My future Rock Solid, Rock Silent DAW : Advices needed !

Zacchino · Post by **Zacchino** » Thu Apr 20, 2006 12:30 pm

Hi there,

As a lot of people posting here, I'm also planning on building a new PC. Except this one will be especially used as a Pro Audio producing tool. This one is really seriously thought out (I mean, as much as my brain could take), and I need some good advice about the componements I chose...

After a whole month of google research (for reviews, especially from http://www.silentpcreview.com), forum searches (Northern Sound Source, Gearslutz, KVRAudio, etc.), and information collection (from real technicians), here's what I've decided to buy :

- Processor
AMD Opteron 175
Socket 939 2,2Ghz Dual Core
Cache L2 2x1024Ko

PS (1) : I've just seen the new Intel D950 Chip, it is a dual core running at 3.4GHz with 4MB cache, which seems to be pretty interesting compared to my current CPU choice... I haven't been able to find comparison reviews, against the AMD Opteron 175/180... Do you have any idea if, for a new CPU, I'm not taking too much risk ?

- Motherboard
Asus A8R32-MVP Deluxe
Chipset ATI Crossfire Xpress 3200
http://usa.asus.com/products4.aspx?l1=3 ... odelmenu=1

- PowerSupply
Seasonic S12 500HT ATX 500 Watts
http://www.seasonicusa.com/products.php?lineId=9

- Processor Fan/Heatsink Combo
Zalman CNPS9500 LED
http://www.zalman.co.kr/eng/product/vie ... 5&code=005
OR
Thermalright SI-120 + Nexus Silent Case Fan 120mm
http://www.thermalright.com/a_page/main ... _si120.htm + http://www.nexustek.nl/120mmcasefan.htm

PS (2) : Someone at the NorthernSoundSource forum told me that Nexus Fan needs to be cut a little bit to be fit on Thermalright 120. And that the Zalman 9500 might be noisier than Zalman 7000. (http://www.northernsounds.com/forum/sho ... hp?t=44485). Can you guys confirm this ?

- ATX Case
Antec Performance One P180 Black
http://www.antec.com/us/productDetails.php?ProdID=81800

- LCD Screen
2 x Samsung Syncmaster 930BF Black (4ms)
http://www.samsung.com/Products/Monitor ... KBEXAA.asp

- DVD Writer
Plextor PX-716AL (Slot-in)
http://www.plextor-europe.com/products/ ... e=PX-716AL

- S-ATA II Hard Drive Disk
Seagate ST3400633AS
400Go 7200RPM
Cache 16Mo - 12ms

Note that I already have a PCI-e Graphic Card (PowerColor Bravo X700, from which I just put off the fan), 2Go of Samsung PC3200 DDRAM, and 2 Seagate 160Go S-ATA Hard Drive.

I'll mainly be using this PC for high processing functions on multiple professional programs running alltogether. E.G. Sony Acid Pro 6.0 along with Cubase SX 3.1.944, and Tascam GigaStudio Orchestra 3 all rewired. Plus many high-end plugins (URS, Sonalksis, Waves, Convultion Reverbs).

So, the question is :

Am I aiming right with this setup ? Will I go throught compatibility issues ? Or do you have any better recomendation about the componements I chose (silent enough ? Cool enough ?)

Thanx in advance for your feedback and your precious time, and cheers from France !

qviri · Post by **qviri** » Thu Apr 20, 2006 1:04 pm

Okay, you won't be able to get silent with the 9500.

You may be to able to with the SI-120. However, I urge you to buy a Scythe Ninja instead. The tower-style fits in perfectly with the two fans located oh-so-close to the CPU socket in the P180. While you're at it, replace those two Antec fans with something quieter. Nexus and Scythe come to mind; there are more recommendations on the forums.

I also urge you not to go for the Intel. It is a space heater disguised for a CPU, and AMD's instructions-per-clock are much higher than Intel's. Clock speed isn't everything.

(silent enough ? Cool enough ?)

Silence is absolute. Are you really looking for silence, or just reasonable quietness?

No clue about the compability issues; building computers this high-tech is something I've never done myself.

Post by **MikeC** » Thu Apr 20, 2006 1:12 pm

re- Intel 950, qviri's opin confirmed. Ditto Ninja -- very good, especially in this case.

Looks like a good combo of stuff to me.

You could back off on the PSU -- an S12-430 or even 380 would be plenty. Your system won't ever hit 200W DC demand, even on peaks.

Zacchino · Post by **Zacchino** » Thu Apr 20, 2006 2:38 pm

First and foremost, thank you very much for the fast feedback ! I really appreciate it !

qviri wrote: I urge you to buy a Scythe Ninja instead. The tower-style fits in perfectly with the two fans located oh-so-close to the CPU socket in the P180.

Okay, passive cooling it is. But someone warned me that, in first place, passive cooling was good to go for AMD64 X2 3400+ max. Don't you think that the Opteron 175 will be overheating with this passive cooling setup (Scythe Ninja + P180 case fans) ? Note that I'm going to work several hours (6 to 12 per day), stressing the CPU with all the plugins I use.

In the second place, if I transport the case, I've been told to make sure I'm not transporting or moving the PC. Because of its excessive weight, I'll easily crack my CPU without extreme care, especially since it will be hanging sideways... Well Maybe that there's some workaround for these kind of physical issues, like attaching some wires from the top of the tower, to the case/mobo... But it's still scary ^^

qviri wrote:I also urge you not to go for the Intel. It is a space heater disguised for a CPU, and AMD's instructions-per-clock are much higher than Intel's. Clock speed isn't everything.

