Intel 930 vs. AMD 3800?

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Dutch2
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Intel 930 vs. AMD 3800?

Post by Dutch2 » Fri Mar 24, 2006 1:46 pm

I'm pretty much an "Intel man". I've built quite a few computers, mostly Intel, some AMD, and over time I have had just much more luck with the Intel ones. But, as they say, times change, and since I'm concerned about heat output, I am looking at AMD.

I was thinking about an Intel Pentium D 930 Presler 800MHz FSB 2 x 2MB L2 Cache LGA 775 Dual Core Processor for $329 (3/24/06) at NewEgg. (Price will drop to $209 April 23rd, 940 will be around $300 then)

Similar in price, an AMD Athlon 64 X2 3800+ Manchester 1GHz HT 2 x 512KB L2 Cache Socket 939 Dual Core Processor for $295 also at NewEgg. (Price drops in the future?)

My most important requirement is stability.

For the Intel part I found a motherboard I like: ASUS P5WD2-E Premium for $218.

It is passivly cooled, has plenty of SATA ports, and SATA RAID. All the on board LAN and sound all cover what I am looking for.

I guess my questions are:

1. Is an Athlon 64 X2 3800+ "as fast" or "faster" than an Pentium D 930?

2. What is a good motherboard that will support the AMD processor?

Help me convert to AMD :)

D2.
Last edited by Dutch2 on Fri Mar 24, 2006 2:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

JimX
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Post by JimX » Fri Mar 24, 2006 2:07 pm

1. Yes!

2. Another Asus!

mikellpp
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Post by mikellpp » Fri Mar 24, 2006 2:19 pm

See this review of the 930 vs the AMD:

http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/cpu/di ... 0-930.html

Here's the conclusion of the extensive review:

"So, Intel fans will have to wait until September, when the new dual-core processors based on the absolutely new Core (Conroe) architecture will arrive. According to the preliminary performance results, they will be at least capable of competing with Athlon 64 X2. And in the meanwhile, Intel processors can not really win the market, for quite a few objective reasons we have just discussed."

I run the Amd X2 dual-core.

Dutch2
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Post by Dutch2 » Fri Mar 24, 2006 2:48 pm

Thanks mikellpp for the link to the review, it's what I have been looking for.

"Internet Content Creation" and "Office Productivity" are probably the two most important figures for me, and it's kind of a trade-off.

However, 11 vs. 40 watts in idle mode and 65 vs. 103 under full load is a big difference!

Also, idle 40-11=29W x 365days x 24 hours = 256 KWh x $0.07 = $17/yr :)

Any comments on this motherboard?
ASUS A8N-SLI Premium Socket 939 NVIDIA nForce4 SLI ATX AMD Motherboard

D2.

MikeC
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Post by MikeC » Fri Mar 24, 2006 2:53 pm

Dutch2 -- It's a good board. Same one I used in the Thai PC.

Dutch2
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Post by Dutch2 » Fri Mar 24, 2006 3:04 pm

MikeC, thanks for the link to your Thai PC project.

I have the same case and power supply (P150) and I'll create another post with a list of the parts I'm planning to use to get some over-all input.

Thanks for all the AMD information everybody!

D2.

stupid
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Post by stupid » Fri Mar 24, 2006 3:12 pm

Dutch2 wrote:
Also, idle 40-11=29W x 365days x 24 hours = 256 KWh x $0.07 = $17/yr :)
$0.07 per KWh?

My electric bill (Con Edison) says $0.21 per KWh!!!

Dutch2
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Post by Dutch2 » Fri Mar 24, 2006 3:16 pm

Duke Power, $0.0745 per KWh. :)

mikellpp
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Post by mikellpp » Fri Mar 24, 2006 4:46 pm

I currently run my AMD X2 3800 in a MSI Neo4 Ultra m/b and previously ran it in a DFI NF4 Ultra-d. In both m/b it was any easy o/c to 2.4 Ghz at default vcore. Power consumption and cpu temps are very low. compared to my older cpus.

