 4100 (2001), Dimension XPS M200a (1997), and Optiplex GX1p (1999) and they all have never needed PSU upgrade or replacement.

matt_garman · Post by **matt_garman** » Fri Mar 10, 2006 2:55 pm

The Jay wrote:So, with these 3 options - new sempron, mini-ITX, or used P3 - which would you use?

I'm personally a bit hesitant to buy used computer parts off ebay. You never know how the stuff was used: maybe somebody overclocked the heck out of their CPU and played games nonstop---that CPU probably has a lower lifespan that most new stuff you can buy.

I'm also leery about grossly underclocking/undervolting new, fast hardware. No reason other than I like to run things within the parameters in which they were designed and manufactured. (Just a personal sentiment, by the way, there's an abundance of evidence on this site to support the notion that undervolting is not harmful.)

So that leaves mini-ITX. This, or a Socket A motherboard with the AMD Geode processor, would be my first pick. You can buy yourself a Via Epia 500 MHz board for around $100US. This is a totally passive board. Now spend the real money on a solid power supply and a bunch of hard drives. If you can run Linux, you can implement software RAID (either 1 or 5) for some redudancy/data security.

Hope that helps!
Matt

Jay_S · Post by **Jay_S** » Fri Mar 10, 2006 3:06 pm

matt_garman wrote:or a Socket A motherboard with the AMD Geode processor

Yes - the Geode. Directron has this for $89.99. Which includes HSF and fan. Does anyone here know anything about Vcore adjustability on the Biostar M7VIG 400 ? The Geode I believe needs on 1.1V. I may have to email Biostar for the answer. There was another poster in these forums who's motherboard was feeding his geode 1.5V or something and s/he was having a hard time keeping it cool passively.

Thanks again,
Jay

JJ · Post by JJ » Fri Mar 10, 2006 6:18 pm

Hi Jay, another Squeezebox user here.

Where does the server need to reside in your home?

There's a need for making a desktop computer silent because it's almost always in the same room as the user. There's a need to make an HTPC silent for the same reason and the fact that you're likely to be listening to audio or a movie soundtrack at the same time.

But a music server running SlimServer is different. It can be placed in the basement, in a laundry room, possibly in a closet, or even out in the garage. If any of those locations are feasible then noise probably isn't an issue. At which point, other factors are more important - speed, cost, operating system compatiblity.

Jay_S · Post by **Jay_S** » Fri Mar 10, 2006 8:47 pm

JJ - you're exactly correct. I can place the sever in the basement (most likely) or a closet in the office as long as it's within range of my wireless router. So yes - noise in my case (no pun...) is not my biggest problem. Power consumption and cost are probably my primary concerns right now.

I'm following an ebay buy it now "auction" for a used dell optiplex GX110 with 256mb ram, 667 P3 socket 370, cdrw and 10 gig hd. For $40. But I do not know what the HD size limits will be with the GX110 (should I be concerned about this?). I've read that it's OS limited (example: XP does not support 48-bit addressing without service pack 1 or higher). I've also read that it's bios limited. And I've read that many linux distributions (I am by no means even slightly knowledgeable about linux) ignore BIOS limitations on HD space. But I can't find any info on the GX110, other than it originally came with very small drives (10 gb and smaller).

There's also this Via C3 contraption for $102. Comes with the 800mhz C3, takes DDR and has 2 pata and 2 sata controllers. Add ram, hard drives and a wireless adapter. Not too shabby. Reviewed here. And it received pretty positive review on newegg.

Jay

JJ · Post by JJ » Fri Mar 10, 2006 9:48 pm

The Jay wrote:There's also this Via C3 contraption for $102. Comes with the 800mhz C3, takes DDR and has 2 pata and 2 sata controllers. Add ram, hard drives and a wireless adapter. Not too shabby. Reviewed here. And it received pretty positive review on newegg.