Well, I'm convinced about this now you've supported this point. You seem to know your stuff anyway. I'll go with the AMD. It's a safe bet I guess.

qviri wrote:Are you really looking for silence, or just reasonable quietness?

I'm lookinf for really good reasonable quitness. I can't ask for total silence. I just wanna be able to record vocals 5 feet away from my PC, without the fan noises.

MikeC wrote:You could back off on the PSU -- an S12-430 or even 380 would be plenty. Your system won't ever hit 200W DC demand, even on peaks.

Well well, that's good news ! I'll just go with the S12-430. I just hope that the Opteron 175, the PCIe PowerColor X700 mobo, the 2 to 4 gig of ram and the 3 hard drives, along with one or two PCI cards (in the future) and my 5 FireWire / USB2 devices won't cause me any power troubles... I mean, I don't care about the price for the PSU, I just want it quite, stable, and powerfull.

cmthomson · Post by **cmthomson** » Thu Apr 20, 2006 3:37 pm

Zacchino wrote:
qviri wrote: I urge you to buy a Scythe Ninja instead. The tower-style fits in perfectly with the two fans located oh-so-close to the CPU socket in the P180.
Okay, passive cooling it is. But someone warned me that, in first place, passive cooling was good to go for AMD64 X2 3400+ max. Don't you think that the Opteron 175 will be overheating with this passive cooling setup (Scythe Ninja + P180 case fans) ? Note that I'm going to work several hours (6 to 12 per day), stressing the CPU with all the plugins I use.

In the second place, if I transport the case, I've been told to make sure I'm not transporting or moving the PC. Because of its excessive weight, I'll easily crack my CPU without extreme care, especially since it will be hanging sideways... Well Maybe that there's some workaround for these kind of physical issues, like attaching some wires from the top of the tower, to the case/mobo... But it's still scary ^^

Ninja does not necessarily imply passive. In fact if you buy one today, it will come with a fan. Whether you choose to replace the fan or just not use it will depend on other system choices (CPU wattage, case fan speeds, desired noise level). Also, once you hear the stock P180 fans, you'll probably place an order for replacements...

As for transporting, if you're just moving it across the room, don't sweat it. If you're throwing it on a truck (or letting UPS do that), then either remove the HS, or pack the case with bubble wrap.

qviri wrote:I also urge you not to go for the Intel. It is a space heater disguised for a CPU, and AMD's instructions-per-clock are much higher than Intel's. Clock speed isn't everything.
Well, I'm convinced about this now you've supported this point. You seem to know your stuff anyway. I'll go with the AMD. It's a safe bet I guess.

Well that's a bit overstated. The 950D consumes about the same power as an 830D, and I was able to cool and quiet mine. The performance claims are dubious from both sides of the debate. That said, you'll have an easier time with the lower-wattage AMD CPU.

Shadowknight · Post by **Shadowknight** » Thu Apr 20, 2006 5:22 pm

Make sure you buy a fan controller. You can always slow the fans down even more, while still getting more than adequate cooling. Nexus/whatever fans are still audible at 12v, so you'll want to undervolt them to a quieter level. The Zalman MFC isn't bad, but it doesn't have any markings to indicate what voltage level you've set your fan(s) at.

Zacchino · Post by **Zacchino** » Thu Apr 20, 2006 6:18 pm

cmthomson wrote:Well that's a bit overstated. The 950D consumes about the same power as an 830D, and I was able to cool and quiet mine. The performance claims are dubious from both sides of the debate.

Do you mean that I'll be able to cool down an Intel 950D with P180 Fans and the Scynthe Ninja ? Unfortunately, the motherboard I'm aiming at buying if I'm going to buy an Intel, is th Asus P5WD2 Premium, which doesn't make the CPU Heatsink as close to 2 P180 rear fans, as in here : http://www.silentpcreview.com/files/ima ... n_p180.jpg (compare with the picture of the P5WD2 Premium motherboard here : http://www.pcinpact.com/images/bd/news/16889.jpg).

Damn, for audio, Intel chipset are just great for compatibility. That's another big reason why I was looking toward the 950D...

I have to take some more info on this CPU... I don't wanna waiste that much money in a barbecue ^^.

shadowknight wrote:The Zalman MFC isn't bad, but it doesn't have any markings to indicate what voltage level you've set your fan(s) at.

Yes, that's what I saw on Zalman's website... It looks like nothing is better than this MFC anyway, so I'll probably stick with this.

cmthomson · Post by **cmthomson** » Thu Apr 20, 2006 9:04 pm

Zacchino wrote:
cmthomson wrote:Well that's a bit overstated. The 950D consumes about the same power as an 830D, and I was able to cool and quiet mine. The performance claims are dubious from both sides of the debate.
Do you mean that I'll be able to cool down an Intel 950D with P180 Fans and the Scynthe Ninja ? Unfortunately, the motherboard I'm aiming at buying if I'm going to buy an Intel, is th Asus P5WD2 Premium, which doesn't make the CPU Heatsink as close to 2 P180 rear fans, as in here : http://www.silentpcreview.com/files/ima ... n_p180.jpg (compare with the picture of the P5WD2 Premium motherboard here : http://www.pcinpact.com/images/bd/news/16889.jpg).

Damn, for audio, Intel chipset are just great for compatibility. That's another big reason why I was looking toward the 950D...

I have to take some more info on this CPU... I don't wanna waste that much money in a barbecue ^^.

