Average Core 2 Duo build

catalinr · Post by **catalinr** » Wed Aug 09, 2006 6:54 am

I am putting together an "average" (in terms of Budget, Performance, Noise) Conroe build. It will be used mostly for programming, browsing and office stuff. Very little gaming and moderate TV, movies and music.

Stability is paramount, budget is unlimited but value driven, best bang for the buck. "Bang" means fast and quiet. Quiet is very important, silence is not a goal though.

Here is what I came up with so far. Please let me know if you notice any possible problem with my choices.

CPU: E6600

I will NOT overclock. I have enough trouble finding my own bugs, without adding yet another factor of entropy in my system. E6600 is a pretty good performer at stock speeds, without breaking the bank.

MoBo: Intel BOXDP965LTCK

Pros
- has all the features I need at the right price
- Intel's reputation for reliable motherboards

Cons
- weak-ish sound, can be fixed with a proper sound card
- DDR2-800 memory limited at 1.8V, but I am not even going with DD2-800 at this point...

A second choice would be the more expensive GA-965P-DS3. I will upgrade if anybody can give me reasons to.

HeatSink: Scythe Ninja

I hope there are no issues with this on the Intel mobo, as I don't know of anybody that has this combination.

Also, is it very hard to install?

If this is overkill for a non-O/C machine, can you please suggest a cheaper, easier to install alternative?

Memory: Kingston KVR533D2N4K2/2G

Inexpensive, stable 2x1Gb DDR2-533 CL4 ValueRam.

Going to DDR2-667 would be just a couple of bucks more, but I understand that the performance would actually decrease because of the not 1:1 divider with the FSB. DDR2-800 is too expensive in this part of the world.

HDD: Western Digital WD5000KS

Per SPCR's recommendation, big and quiet.

LCD: HP LP2465 24" 1920x1200 wide screen

I am splurging a little on this one, but this is the one thing I stare at all day...

I am not sure if Dual-DVI is needed for this resolution or the standard DVI is enough.

Video: Asus EN7600GT-Silent/2DHT/256M

Anybody knows if the 7900GT is has a better performance/price ratio? And if I can find a passively cooled one?

I am also wondering about the Dual-DVI link...

Case: Antec P150 with Neo HE 430 PSU

The P180 is too big and hard to work with. Besides, I like white...

But does it give enough power to feed this build?

TV Tuner: Hauppauge or Leadtek

Recommandations are welcome here. Europer PAL needed, with PVR-like functionality.

Thanks,
Cata

PS
BTW, long time lurker, first time poster here.

stromgald · Post by **stromgald** » Wed Aug 09, 2006 7:42 am

CPU: Nothing wrong with just about the best desktop processor out there right now.

Mobo: I would consider ASUS. Usually better quality IMO and has good sound (i.e. you don't have to buy a separate sound card). Minor complaints about the Intel board: Not exactly good placement of components (power connectors or opposite sides of the board, but close to the edges). Poor use of real estate in the bottom right. But, if you want to use it, it should perform up to spec.

Heatsink: I assume you'll use it passively? With a good airflow system, that might work. Honestly, I'd get a Zalman 7000B if you're not into total silence. I know its old and not as impressive as newer heatsinks, but at 5-7V, it is quiet and will get the job done. If you want something with a little more cooling power, consider Thermalright SI-97A and SI-120. Personally, I don't like the Ninja, due to its large weight and going passive is always risky.

Video: Unless you're into heavy gaming, I wouldn't get anything higher. The 7600GT should be fine

Case: You could get an Antec SOLO (P150 w/o PSU) and add your own PSU. 430W is more than enough for your system. I'd say get a 350 or 380W model.

TV Tuner: No idea, haven't played with those.

Congrats on becoming a poster, not just a lurker!

catalinr · Post by **catalinr** » Wed Aug 09, 2006 9:09 am

Thanks!

I did considered Asus. But the price (double!) and (lack of) local availability ruled it out. I'd rather spend $100 on a x-fi and get top-notch sound if the one on the mobo turns out to be inadequate.

I'll think about the other heatsinks, especially SI-120 which I understand is lighter and easier to install. The big question is the mobo compatibility though. Passive with Ninja is an option, it depends on how good the airflow in the case will turn out to be.

I'm not gaming much but if another $100 doubles the performance from 7600 to 7900... I'd rather upgrade.