Check out these extensive power consumption graphs of AMD vs Intel cpus at Lost Circuits:

http://www.lostcircuits.com/cpu/amd_x2-3800+/10.shtml

Energy costs here(about 20 miles from the Niagara Falls power plant) are high. My billing lists two separate fees:
9 cents/kwh for electricity delivery plus 6.6 cents/kwh for electricity.

Yikes! Definitely cheaper to run an AMD cpu.

Dutch2
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Post by Dutch2 » Fri Mar 24, 2006 5:07 pm

mikellpp, did you ever had any instability issues with the board? I "feel the need for speed" but a even greater need for reliability.

I'm planning to use two SpinPoint 250Gb drives in RAID0 for the main (boot) drive. Did you ever use the RAID functions of the board?

By the way, an AMD 3800 combined with my apparently low electricity rate will leave me with more money for other toys :)

Thanks,

D2.

mikellpp
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Post by mikellpp » Fri Mar 24, 2006 5:30 pm

With proper cooling, a decent psu and good memory you won't have any instability issues at stock speeds. If you o/c and stress the cpu at 100% load the chances increase for instability.

But with dual core you will need threaded applications which utilize both cores simultaneously to approach 100% load. I like to watch both cores go to 99% load when i am compiling source code or encoding videos.

I don't use RAID but i run pvr apps and tend to load down the pc with TV-tuner cards and multiple large capacity hard drives and a scsi contoller card for my system drive.

Thats the reason i have the MSI Neo 4. It has 4 pci slots (which i need) and dual GB built in NIC's which i use to transfer videos on my LAN.

Dutch2
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Post by Dutch2 » Fri Mar 24, 2006 6:02 pm

I don't plan to overclock. You bring up an interesting thing though.. "good memory".

I'm thinking about an OCZ 2 x 1GB kit it's about $150 after rebate.

Does Cas Latency have a big impact on overall system speed with an AMD processor? The Intel 930 motherboard used DDR2-800 vs. DDR-400 for this one, makes me wonder.

D2.

jaganath
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Post by jaganath » Fri Mar 24, 2006 6:28 pm

Does Cas Latency have a big impact on overall system speed with an AMD processor? The Intel 930 motherboard used DDR2-800 vs. DDR-400 for this one, makes me wonder.
Cas latency is much less of an issue for current-generation AMD chips compared to Intel, because of the integrated memory controller.

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Post by kenji » Fri Mar 24, 2006 7:29 pm

Actually it's a little more the other way around. Due to AMD's integrated memory controller, it is less dependant on bandwidth and more hungry for latency. Cas latency is much more important in an AMD64 system (with HT) than that of an Intel system which is bandwidth hungry (for the moment)

The extra bandwidth of DDR2 has shown very little increase in performance over DDR in initial tests. However as AMD refines the AM2 platform (with POSSIBLE support for DDR3), they may take full advantage of the bandwidth difference.

What you should be most concerned about is which ram performs the best at the lowest frequency (and therefore lower power/heat)

My money right now would be on the 2 GB G.Skill kit at newegg, it's VERY highly regarded and the price is RIGHT.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.a ... 6820231021
IMO it's currently the best "bang for the buck" in ram right now. I've done a lot of shopping around and research (and I mean a LOT)

As for the motherboard I would recommend something with passive cooling (although my money is on THIS board right now.. http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.a ... 6813138272
which doesn't have passive cooling, but hey, this IS SPCR, if the HSF on the mobo sucks, I'll fix it :wink:

As for the hard drives, I personally wouldn't sacrifice "reliability/stability" for RAID0 anymore. It has been proven for most applications, the benefit isn't worth the added risk of data loss. I would rather use a good software raid (like linux uses) and have a raid 5 setup with 3 drives (2 for speed and 1 for redundancy)
However my final decision on this has been to use a Raptor 150, as it's an excellent blend of speed and quiet at idle

Hope this all helps.

Good luck building!