Yes, you can cool the CPU with a Ninja and pretty much any fan. The thing is, it will be louder than the equivalent AMD system because the wattage is higher. To see how much more effort it takes to make a Pentium D system super quiet, see my article here: http://www.silentpcreview.com/article310-page1.html

As the article makes clear, the challenge is not cooling the CPU (the Ninja is awesomely efficient at that), but the rest of the system, particularly the Vcore voltage regulators.

Zacchino · Post by **Zacchino** » Sun Apr 23, 2006 11:39 am

Ok, CMThomson conviced me really well, plus, I've read many reviews that the forthcoming Pentium D 950 and D 960 won't be at high wattage. BTW, the prices of these Pentium series have just dopped today of almost 300$, which is a great news ^^.

Here's the new configuration :

- Processor
Intel Pentium D 950
Socket 775 3,4Ghz Dual Core
2x2Mb L2 Cache, FSB 800Mhz, .065 micron
http://www.intel.com/products/processor ... /index.htm

- Motherboard
Asus P5WDG2-WS
North Bridge Chipset: Intel 975X
South Bridge Chipset : Intel ICH7R
http://www.asus.com/products4.aspx?l1=3 ... odelmenu=1
Question : will this motherboard compatible with standard DDR PC3200 memory ? If I need to buy 2Gb of memory, which brand ? I would've said Corsair, because it looks like mounted with heatsinks, with a great quality.

- PowerSupply
Seasonic S12 500HT ATX 500 Watts
http://www.seasonicusa.com/products.php?lineId=9

- Processor Fan/Heatsink Combo
Scythe Ninja Plus
http://www.scythe-eu.com/products/cpu/n ... -1000P.php
or
Scythe Mine
http://www.scythe-eu.com/products/cpu/m ... n-1000.php
(looks good too doesn't it ?)

Fan :
Several Nexus 120mm Real Silent Fan (for the Proc, and to replace Zalman's P180 cases fans)
http://www.nexustek.nl/120mmcasefan.htm
PS : what do you think about AcoustiProducts' AcoustiFan (http://www.acoustiproducts.com/en/acous ... tproof.asp) ? As quite as the Nexus ? As effective ? Better ?

Along with as many Zalman FanMate 2 as needed (I guess 3, am I right ?)
http://www.zalman.co.kr/eng/product/vie ... 0&code=017

- ATX Case
Antec Performance One P180 Black
http://www.antec.com/us/productDetails.php?ProdID=81800
And
AcoustiProduct AcoustiPack Deluxe :
http://www.acoustiproducts.com/en/acoustipack_dx.asp

- LCD Screen
2 x Samsung Syncmaster 930BF Black (4ms)
http://www.samsung.com/Products/Monitor ... KBEXAA.asp

- DVD Writer
Plextor PX-716AL (Slot-in)
http://www.plextor-europe.com/products/ ... e=PX-716AL

- S-ATA II Hard Drive Disk
Seagate ST3400633AS
400Go 7200RPM
Cache 16Mo - 12ms

Note that I already have a PCI-e Graphic Card (PowerColor Bravo X700, from which I just put off the fan), 2Go of Samsung PC3200 DDRAM, and 2 Seagate 160Go S-ATA Hard Drive.

cmthomson · Post by **cmthomson** » Sun Apr 23, 2006 12:56 pm

When purchasing a 9xx D CPU, make sure you get the "C" stepping. Earlier versions did not support the low power modes that reduce power while idling.

I was a big fan (pun intended) of the AcoustiFan DustProofs, until I did a direct comparison with Nexus. Although the Nexus orange fans are garish, they are significantly quieter. See my DIY article to be published today or tomorrow for details.

Once you've built the system, you'll find some component that you used to think was quiet is now annoyingly loud. I'd bet on the disks...

cmthomson · Post by **cmthomson** » Sun Apr 23, 2006 12:56 pm

You must use DDR2 memory. Your old memory is destined for eBay...

Zacchino · Post by **Zacchino** » Tue Apr 25, 2006 9:42 am

cmthomson wrote:When purchasing a 9xx D CPU, make sure you get the "C" stepping. Earlier versions did not support the low power modes that reduce power while idling.

I know !!! But I can't seem to find any of these Pentium D950 with the C1 stepping over there in France (they're always late, and always expensive, except for the cheeze ^^).

cmthomson wrote:Although the Nexus orange fans are garish, they are significantly quieter.

That's what I understood from the SPCR tests. Thanx for the personnal experience tip ! It's unvaluable, really.

cmthomson wrote: See my DIY article to be published today or tomorrow for details.

I'd love to !!! I really liked your first DIY article on the quieted OC'd Pentium D 830 system (http://www.silentpcreview.com/article310-page2.html).

cmthomson wrote: You must use DDR2 memory.

Yep that's what I saw... I'll just sell my SB81P Barebone with its P4 3,4 Ghz (single core), and its 2Gb of standard DDR (PC3200)...

By the way, and this is important to me :

I'm still hesitating about the choice of the CPU / Motherboard.

I've read tons of review saying that the AMD Athlon 64 x2 4000 series just outperform every single Pentium D 900 series out there...

I mean, how is this possible ? The D 900 series have 4MB of Cache, whereas Athlon 64x2 4000 series just have 2MB... They say that's because of something like the slow communication between the two cores, and because of something like the highwattage, and the low frequency (800Mhz instead of 1066 as far as I remember)... That's really weird stuff, especially from Intel's great quality reputation...

Plus, it seems that the AMD Athlon 64 x2 just don't support DDR2 memory... Or at least the best motherboard built on the 939 chipset just don't support it (e.g. Asus A8R32-MVP Deluxe).