What advantages would I have if I'd add my own PSU? I believe the stock one is pretty good, and the price for the combo is smaller than buying them separately. Do you have any PSU recommendation that would offer a better value?

Cata

vitaminc · Post by **vitaminc** » Wed Aug 09, 2006 9:20 am

You probably don't need 7900 if you are not gaming much. I am using the exact same card, and WoW runs perfectly fine with everything enabled/maxed out. There are no passively cooled 7900GT on market AFAIK, and graphics heatsinks coolers will cost an extra $30-$50.

Single DVI port is good enough to drive a 24" flat panel. I am using that exact same card to drive both my Dell 2407 FPW monitor and a 17" Sony LCD.

430Watt PSU is way more than enough to feed your components. I am using 380Watt but have 3 more HDD and 1 more SCSI card, without any problems.

FraGGleR · Post by **FraGGleR** » Wed Aug 09, 2006 9:50 am

The e6600 seems to be complete overkill if you are not going to be doing major gaming or encoding. The e6300 will be more than enough for your needs and is a wicked overclocker if you found down the road that you needed the power. That will save you at least $100 and will get the best bang for your buck.

If you really are not a gamer, you could get away with a 7300gt. There are some very nice passively cooled ones available and they still provide remarkable (for the price) framerates in most current games. It is currently the price/performance leader. In most cases the bump in price from a 7600gt to a 7900gt will match the performance gains. You just need to decide what performance you want.

As far as for a board, you can't really go wrong with Intel. I am a fan of ASUS boards, but right now there just isn't enough selection out there for my tastes. I went with an ASrock board which cost me about $60 and has conroe support. It works just fine right now and will hold me over until some better values come along. The problem right now is that the 965 chipset is unproven and you are paying a premium for mid range boards. Stability track records haven't been set for the 965 chipset since the boards just came to market.

If saving a couple hundred is not that big a deal, then your original setup looks fine.

Just as a frame of reference, here is what I just built a couple days ago and it works very nicely for me.

Antec P150 with the 430 NeoHE PSU (Replacing the tri-cool fan with a Yate Loon 120mm once my second fanmate gets here) ($145 with additional fan)
Intel Core 2 Duo e6300 ($210)
ASRock 775DUAL-VSTA mobo ($60)
2gb of Corsair value select DDRII 667 ram ($155)
Scythe Ninja Plus (not that hard to install at all) ($48 with fan)
Yate Loon DS12L or something 120mm fan (with Zalman fanmate2) for the Ninja
Gigabyte passively cooled 7300gt (gives plenty playable frame rates on Quake4, Far Cry, and UT2004) ($85)
160Gb Samsung SATA hdd (the quiet one from last year) (already had)
NEC DVD burner 3550a (loudest thing in my computer) ($30)

All told, I have spent under $750 for a rig that runs circles around the one I built last year (p4 based). Have fun with your build!

jaQa · Post by **jaQa** » Wed Aug 09, 2006 11:25 am

Hello,

LCD: HP LP2465 24" 1920x1200 wide screen
I am splurging a little on this one, but this is the one thing I stare at all day...
I am not sure if Dual-DVI is needed for this resolution or the standard DVI is enough.

this is a nice monitor!!
The problem is see is that you'll probably want to play games on the TFT's native resolution of 1920x1200. To play current games at this high
resolution the 7900 is probably the safest choice.

I've just read a test of this monitor, it only has Single-Link DVI ports.
You also can choose to play games in interpolation mode where the picture is scaled, the interopation quality of this monitor was tested as good.

Graphic cards - it actually all depends on how much performance/visual quality during gaming you want - in 2D/movies they are equal anyway:
lowest price/lowest performance -> 7300GT
low price/low performance -> 7600GS
mid price/mid performance -> 7600GT
high price/high performance -> 7900GT (there's a passive one from MSI available)

everything higher is overkill to game once in a while, 7600GT is probably the best from a price/performance ratio.

HeatSink: Scythe Ninja
I hope there are no issues with this on the Intel mobo, as I don't know of anybody that has this combination.
Also, is it very hard to install?
If this is overkill for a non-O/C machine, can you please suggest a cheaper, easier to install alternative?

The installation is little bit more work than usual, I installed it on a socket 939 mobo and had to change the backplate. When installing the cooler, i pressed 2 of the mounting clips (crossed) at the same time down (to even the pressure on the CPU) and clipped them in, then the other two.
I would mount it before installing the MB into case, since this cooler is really huge.
If you want a very easy install, have a look at the Scythe Mine cooler, from a performance standpoint of view it is comparable to the Ninja, but is very easy to install. The fans Scythe delivers are of good quality.