Nice find. The VIA barebones sounds ideal. A case, power supply, motherboard with onboard Ethernet and video, CPU, CD-ROM drive, and floppy drive, for $103? That's crazy. It won't be the fastest server in the world, but it'll run rings around any of the NASs running SlimServer. From the review, it sounds as if it's quiet enough you may not even want to put it in the closet.

Add $40 for RAM, and maybe a wireless card. If you can get an Ethernet wire to the server, all the better for cost, power consumption, and for the quality of your SB streaming. Figure the hard drive costs will be constant, no matter if you buy a system for $20 or for $2000.

jb_ · Post by **jb_** » Sat Mar 11, 2006 12:21 am

I'd go with the P3 option, which is a very economic option. A P3 is perfectly fine for serving, and would be able to do anything a Sempron could do, and it would whip the VIA's butt too. But be sure those machines have Coppermine P3s, not the vastly-inferior Katmai. And I'd make sure any machine (dell or otherwise) used a standard PSU -- I know many Dells use proprietary ones.

My current server is a 466mhz Celeron (Mendocino) overclocked to 584mhz -- the highest the board will go. The board has an i440LX chipset, and the hard disk is a 200gb Samsung P120 -- no capacity limit issues attributable to the board -- only Windows. 512mb SDRAM and Windows 2000. It's plenty fast for serving files, a website with associated MySQL database, and a Subversion repository. I just upgraded it from a Pentium II (Deschutes), but not because it was too slow, only because I happened to have faster hardware lying around and the board was limited to 256mb RAM. (I assume a 7x83=584mhz Mendocino would be much faster than a 5x66=333mhz Deschutes, despite the wildly different cache arrangements?). The board used with the PII was an i440EX chipset board.

My server is almost totally silent and resides in an Antec Minuet, with all the fans modded down to 4-7 volts.

Don't forget this stuff was top-of-the-range in its day; there's no reason why it wouldn't be adequate for light duties now.

BTW, I wouldn't be worried about the 128 GiB (137 decimal gigabyte) limit. Both motherboards mentioned above had no problems with the 200gb drive, and the P3 boxes you're looking at would certainly have a newer chipset and BIOS capabilities.

qviri · Post by **qviri** » Sat Mar 11, 2006 7:57 am

That ASUS VIA barebone looks like it has a PSU mounted internally like Bluefront did here not long ago. Interesting concept.

... Of course, the only place that sells this in Canada wants $172 for it

Jay_S · Post by **Jay_S** » Sat Mar 11, 2006 7:55 pm

Ok,

So I bid on the used dell optiplex. I was wrong about 2 things though. First, it's a 733 mhz not a 667. But I believe that at this speed either could only have been coppermines (looks like the katmai topped out at 600 mhz.) And second, apparently it's not a buy-it-now deal. Or it was before and now it's not. So I have to wait for the auction to end in a few days.

I was able to get the buyer to physically check some stuff out though, and the cpu has only a large heatsink on it. It has the 90-degree duct with the rear case fan arangement I've seen in many other dells. And the case fan looks like it's the same size as the psu fan, which I'm guessing is the standard 80mm. Should be easy enough to swap for something quieter if it's a howler.

With crossed fingers,
Jay

jfeldt · Post by **jfeldt** » Sat Mar 11, 2006 9:16 pm

My current choice for a stable low-power consumption music server is a coppermine 600eb, run at 100 MHz FSB (instead of 133 MHz), which results in even cooler operation. The heatsink is a massive passive one. I can also then use my favorite chipset, the 440BX at a supported clock speed. I plan on only using NFS, but I think I remember hearing that the squeezeserver is PERL based. PERL can be slow, but I think even 450 MHz would be fast enough for it.

I have the little version of the GX110, and it is way too loud for my tastes. I have never seen another power supply with a similar size, so I am selling it after only a half-hour or so of use.

I think the decision to go with a coppermine is a good one, since they are cheap and you could even use ECC RAM with the right chipset if you were so inclined.