So I'm still hesitating and the price really doesn't matter especially for three componements (memory, cpu, and mobo) :

First configuration :
AMD Athlon 64 X2 4800
+
ASUS A8R32-MVP Deluxe
(http://www.asus.com/products3.aspx?l1=3 ... â„¢ Xpress)

Plus : Great review on the Athlon 64 x2 4000 series performances
Bad : Only support up to 4Gb of memory, only support standard DDR memory

Second configuration :
Intel Pentium D 950 (with the C1 stepping, if I can find it ^^)
+
ASUS P5WDG2-WS
(http://www.asus.com/products4.aspx?l1=3 ... odelmenu=1)

Plus : Chipset known not to give much compatibility issues, ability to upgrade to the next Intel CPU (I read that the 975X chipset will supports the forthcoming generation of Intel CPU), up to 8Gb of DDR2 memory.
Bad : Tends to overheat a lot, performs not as good as the AMD 64 X2 4000 series in most comparison charts I've seen

I'm sorry to bother you guys with my selfish post, but I know these kind of discussions can get interesting for a lot of people in my situation...

Thanx in advance for your suggestions...
(and special thanx to CMThomson, you've been helping me alot !)

Zacchino · Post by **Zacchino** » Tue Apr 25, 2006 11:24 am

Damnit CMThomson you did it again. This second DIY Pc article you've made is really awesome. This is just brilliant !!!

Here's the link for the one who missed it :
http://www.silentpcreview.com/article595-page1.html

Post by **MikeC** » Tue Apr 25, 2006 11:26 am

I'd still go for the AMD X2 for the ease in cooling & reduced stress on all the parts, not just the CPU/motherboard. Who cares about DDR2 anyway? The theoretical gain in performance is mostly theoretical -- an X2 w/ DDR still outperforms a Pentium D w/ DDR2. Then you can keep your 2GB of DDR.

The integrated memory controller in the CPU + Hypertransport are 2 big reasons for why it outperforms the D. Plus cache can only do so much good up to a certain point; too much cache can slow the system down. (like too much RAM in general.)

jaganath · Post by **jaganath** » Tue Apr 25, 2006 11:53 am

Zacchino, I think you should strongly consider the AMD X2 CPU. The X2 performs better than the Pentium D, runs cooler and therefore will be quieter than the Intel CPU (which I presume you care about because you are posting here, and not Xtremesystems.com). Cache is not the sole determinant of CPU performance, and integrated memory controller + DDR trumps Intel FSB + DDR2.

Finally, MikeC has also recommended the X2. What more authoritative recommendation do you need?

QuietOC · Post by **QuietOC** » Tue Apr 25, 2006 12:15 pm

MikeC wrote:Who cares about DDR2 anyway?

DDR2 is really slower for general usage than DDR because of increased memory latency. Even for bandwidth-hungry P4 systems (from Xbitlabs):

It will be even slower on more latency-sensitive AMD processors.

DDR2 is suppossed to run cooler than DDR, but it not likely to be a real
world difference in desktop systems.

Shobai · Post by **Shobai** » Tue Apr 25, 2006 3:15 pm

basically, there are a few things to think about when it comes to your RAM choice, and therefore CPU choice.

to start with, DDR ram is still cheaper [and possibly more available] than the [at the moment at least..] inferior DDR2 ram. when DDR2 starts to get run at >800 speeds, it might start to come into the realm of DDR performance, but currently it's not really close, and is really expensive.

also, the problem with the 4GB limit appears to be with windows xp. apparently the 64bit edition doesn't have this problem.

on the other hand, AMD will be moving to the socket AM2 soon, which means that DDR will no longer be supported on their top end gear. so there'll be less DDR made, and more DDR2. DDR2 is the more "future proof" [if such a term isn't an oxymoron] of the two options.

so, basically, you can get an AMD chip [by all accounts easier to cool, and possibly more powerful than more expensive/"powerful" intel chips] and keep using your 2GB of DDR that you already have. this could mean you could upgrade certain other parts/afford more awesome gear if you have a budget, because you're not spending money on RAM.

conversely, if you're not worried about a budget, you could get an intel chip, and the fastest DDR2 ram you can find. this could be harder to cool quietly, but you do get to blow lots of money on hardkore pieces of equipment. and if it all gets too much for you, AM2 will be released sometime soon so you can grab a new motherboard and [potentially cooler running] AMD chip to use with your nice DDR2 ram. then you can foist your intel chip and motherboard off onto some unsuspecting yokel, for a win all round!! [larfs]

anyway, just some stuff to think about, i suppose

Zacchino · Post by **Zacchino** » Tue Apr 25, 2006 4:13 pm

Jaganath wrote: Finally, MikeC has also recommended the X2. What more authoritative recommendation do you need?

LOL, I know I might have sounded a bit rude by just thinking I was right about the Intel. I apologize. I'll go with the AMD Athlon 64 X2 4800+ (or maybe the 4400+ because of its price, and then I'll maybe overclock it to 225 system bus). It's still to early at this particular time of the year to go with Intel. Even If I'm sure their processor will be awesome.