I wouldn't cool the CPU passivly, i've once done this, but even my Athlong64 Venice 3200+ got over 60 degress during load (with only one 120mm fan from the PSU). Now i use the original fan of the ninja @ 5V and load temperatures have dropped by over 10 degress and my PC is still inaudible.
From this experience i can say that passive cooling is nonsense, very little airflow will give you much better temperatures, and fans under 800rpm aren't audible anyway.

Christian

catalinr · Post by **catalinr** » Wed Aug 09, 2006 2:59 pm

Actually, now that I think of it, I haven't played a game in years! I'd like to, but I don't have a compelling one in my radar.

And since I have an unused 6200TC laying around from an older build. I'll think I'll just use that one until I find a card and a game that I just have to have. I think it can drive the 1920x1200 @ 60Hz DVI though.

Speaking of which, the 24" lcd is one piece of hardware I always wanted. Never tried a HP before. The alternatives are either unavailable here (Dell) or too expensive (Samsung, etc.). And I only read good reviews, until today: http://www.maximumpc.com/2006/07/hp_lp2465.html

Now I wonder what to do... I mean, this doesn't affect me much, considering my usage scenarios, but I still don't like the idea.

The e6600 is not overkill. I may not be gaming or encoding but I am programming. This requires serious power over the compilation bursts. The faster I can test the C++ code I write, the better I think and the sooner I can move on to the next idea and implementation.

Since overclocking is out of the question, as I explained, a powerful CPU is required. This is actually what drove all my uprades, from p4 to a64 and now to Conroe.

Good idea with the Asrock. However, I am hoping that the P965 will turn out ok and I won't have to change the build at all until the time for the next one comes. I don't think there are any other features I want in a mobo, so if the stability is ok, I am happy!

Thanks for the HS advice! I wonder: how do you set the voltage of a HS fan to 5V?

Thanks!
Cata

bolek · Post by **bolek** » Wed Aug 09, 2006 3:08 pm

Since you mentioned stability as your primary goal, consider 975X-based motherboard and ECC memory.

jaQa · Post by **jaQa** » Wed Aug 09, 2006 10:00 pm

Hi,

I wonder: how do you set the voltage of a HS fan to 5V?

I've used a 4pin to 3pin adapter cable that was included with my Seasonic PSU.
You can buy such cables seperatly for a few $,
alternativly the "Zalman Fanmate" is also cheap and you can regulate the fan more precisly between ~5V-12V.

Christian

catalinr · Post by **catalinr** » Wed Aug 09, 2006 11:04 pm

Got it. Actually, I am hoping that the fan speeds would be automagically controlled by Intel's QST algorithm (similar to Asus's Q-Fan). I hate to have to think "Ok, now I am compiling, the CPU temp is raising, let's bump up the fan voltage!".

Indeed, 975X mobos and ECC memory would win at stability. The problem is with value, as they are quite expensive. I am hoping the P965 will prove to be quite stable without breaking the bank...

jaQa · Post by **jaQa** » Thu Aug 10, 2006 2:44 am

Hello,

Got it. Actually, I am hoping that the fan speeds would be automagically controlled by Intel's QST algorithm (similar to Asus's Q-Fan).

I don't know if this will work, normally the motherboard fancontroller control fans by a method called PWM (Pulse width modulation), and you'll need special fans with 4pin connector for this.

I hate to have to think "Ok, now I am compiling, the CPU temp is raising, let's bump up the fan voltage!"

It's not meant to be used like this, it's a very cheap adapter (about 5$) you put into the case & make the adjust one time more like "Ok, lets see how quiet I can get it and it still cools my CPU enough on full load" - which is normally so slow/low wattage that the fan is inaudible when paired with a higher end CPU cooler like the Ninja/Mine.

Christian

catalinr · Post by **catalinr** » Thu Aug 10, 2006 5:50 am

Thanks all!

The order was placed.

I ended up switching the MoBo to GA-965P-DS3 because the Intel did not have NCQ/AHCI and I could not find anywhere proof of a voltage-controlled fan speed option in Bios.

GA's manual had the right options.

Anyway, I will let you know how it works when it gets here.