I know I need it :?
Last edited by kenji on Fri Mar 24, 2006 7:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

kenji
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Post by kenji » Fri Mar 24, 2006 7:39 pm

oh, not to say that latency isn't just as important on intel chips, just that bandwidth is less important on AMD chips

The G.Skill ram I linked will allow you to run the HT at a higher rate (closing in on 300 mhz with a 1:1 cpu:ram ratio)

The higher you can take the ram with good timings and 1T (with no dividing), generally the better performance. Of course this is a truly big generalization, as it's very dependant on very individual results. To read more about ram, latency, and bandwidth check out the memory forum at HARDOCP forums:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.a ... 6813138272
you'll see a lot of references to the ram I linked at newegg. And there are some real experts that post there. Guys who test ram all day long. Check it out.

kenji
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Post by kenji » Fri Mar 24, 2006 7:45 pm

It should also be noted that DDR2 is currently at higher latency, therefore restricting performance. With Cas 3 on the horizon for DDR2 and a big push by AMD for better performance with AM2, the ram companies should be really compelled to step it up with DDR2 performance. At this point, we will see if DDR2 will withstand the test of time, or if DDR3 or Rambus will prevail as the "true" next gen ram

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Post by Dutch2 » Sat Mar 25, 2006 6:04 am

Thanks for all the info everybody! I'm doing a lot of reading :)

I've been looking at RAM at NewEgg, and found this G.SKILL 2GB CAS 2-3-2-5 for $146 which seems a good price.

How does it compare with the RAM kenji recommended with a CAS 3-4-4-8 for $157?

I know the first is DDR500 and the 2nd is DDR400... will the first have better performance when run at DDR400 speeds?

D2.

kenji
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Post by kenji » Sat Mar 25, 2006 1:10 pm

If you read the memory forums at hardocp I linked, you'll see that people have had REALLY great luck with the ram I suggested. The higher cas latency is because it's meant to be run at higher speeds. You can easily achieve much lower latency at the expense of memory bandwidth. I'm not exactly a true expert on the matter, so don't take my word as gold.

The reason that ram that is rated for higher clock speeds is good (generally) is because when you are running something like an Athlon64 with HT, the closer the memory bandwidth gets to running at the same speed as the processor bandwidth (pre multipliers, pure FSB speed), generally the better. So if you can get your memory to run at say, 300 MHZ, and you are using the same processor FSB, then you are using a 1:1 ratio (no divider for the ram)

Of course while this is theoretically better, there are many other factors.

I invite anyone who hasn't already to read this memory purchasing guide, it's very informative. After reading, ignore the pg.1 recommendations (they are outdated) instead click on -->last page and work your way backwards in time. edit: duh woops i forgot to link, where's my head (after a 10 hour workday :roll: http://www.hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=952359
Last edited by kenji on Sat Mar 25, 2006 1:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

kenji
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Post by kenji » Sat Mar 25, 2006 1:12 pm

Oh, and please take notice that the G.Skill value ram you linked is AFTER rebate and the G.Skill Extreme is final price.

Dutch2
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Post by Dutch2 » Sat Mar 25, 2006 1:55 pm

You're right kenji, I posted here before I read most of the memory thread on the HARDOCP site. Thanks for all your input.

The (semi) final verdict is:

2GB G.SKILL Extreme DDR 500 $157

ASUS A8N-SLI Premium motherboard $157

AMD Athlon 64 X2 3800+ $295

D2.

kenji
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Post by kenji » Sat Mar 25, 2006 2:04 pm

Consider the Biostar TForce4 SLI. It's at the top of my list. But I'm not much of an asus fanboy. The chips in the mushkin/g.skill rams such as these have had some issues with some asus boards (picky boards) that's not to say that it's going to happen to you. Consider DFI too :D

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Post by kenji » Sat Mar 25, 2006 2:06 pm

oh and unless you MUST have the stock HSF, you can get 60 dollars off a opteron 165 @ monarch (details in hot deals section of hardocp forums)
OEM, 337-60.. 277. not bad for an opteron. of course the x2 3800 may be a better overall value with the stock hsf..

this one's a toss up. but call me funny i think i'm going for the opteron for it's rumored better silicon.. what's the difference.. hah

Dutch2
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Post by Dutch2 » Sat Mar 25, 2006 2:37 pm

I have a Big Typhoon for the CPU.