QuietOC wrote:DDR2 is really slower for general usage than DDR because of increased memory latency. Even for bandwidth-hungry P4 systems

What a fool I can be sometimes, I didn't even make a quick search on this DDR2 thing. Thanx for bringing me back to the light side (btw I loved that Knights of the Old Republic game ^^)

Shobai wrote:conversely, if you're not worried about a budget, you could get an intel chip, and the fastest DDR2 ram you can find. this could be harder to cool quietly, but you do get to blow lots of money on hardkore pieces of equipment. and if it all gets too much for you, AM2 will be released sometime soon so you can grab a new motherboard and [potentially cooler running] AMD chip to use with your nice DDR2 ram. then you can foist your intel chip and motherboard off onto some unsuspecting yokel, for a win all round!! [larfs]

LOL !!! Unfortunately (very unfortunately), the budget is something I do worry about... I'm not Pharell Williams. Even him wouldn't buy such recent equipment for Pro Audio

Now, the last detail. I've been crossposting this question in the Fan / Controllers sections, but I guess that the people that follow this thread (300 !!! not bad !!!) will also find these questions useful :

I will change all the fans of the Zalman P180 case (let's say 4 120mm, plus 1 120mm for the CPU, am I right ?).

1. First of all, will I feel the need to change all of them with Nexus 120mm fans ?

2. Will I have to buy an Akasa Fan Contol Pro (AK FC-03) or 5 Zalman Fan Mate II ?

3. If I buy the Akasa Fan Control Pro FC-03, will I have to cut the cables to make them longer so they reach every single P180 fans ? Will this module block the front door of the P180 ?

4. And for both solutions, what voltage do you recommend for each fans (5v ?) ?

Thanx in advance for the tip !

cmthomson · Post by **cmthomson** » Tue Apr 25, 2006 5:02 pm

Zacchino wrote:By the way, and this is important to me :

I'm still hesitating about the choice of the CPU / Motherboard.

I've read tons of review saying that the AMD Athlon 64 x2 4000 series just outperform every single Pentium D 900 series out there...

I mean, how is this possible ? The D 900 series have 4MB of Cache, whereas Athlon 64x2 4000 series just have 2MB... They say that's because of something like the slow communication between the two cores, and because of something like the highwattage, and the low frequency (800Mhz instead of 1066 as far as I remember)... That's really weird stuff, especially from Intel's great quality reputation...

Plus, it seems that the AMD Athlon 64 x2 just don't support DDR2 memory... Or at least the best motherboard built on the 939 chipset just don't support it (e.g. Asus A8R32-MVP Deluxe).

In one of my many past lives, I was a CPU architect, so I can probably help you understand the differences.

The Pentium D (like all P4's) is based on the NetBurst architecture, which does hardware based runtime translation of x86 instructions into RISC micro-ops. These are fed into a very long pipeline that is run at a very high clock rate, and which has relatively feeble branch prediction. The high clock rate applies to the cache as well, which is where a lot of the power consumption occurs.

By contrast, AMD uses a much shorter pipeline that has a lower misprediction penalty. It also uses larger transistors than Intel, so its clock rate is much slower. This of course also slows down the cache, which in turn reduces power consumption.

In a system, the Pentium D has two complete CPUs, each with a private L2 cache, packaged in one carrier. Any data sharing goes across the FSB which is not really optimized for CPU-to-CPU traffic and introduces quite a bit of latency. The DRAM is on the other side of the MCH and has high initial latency for an L2 miss.

The AMD CPU cores each have private caches, as well as private tightly coupled memory controllers. Data sharing uses a hypertransport which has lower latency than the Intel FSB. If intelligent memory/CPU affinity is used, this gives significantly higher effective system memory bandwidth.

Watch this space: Intel is coming out later this year with a new pipeline, and sometime after that with a new memory architecture. AMD's success did not go unnoticed...

As for DDR2 memory, the benchmarks cited above aren't all that fair. In a system this expensive it makes no sense to use 533-MHz 5.5.5.12 memory. You should get 675-MHz 4.4.4.12 memory (Corsair and others make this -- it's called PC2 5400). This boosts the memory bandwidth significantly and has absolute latency comparable to DDR. This assumes of course you're willing to tweak clocks and voltages.

And of course all DDR2 controllers support dual channel (interleaving) which doubles the bandwidth, although it doesn't help initial latency.

I won't try to influence your choice. I had nontechnical reasons for choosing the Pentium D, and had some fun dealing with the higher wattage. As for performance differences, there are thousands of flame wars from both sides "proving" superiority.

You will be so impressed with the performance boost going from single core to dual core that the few percentage points the "best" CPU gives couldn't possibly matter. Especially if you overclock 20%...

BTW, the -WS MB is a good choice: you won't likely encounter the VRM issues that I did.

srbliss · Post by **srbliss** » Wed Apr 26, 2006 7:20 pm

Not the built in stuff for a pro sound rig I hope.

Rocc Howse · Post by **Rocc Howse** » Wed Apr 26, 2006 8:08 pm

Ok I have just built a PC for a similar purpose. Using mainly the silentpcreview as a resource.

Current Specs,

AMD X2 4200+ it has very low heat due to the small cache size,
Scythe ninja heat sink with Nexus 120mm fan
Case- Antec P150
Powersupply Seasonic 430W S12 (plenty and I have 2 UAD cards and 1 PCI sound card) has not really powered on the cooling fan yet.

Motherboard ASUS A8v VIA chipset(be careful if you are intending on going for UAD cards STEER CLEAR OF NVIDIA NFORCE 4 CHIPSETS, go for a VIA motherboard no real difference in performance I have the Asus A8v which has a heat sink)

Ram 2 GIG (you could go for 4)

Hard drive 1 Raptor 74 gig runs pretty quiet in the case and very fast. This is the Os drive.

1 Passive gigabyte 6800 video card.

And thats it. I currently do not have side panels and I can hardly hear it. When the panels are on cant hear anything. Performance and Heats is great and I beleive a very rounded setup before AMS comes into play. which I do not want to venture into unto these specs are too slow for my DAw.. which i use mainly for recording mixing and production.