Cata

FraGGleR · Post by **FraGGleR** » Thu Aug 10, 2006 6:29 am

ok, didn't realize you need the programming processor power. e6600 is definitely the sweet spot for you then.

the ninja mounting for socket 775 is not too hard. you need to add a backplate (pretty easy to lineup the self stick foam on it), and then screw in the retention brackets. I use a zalman fanmate2 that I got for a little over $4 to control the low speed yate loon 120mm fan that I have mounted to the ninja. to be honest, I can barely hear the fan at 12v, but at what I guess is 7-9v it is inaudible to me. after windows install the bios was reading only 35c for the cpu temp. i could probably lower the fan all the way to 5v with no problems. i will be stress testing this weekend.

have fun!

ken274 · Post by **ken274** » Thu Aug 10, 2006 2:11 pm

I would be really interested to know how you get on, as I am planning a very similar system myself with the P150 chasis and Gigabyte motherboard.

I'm quite intrigued as to how much the cpu fan is throttled when using the 'QST' setting in the bios versus 'auto', and how often the fan ends up running at full pelt. QST sounds really promising, but I'm a little worried that there is no way of manually configuring it at all as I'm wondering if it will tend to stick on the safe side of speed control as a consequence!

bolek · Post by **bolek** » Fri Aug 11, 2006 10:00 am

jaQa wrote: I don't know if this will work, normally the motherboard fancontroller control fans by a method called PWM (Pulse width modulation), and you'll need special fans with 4pin connector for this.

No, this is not true. Lots of motherboards have PWM fan control with normal 3-pin connectors which work fine with 3-pin fans. The controller outputs a square wave on the regular 12V pin.

Now, I don't actually understand the purpose of the fourth pin on the new connectors, but it's certainly not required for PWM to work. Perhaps it's there to keep PWM signal separate from 12V supply so RPM monitoring works more reliably.

jaganath · Post by **jaganath** » Fri Aug 11, 2006 1:25 pm

Perhaps it's there to keep PWM signal separate from 12V supply so RPM monitoring works more reliably

That's correct! How did you know that?

This thread gives a comprehensive overview of the whys and wherefores of 4-pin fans.

bolek · Post by **bolek** » Fri Aug 11, 2006 1:56 pm

Ah, good info. Thanks.

cmthomson · Post by **cmthomson** » Fri Aug 11, 2006 4:05 pm

catalinr wrote:Thanks all!

The order was placed.

Did you order the HP LCD? If not yet, I'd suggest you take a look at the Samsung 244T, which has exceptional color accuracy, 0.25mm dot pitch, and 6 ms update. In the US, it varies from $850-$1500; shop around.

1920x1200 will definitely change your work habits. You can have a bunch of windows open at once without resorting to a virtual desktop.

wcnngt · Post by **wcnngt** » Sun Aug 13, 2006 6:34 am

will this be cheaper than self-build:
http://www.cyberpowerpc.com/system/cfgc2d.asp?v=d
I am asking because I hate building myself. Besides the hassle of ordering components and installing, DIY sometimes simply can't match the quality of brand name in regards to noise, air flow control etc. I admit I am not an expert though. I built one 4 years ago and it turned out very loud and I had to get rid of it on ebay. I buy from Dell since.

If it is economic viable, which configuration will you choose? I want to overclock since core 2 duo is designed to do that, right?

catalinr · Post by **catalinr** » Sun Aug 13, 2006 10:54 am

I already received the LCD and it is GLORIOUS! No defects, no ghosting, it is gorgeous. Especially for movies, where the widescreen really shines. My worries after the MaximumPC review were unnecessary.

I did consider the Samsung 244T. It actually has the same specs with the HP. Unfortunately its price here is about 50% higher, so it was not a possibility.

I also got the Ninja, the HDD and the MoBo (Gigabyte). I am estimating the build on Wednesday!

I changed the case (my first choice, the P150 wasn't in stock) to the Antec Solo with separate Seasonic SI430 PSU.

Additions to the build:
- Logitech G5 laser mouse
- Logitech G15 keyboard
- XFi extreme music sound board
- Altec Lansing MX5021 2.1 speakers

As you see, I decided I want to game a little on this machine...

Now if only I could find a quiet high-end video card... The 7900 are more efficient but with crappy cooling. The X1900 have the best performance and awesome coolers (IceQ 3) but the thought of 2x the power makes me cringe...

Hmm, maybe I need a better PSU just in case I decide to go with ATI? At that monitor, I really need all the single-card performance I can get.