From what I have been reading, if you do not want to overlock, the 3800 is a somewhat better choice.

Of course cheaper is always good :)

D2.

jackylman
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Post by jackylman » Sat Mar 25, 2006 4:40 pm

I'd read this and think twice about spending any extra on fancy RAM. That's a nice sale on the G.Skill RAM you've selected, but if they pull the sale before you buy it, just get regular DDR400 CAS3 RAM. I really don't think you'll notice a difference if you don't OC and/or do a whole lot of gaming (and even then...).

Good mobo and CPU choice.

jackylman
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Post by jackylman » Sat Mar 25, 2006 5:16 pm

Another interesting option for your mobo is the ABIT AT8. In many ways, it outperforms the NF4 and it's cheaper.

$109.00 shipped from zipzoomfly (Good customer service in case you need to RMA for some reason): Here

An Anandtech review of the aforementioned board: Here

Dutch2
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Post by Dutch2 » Sat Mar 25, 2006 6:07 pm

Thanks jackylman for the link to the latency article.

It really suprises me that it makes that little difference in system performance. The CPU already runs many times faster than the RAM, so I figured if every already-slow access is delayed even more, it would have a big impact on system performance. Maybe I have to read some more :)

jackylman, the ABIT AT8 sure looks good in that review. I'm especially impressed by the great disk performance difference. I'm taking a serious look at this board. Thanks!

D2.

Dutch2
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New system and LCD choices...

Post by Dutch2 » Sun Mar 26, 2006 2:55 pm

Well after all this input I've come to the following system....

Antex P150 case with Neo power supply
3x Samsung 250G SATA harddrives
XFX 7600 GS video card
Big Typhoon CPU cooler
Nexus 92mm intake fan
AMD Athlon 64 X2 3800+ CPU
2GB G.SKILL Extreme DDR 500 memory

Only thing left is to decide between is ASUS A8N-SLI Premium or ABIT AT8 motherboard.

I'm also looking at two of these: DELL UltraSharp 2001FP 20.1-inch Flat Panel LCD but I'm worried they are becoming a little outdated. The wide-aspect ratio ones are newer (?) but I'm not sure I like them.... also, will the 7600GS do dual DVI 1680x1050?

Any input is welcome, thanks in advance!

D2.

jaganath
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Post by jaganath » Sun Mar 26, 2006 3:45 pm

Well after all this input I've come to the following system....

Antec P150 case with Neo power supply
Whichever motherboard you choose you should be prepared for possible compatibility problems with the Neo HE; Antec say all the problems with that power supply are resolved now, but I'm not convinced. Search for the (lengthy) threads on the various Neo HE issues in the power supply forum.

Dutch2
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Post by Dutch2 » Sun Mar 26, 2006 4:05 pm

Thanks jaganath, I've read the (lengthy) threads on the Neo issues.

I'm hoping with 3 harddrives and all the other stuff I will not have any issues.

If I run into a problem I can add a load or even design something that will draw some current only during startup.

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Re: New system and LCD choices...

Post by jackylman » Sun Mar 26, 2006 4:24 pm

Dutch2 wrote:Well after all this input I've come to the following system....

Antex P150 case with Neo power supply
3x Samsung 250G SATA harddrives
XFX 7600 GS video card
Big Typhoon CPU cooler
Nexus 92mm intake fan
AMD Athlon 64 X2 3800+ CPU
2GB G.SKILL Extreme DDR 500 memory

Only thing left is to decide between is ASUS A8N-SLI Premium or ABIT AT8 motherboard.

I'm also looking at two of these: DELL UltraSharp 2001FP 20.1-inch Flat Panel LCD but I'm worried they are becoming a little outdated. The wide-aspect ratio ones are newer (?) but I'm not sure I like them.... also, will the 7600GS do dual DVI 1680x1050?

Any input is welcome, thanks in advance!

D2.
The 7600GS card you're getting has dual-link DVI outputs, so it will run 1680x1050

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