Zacchino · Post by **Zacchino** » Thu Apr 27, 2006 3:51 am

cmthomson wrote: Watch this space: Intel is coming out later this year with a new pipeline, and sometime after that with a new memory architecture. AMD's success did not go unnoticed...

And that's one of the reason why I'm still hesitating between an AMD Athlon64 X2 4400+ and an Intel Pentium D 950 (stepping C).

Because if I choose an AMD chipset at this time of the year, my whole configuration will be obsolete in less than 8 month when AMD releases its AM2 chipset along with their new CPU.

Whereas Intel is going to release CPU that seem to be going to support the current 975x chipset.
So it's wether I just buy what's working the smoothest, which means AMD, but not upgradable, or I take a little risk by going Intel, and having heat issues for several month untill I can afford myself their next generation CPUs.

cmthomson wrote:In a system this expensive it makes no sense to use 533-MHz 5.5.5.12 memory. You should get 675-MHz 4.4.4.12 memory (Corsair and others make this -- it's called PC2 5400). This boosts the memory bandwidth significantly and has absolute latency comparable to DDR.

That seems really sweet. How does this traducts itself in the real world ? Will I have significant memory bandwidth improvement compared to my standard DDR PC3200 memory ?

cmthomson wrote:This assumes of course you're willing to tweak clocks and voltages.

I really don't like the fact that I'll have to change the factory default voltage and wattage setting of my MOBO, but if it really makes a change, why not. Is this a long procedure to make this happen ?

cmthomson wrote:I won't try to influence your choice. [...] As for performance differences, there are thousands of flame wars from both sides "proving" superiority.

Oh you do influence my choice, I trust you as much as I trust MikeC, and as much as I trust people at the Cubase forum for advices. I know you guys are ALL saying true stories. But the choice I'll make will only depend on my needs

cmthomson wrote:You will be so impressed with the performance boost going from single core to dual core that the few percentage points the "best" CPU gives couldn't possibly matter. Especially if you overclock 20%...

That's what I wanted to hear finally. I really hope that wether I choose AMD or Intel, I'll notice a difference with my current P4 3,4 Ghz (single).

cmthomson wrote:BTW, the -WS MB is a good choice: you won't likely encounter the VRM issues that I did

This board looks so neat !!! Plus, its CPU placement seem to be great for the P180.

Rocc Howse wrote:be careful if you are intending on going for UAD cards STEER CLEAR OF NVIDIA NFORCE 4 CHIPSETS

I've heard it's not true anymore (cubase.net forums). In any cases, If I go AMD, I won't go nForce4, I'll go ATI Crossfire XPress 3200. The thing is, nobody knows how this chipset reacts with PCI DSP Cards such as UAD-1 or PowerCore... That's one of the reason I'm more attracted by the Intel solution by the way.

Rocc Howse wrote:When the panels are on cant hear anything. Performance and Heats is great and I beleive a very rounded setup before AMS comes into play

That's one of the reason why I'm attracted with the AMD setup choice, because I'm sure it'll be cool and quite for real...

So as we've already declared an AMD/Intel battle, I shall start to peace things out : I'll just buy a motorola CPU

... No in fact, I'll might go Intel. But I'm not definitely decided yet.

To CMThomson : You didn't answer the Rheobus versus Zalman Fanmate question... Do you have any Idea of which one I should get, and how to set up things with the 5 120mm Nexus fans at 5v (afaik) ?

cmthomson · Post by **cmthomson** » Thu Apr 27, 2006 6:04 am

Zacchino wrote:
cmthomson wrote:In a system this expensive it makes no sense to use 533-MHz 5.5.5.12 memory. You should get 675-MHz 4.4.4.12 memory (Corsair and others make this -- it's called PC2 5400). This boosts the memory bandwidth significantly and has absolute latency comparable to DDR.

That seems really sweet. How does this traducts itself in the real world ? Will I have significant memory bandwidth improvement compared to my standard DDR PC3200 memory ?

In my system, boosting the frequency and dropping the latency increased the bandwidth measured by PCMark04 by 35%.

Zacchino wrote:
cmthomson wrote:This assumes of course you're willing to tweak clocks and voltages.
I really don't like the fact that I'll have to change the factory default voltage and wattage setting of my MOBO, but if it really makes a change, why not. Is this a long procedure to make this happen ?

Uh-oh. Overclocking is a whole other area. There are lots of web sites and forums devoted to that. The simple answer is that it can be very time consuming if you are a perfectionist. Generally, changing the DRAM latencies is very simple. Then you fiddle with the FSB frequency using first memtest86+, then Prime95. Typically you have to bump the DRAM and north bridge voltages (Intel arch), and usually you can drop the CPU voltage.

Zacchino wrote:
cmthomson wrote:You will be so impressed with the performance boost going from single core to dual core that the few percentage points the "best" CPU gives couldn't possibly matter. Especially if you overclock 20%...
That's what I wanted to hear finally. I really hope that wether I choose AMD or Intel, I'll notice a difference with my current P4 3,4 Ghz (single).

Even without overclocking, you'll (at least at first) be blown away. No more sluggish response when a CPU hog is running. Even running a virus scan in the background will be less obtrusive. MPEG encoding or other thread-enabled code runs twice as fast.

Zacchino wrote:You didn't answer the Rheobus versus Zalman Fanmate question... Do you have any Idea of which one I should get, and how to set up things with the 5 120mm Nexus fans at 5v (afaik) ?