Cata

HiddenWolf · Post by **HiddenWolf** » Sun Aug 13, 2006 5:23 pm

Congratulations on your new monitor.
I've been running a dell 2405 for about a year now on an old 6600GT.

Works like a charm. I usually have two windows open next to eachother, and I couldn't do without anymore.

catalinr · Post by **catalinr** » Mon Aug 14, 2006 8:34 am

Thanks! But now I am seriously considering the HIS X1900 XT IceQ3 to drive it. Damn! A load of money. BUT to play on a 24" monitor at a lower resolution and without full details... would be a shame, wouldn't it?

)

Can anybody tell me if:
1) the Seasonic SI12-430 wattage is enough?
2) the amperage on the V12 rails is enough? How do I connect it anyway?
3) the Antect Solo is big enough? This is one loooong card.

I did the PSU power configurator/estimator and I got plenty of juice left, but now, with all the reading about rails and amperages and 12V, I am not so sure anymore. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
Cata

cmthomson · Post by **cmthomson** » Mon Aug 14, 2006 11:06 am

Take a look at the eVGA 7900 KO card. It is very fast and consumes much less power than other cards in its class. The stock cooler is quiet as long as you're not doing heavy 3D. If you game with the speakers turned down, you'll want to replace the cooler. I went with a VM-101.

moritz · Post by **moritz** » Tue Aug 15, 2006 2:55 am

I'm pretty sure that the S12 430 will (easily) be enough as long as you're not going SLI. The Solo should be big enough too, I doubt the X1900 is that long, but maybe somebody else could pitch in with a more certain answer. I'm planning a similar build, and I think the X1900 is a good idea. It's odd, a few weeks ago I was certain my upcoming computer would feature an AMD CPU and an Nvidia graphics card, but now I'm going for an Intel CPU and my first ATI card ever. But the cheaper X1900 GT I'm going for beats the 7900 GT in most benchmarks and comes at 200 Euros instead of 250 Euros, it's really hard to argue with that. I'll go for a third party cooling solution for the card, BTW, Zalman probably or maybe Arctic Cooling.

Max Wedge · Post by **Max Wedge** » Tue Aug 15, 2006 5:44 am

I think you might have a hard time getting a 1900 card in a solo.

I have a 1900gt and I put it into my P180 (dont have mobo yet) and had barely enough room from the back of the card to the internal 120mm fan (on the upper hdd cage). Prolly just enough room for the pci-e cable.

catalinr · Post by **catalinr** » Wed Aug 16, 2006 11:37 am

I really hope not! I already got the case (not the card yet though) and by measuring it, it looks that there is enough space for the 242mm specified on the HIS website.

Maybe in the P180 the mobo is oriented differently? In the P150, the end of the PCIe cards fits agains the drive bay. So I think you'd have trouble with the vid. card's power connector if you had a HDD right after it.

BTW guys, the E6600 is here! I will attempt the build tomorrow if the memory and PSU arrive as well.

The TV tuner decision was a Powercolor Theater 550Pro.

Whish me luck!

Cata

stromgald · Post by **stromgald** » Wed Aug 16, 2006 11:55 am

catalinr wrote:I really hope not! I already got the case (not the card yet though) and by measuring it, it looks that there is enough space for the 242mm specified on the HIS website.

Maybe in the P180 the mobo is oriented differently? In the P150, the end of the PCIe cards fits agains the drive bay. So I think you'd have trouble with the vid. card's power connector if you had a HDD right after it.

I have an Antec 3000B which is close to the same size and configuration as the SOLO/P150. The long video card might block one of the hard drive slots, but other than that, it should not be a problem. I mean, you have 3-4 internal hard drive bays, so losing one isn't that big of a deal unless you want a RAID setup. Just make sure you install the hard drive before the video card. No need to go squeezing and working around the graphics card when you don't have to.

Good luck.

Isy · Post by **Isy** » Thu Aug 17, 2006 12:24 am

Please let me know how you get on with the 1900 card in the p150. I am planning a similar build and was wondering the same. i.e. will it fit, is there enough power in the 430NeoHE, etc

Isy · Post by **Isy** » Thu Aug 17, 2006 12:37 am

Please let me know how you get on with the 1900 card in the p150. I am planning a similar build and was wondering the same. i.e. will it fit, is there enough power in the 430NeoHE, etc

Average Core 2 Duo build

Average Core 2 Duo build

Re: Average Core 2 Duo build