Jason

Jay_S · Post by **Jay_S** » Sat Mar 11, 2006 9:37 pm

The mid tower GX110's appear to use 2 (80mm or so) fans - 1 in the psu and 1 rear case fan. I hope they are either quiet enough for closet/basement operation, or are easily replaceable.

Looking at the dell service manual, that CPU heat sink looks mighty wimpy. That might need some work. Were you able to monitor any temps with your GX110? I've read that dells rarely have diodes or other thermal sensors.

Jay

jfeldt · Post by **jfeldt** » Sat Mar 11, 2006 10:17 pm

Hmm, that fan assembly looks much different than the inside of my GX110. Keep in mind, that I have the little bitty version, like the one shown here: http://www.pcliquidations.com/item.asp?id=1460
only mine is a socket 370, not a slot 1. The power supply is beneath the laptop-style CD-ROM. I can check for temperatures sometime if I can remember (it's put away), but they would be much different for this little case than for your mid-tower. In mine, I didn't see a way to use 80 mm fans easily. The PS has something like a 60mm, and the socket 370 probably has a 40 mm.

However, I also have a dell Dimension XPS 600 mid-tower that I was able to quiet down very easily. I just used a panaflo at 5V where the CPU duct exits out of the computer. The CPU heatsink is passive, the PS is reasonably quiet, and I have a barracuda IV in it.

Jason

Jay_S · Post by **Jay_S** » Sun Mar 12, 2006 6:48 am

jfeldt wrote:that fan assembly looks much different than the inside of my GX110

Yes - the one I'm bidding on should look like this. Should be plenty of of room for drives - I'm thinking about 2 drives in the unused 5.25" bays, with the bay covers removed or replaced a la Mike Chin's beautiful work here. After sealing off every other intake/hole, the psu and case fans should be enough to pull cool air in across the drives.

I just missed out on a Seagate 200 gb drive sale at best buy - $89 each (now back to $149). Oh well. BTW, I've had pretty good luck with Seagate sales at best buy. They're worth checking periodically. Right now they have a 320 gb SATA/150 drive on sale for $119.

Jay

Chris Chan · Post by **Chris Chan** » Sun Mar 12, 2006 9:00 am

About the GX110: If it's anything like the GXa 233m i just scrapped because of a dead HDD controller, then there's a temp controlled 8cm in the back and a temp controlled 8cm in the PSU. Pretty quiet.

Jay_S · Post by **Jay_S** » Mon Mar 13, 2006 8:59 am

Ok,

The more I learn about this optiplex, the more I'm thinking it's a great deal. The 48 bit LBA issue was resolved with bios revision 8, so there's no drive limits in hardware anymore. And it's coming with 256 mb of ram already, which is nice - I hadn't realized sdram has gotten so expensive. A single 256 stick of pc100 would actually cost the same or more than the whole computer!

I'm focusing my research on storage now. I think a second physical backup drive, disconnected except for making backups makes more sense than a RAID array in my case. Despite the success stories some have with Dell hardware, there are just as many horror stories. My mother's dell P3 has been running like a champ for the last 4-5 years. Chris Chan (2x previous poster) has had good (PSU) and bad (HDD controller) experiences. Others on these and other forums have reported dell PSU failures. So I can't say I'm confortable with all my data stored on live drives (raid or not) without a physical backup. Instead, I'm thinking about buying 2 huge drives - 1 for the live pc and 1 to install in a usb enclosure for periodic backups. I understand that the dell only has usb 1.0 - but backup speed isn't that important to me as my data will not change that much that often.

My digital camera was stolen last year. If I can borrow one, I'll post some pics and a writeup of the project in the gallery once it's up and running.

Thanks again for everyone's input,
Jay

Jay_S · Post by **Jay_S** » Sun Apr 30, 2006 8:56 am

Thanks again for all the advice everyone, I just posted a writeup and pictures in the general gallery here.

Jay

advice on low-power, low-budget music server hardware

advice on low-power, low-budget music server hardware

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Re: advice on low-power, low-budget music server hardware

pics, finally