I'm not very familiar with either of those. Note that most commercial fan controllers only go down to 7V. I use NMT-3 controllers for my 5V and variable-speed fans, and inline resistors for my fixed-speed fans. For experimentation, I like the DIY diode-based controllers described here: http://forums.silentpcreview.com/viewtopic.php?t=17725 and here: http://forums.silentpcreview.com/viewtopic.php?p=109317

QuietOC · Post by **QuietOC** » Thu Apr 27, 2006 6:22 am

Zacchino wrote:
cmthomson wrote:In a system this expensive it makes no sense to use 533-MHz 5.5.5.12 memory. You should get 675-MHz 4.4.4.12 memory (Corsair and others make this -- it's called PC2 5400). This boosts the memory bandwidth significantly and has absolute latency comparable to DDR.

That seems really sweet. How does this traducts itself in the real world ? Will I have significant memory bandwidth improvement compared to my standard DDR PC3200 memory ?

My point is that no CPU needs the theoretical extra memory bandwidth. Why not compare PC2-5400 to PC4800 (DDR600)? There is no point in spending money to buy high-speed "low-latency" DDR2.

DDR2 is better than DDR for GPUs, but it is not the best choice for GPUs either.

IMHO: DDR2 for CPUs = the new RAMBUS. It is marchitecture that sounds good on paper, but provides no real performance benefit. AMD should have avoided it. I will.

FWIW: there is very little performance lost going from dual channel DDR to single channel DDR with K8 CPUs. There just aren't many programs that can utilize much more than 3GB/s a single PC3200 stick can provide.

So, you won't see any real world performance benefit going to DDR2 even if you purchase the most expensive low-latency 1000MHz DDR2.

Post by **MikeC** » Thu Apr 27, 2006 7:25 am

QuietOC wrote:FWIW: there is very little performance lost going from dual channel DDR to single channel DDR with K8 CPUs. There just aren't many programs that can utilize much more than 3GB/s a single PC3200 stick can provide.

All the reading I have suggests this is true... along with handson experience playing around with Turion 64s w/ single ch mem 754 boards vs. A64s on dual ch mem boards. Very difficult to attribute any real world gains to dual ch mem.

A question for Zacchino -- So you'd spend >$600 on a processor to replace it in a few months with a (probably more expensive) Conroe which no one has seen any production samples of? I know it can be exciting to pore over fine details when you're about to buy something, and perhaps all this discussion from you is just that -- consumer rapture & anticipation at the end of the hunt, just before the kill -- uh, I mean, point of purchase (

)...

Personally, it seems counterproductive to buy something while planning its almost immediate replacement. I hate buying stuff I know I am not going to be happy with. Just look at all the stuff cmthomson did to make his system quiet and cool enough -- mind you, his DIY system is a great guide to follow. On the other hand, very little to none of it is necessary for an A64X2.

One thing no one has questioned yet... Conroe's thermal profile. Intel says 65W, but they also say something like 115W for their hottest processors -- which some hardware sites have measured at >160W. It's unlikely that Intel would change its TDP rating system... which suggests the Conroe will be comparable to >80W as AMD defines TDP.

Maybe you should just wait for reviews of a production Conroe before you buy?

Zacchino · Post by **Zacchino** » Fri Apr 28, 2006 7:20 am

cmthomson wrote: Typically you have to bump the DRAM and north bridge voltages (Intel arch), and usually you can drop the CPU voltage.

Great, If I go Intel I'll try some easy tricks like this, without taking too much risks of course (the system running almost 8 hours per day).

cmthomson wrote: I use NMT-3 controllers for my 5V and variable-speed fans, and inline resistors for my fixed-speed fans.

Thanx Mr. Thomson !!! I'll look out at this one. I hope it won't block the front door of the P160 (I've read it has 20mm of space between the front door and the 3.5'' disk bay).

QuietOC wrote: There just aren't many programs that can utilize much more than 3GB/s a single PC3200 stick can provide

Ow Ow, now we have 2 wars going on : DDR vs DDR2 and Intel D 900 series vs AMD Athlon 64 X2 4000+ Series...
I think Pro audio softwares like Steinberg Cubase SX can get the full advantages of the DDR2, but not sure, I'll go ask in the Cubase.net forum.
I really don't know what to choose... Hopefully I have the time to make my choice.

MikeC wrote: hate buying stuff I know I am not going to be happy with

So do I sir, so do I. But don't you hate buying something, and finding out just 1 month after the purshase that the company released a new chipset that is going to be the standard (e.g. buying AMD 939 chipset, when AM2 is almost there).

I just wanna make sure I won't have to change my motherboard for at lease 1 year. I'm so confused right now that I'm thinking "maybe that I'll wait a month before shopping this setup"...
But on the other side I really need something better than my current single core P4 3,4GHZ. It just can't take my pro audio application (it peaks at 100% alot, not when rendering, but even when just playing a song with a lot of virtual instruments and effects).

MikeC wrote:Conroe's thermal profile. Intel says 65W, but they also say something like 115W for their hottest processors -- which some hardware sites have measured at >160W [...] Maybe you should just wait for reviews of a production Conroe before you buy?

I saw this review, and it seems pretty clear that the Conroe is going fast :

http://www.hothardware.com/viewarticle. ... =794&cid=1

Now it's all about trusting or not trusting reviews I guess...

Jay_S · Post by **Jay_S** » Fri Apr 28, 2006 8:36 am

Zacchino-

I still do a bit of audio recording although I used to do a bunch more. It's really shocking to see what qualifies for an "nice, average" DAW PC these days - I used to mix 16 +/- (16/41k) tracks with many plugins on a PII MMX many years ago! I still have enough power with my 500mhz G4 powerbook with a 4200 rpm drive to record and mix 8 tracks at a time on motu digital performer (with at least dynamics plugins on every ch).

I think ANY of the CPUs you're looking at will provide more than adaquate performance - including your current system. Are you really running out of steam? Or just have the itch to upgrade?

You mentioned in a previous post that you just want to record vocals and not hear the fans. What kind of music do you produce? If it's solo voice (or solo anything else) recordings, I can understand your concern. But if there will be other instruments in the mix, the fan noise from a reasonably SPCR-ed computer should be masked - so I wouldn't aim for complete silence. Compromise is key. And for really critical situations where background noise cannot be tolerated, just move your pc into a closet for the tracking session. Or move your vocalist into the closet!

Maybe the following doesn't need to be stated, but...

This thread has been primarly discussing the pros/cons of pc hardware from the perspective of pc silencers (as it should, it's SPCR). Components have been suggested based on their acoustic and thermal performance. However (and your predisposition toward intel chipsets leads me to believe you already know this), for audio work I think your primary concern should be hardware/software compatibilty and stability. THEN work on acoustics. It's no use having the coolest and quietest AMD X2 cpu if your applications are unstable on it.

In your inital post you've referenced other audio forums (ex. gearslutz - which is EXCELLENT imho). I would absolutely search those forums for threads regarding compatibility and stability of every component you are considering with the audio apps you use. Once you have the stability issues solved, I'd start quieting it all down.

Jay

Zacchino · Post by **Zacchino** » Fri Apr 28, 2006 9:41 am

Jay_S wrote:Are you really running out of steam? Or just have the itch to upgrade?

Believe me, I'm running out of processing power (no memory issue obviously). I do vocal recordings once or twice a week on an average basis, so that's why silence is also important. But first and foremost, I use CPU hungry softwares, and audio realtime plugins, so that's why I really need to upgrade my setup.

Jay_S wrote: for audio work I think your primary concern should be hardware/software compatibilty and stability

Yes Indeed ! You guessed it, that's also one of the reasons why I'm looking forward at Intel's CPUs.

Jay_S wrote: In your inital post you've referenced other audio forums (ex. gearslutz - which is EXCELLENT imho).

I just L O V E this forum. I think I'll order a Gearslut T-shirt btw ^^ (I'm not a geek, but I'll be really proud to look like one). I have done searches and it seems like everybody loves the AMD, but at the same time, nobody reported any single issue with Intel's 975x chipset (whereas I saw many issues concerning AMD 939 based motherboard having some trouble with FireWire audio interfaces, or PCI dsp cards).

Jay_S wrote: Once you have the stability issues solved, I'd start quieting it all down.

You're totally right. Priority to the priority : rock-solid, rock-stable and rock-compatible system first. Thank you alot for pointing me out the primary goal Jay.

I changed my mind like 50 times within a week, but I think I'll stick with Intel for this time. I might regret it (espeially for the heat dissipation issues). But at least I'm making a safe bet, pro-audio speaking only.

jaganath · Post by **jaganath** » Fri Apr 28, 2006 11:30 am

I changed my mind like 50 times within a week, but I think I'll stick with Intel for this time. I might regret it (espeially for the heat dissipation issues). But at least I'm making a safe bet, pro-audio speaking only.

Anyway, even if the Intel chip turns out to be too hot to aircool quietly, you can always go to watercooling.

Jay_S · Post by **Jay_S** » Fri Apr 28, 2006 1:15 pm

Zacchino wrote:whereas I saw many issues concerning AMD 939 based motherboard having some trouble with FireWire audio interfaces, ...

Yes - but I don't think AMD or the socket are to blame. In my experience with MOTU firewire equipment, only TI-chiped firewire adapters are reliable. I'm not sure what all AMD 939 boards use for their onboard firewire, but I think most use SIS, and few (none?) use TI chips. So you're probably facing the same problem with intel based mb's.

In the end I just had to buy a TI-equiped firewire PCI card. And I still have problems. MOTU has all but explicity stated that they do not support PC hardware - only Macs - so their Windows firewire drivers are horrible. If your audio interface(s) are motu branded, I'd get a Mac.

If I was buying I/O hardware over again, I'd go with Echo or RME because their windows drivers are sooo solid. And PCI. I'm totaly fed up with firewire.

The stability issue is even more important once you have paying customers. If your audio production harware freaks out all the time, you will likely lose business. I'd rather have a slightly hot and noisy pc than lose business or miss deadlines due to crashing/instability.

My uncle's 48 track protools setup runs on - believe it or not - a single mac quadra 6100 with a load of external scsi drives. The mac is really just there to power the drives & display and to hold all the dsp cards - all the "work" is done by the dsp cards - but it is un-crashable. I'm soo jealous of his wimpy computer.

Most of the work I used to do was on location (mainly bars and churches) where ambient noise was pretty high and/or the mics we soo far from the laptop that its own noise didn't matter. Something you could also do in sessions where there is a very constant source of background noise (your fans, fo example), is to sample the noise by itself and then use Sound Forge's (or other) noise reduction process to filter out that specific noise "signature". If you over-do it, it will sound like junk but applied lightly it does a great job with noise "emergencies".

Jay

My future Rock Solid, Rock Silent DAW : Advices needed !

My future Rock Solid, Rock Silent DAW : Advices needed !

Rock Solid, Rock Silent DAW PC : The Conclusion

What sound card are you going use?