Multi function (HTPC, PVR..) low power and quiet SFF.Advice?

[Kaoru]

Even if this is my first SPCR post, its no reason to keep it short ... I'll just jump into it right away..

Intro
Im planning an all-in-one system which will be sitting next or close to a TV. It will be on 24/7/365, so power consumption is the primary concern.
Ideas and advice on splitting into more specialized computers are welcome, but please include reason(s) why.
Im not in a hurry nor is cost a concern, but would like to close this idea up, so I start looking for components.

Here is a list of functions I had planned it should be able to do:

• PVR. Record TV w/EPG (including timeshift. 2 or more simultaneous recordings prefered)
• HTPC. Playing recorded TV, compressed videoes (divx, xvid etc) and DVDs
• Office. Common office work, Internet browsing and chatting
• Other. Download stuff off the different services (FTP, BitTorrent, P2P etc.)
• Fun. Run Microsofts .NET framework (for running future .NET applications, including my own)

Other then that, a maximum of 25dBA is the aim for noise, low power usage and minimal case size.

The system will be on a local network (100mbit/1000mbit) with a NAS (network attached storage) unit which will provide main storage and at least one general/gaming computer.
The NAS unit is a ReadyNAS by Infrant.com. It currently houses 2x Maxtor MaXline II 250GB SATA drives, which I was planning to use the all-in-one system (1 drive purely for PVR and the other split into two. Part A for OS & programs and part B for documents & downloads), but 1 drive could also to the trick - however both is prefered.
The NAS unit is 220mm x 132mm x 222mm (HxWxD), which is a nice size, so this is the aim for case size.

Hardware
Nothing is decided yet, however there are 3 aspects which must be considered when choosing. These are power consumption, noise and physical size. All equal important.

I have been looking at different components, but without any end results. These include:

• VIA motherboards with built-in CPU, sound and video capabilities (especially VIA EPIA EX15000G, mini-ITX). item @ company
• Core 2 Duo and quado-core models (because of their high performance and low power usage)
• Mini-Box M200 Barebone System. (both case and with a complete system) item @ company. review @ epiacenter
• Hauppauge WinTV-HVR-950 (TV-tuner. Maybe a non-usb kind is required instead). review @ hardcop

What I need from YOU:
Advice about my all-in-one system idea
Problems I have not spotted
Ideas for hardware and software solutions
General comments

If you need addionally information, ask away. I'll be taking questions now

[vincentfox]

The problem with the Via, is their rather limited CPU and graphics on-board, make them marginal for HTPC usage. Especially if you are thinking to show high-res videos it will probably have trouble with 1080i stuff.

A Yonah in the Intel line seems about the best for power-efficiency. Yes there are desktop boards that will accomodate these laptop CPU. I wouldn't have reservations about using a Celeron M either, the HTPC role really isn't going to benefit much from dual-core. Check the thread by user smilingcrow here:

viewtopic.php?t=35472&highlight=

[Avalanche]

I use one computer for PVR and office/gaming duties, using the excellent free program GB-PVR. If you don't already have software picked out, it might be worth a look. I use a Hauppauge 150MCE with it, and an ATI Remote Wonder 2.

You will need lots of hard drive space for recordings, especially if you get a HD tuner. Compression helps, but it's a trade-off. Sometimes I get good results, sometimes not.

[Maelwys]

I've been thinking about building a new HTPC as well lately. I currently have an old Shuttle SS51g as my HTPC but the thing is extremely loud. Actually, the hard drive is extremely loud, the system itself is just moderately so.

In any case, I too was looking at the Socket-M processors. Are the C2D Merom cores overkill do you think? What about their power consumption compared to Yonah?

One other consideration, at least for small HTPC use, is which microATX motherboard is decent and supports these processors? I was considering another Shuttle box, but after my experience with my current one, I think I need something with more expansion capabilities.

[mattthemuppet]

what I'd look into (depending on cost of course):

- dual core. If you want to record and play back at the same time, you'll need something with a bit of poke. A hardware based TV card (like the Hauppage 150 and above) will help, but given the thermal envelopes alot of new dual core CPUs are in, I don't think you'll have trouble with power or heat. Your choices are, mobile C2D (pricey mobos), desktop C2D (sadly high idle power) or the new 65nm AMD X2s, particularly the X2 3600 (very low idle, not as powerful as C2D).

- mobo. AFAIK the microATX choices for C2D are still a little limited, but still decent. There are several decent AM2 microATX boards. go for the 965 intel chipset or an AMD/ATI or nVidia 6150 chipset - they're all pretty low power.

- case. The Antec HTPC (fusion?) is the only one I'm familiar enough with to recommend. Anything with at least 80mm fans would be worth looking into. I'd also recommend looking into a PicoPSU as you're power requirements are going to be pretty minimal and HTPC PSUs are generally bespoke and noisy.

- HDD. That's easy - if you have a NAS, just pop in a 40GB 2.5in HDD for the OS and any programs you need. Essentially draws no power and makes no noise

- TV tuner. Tricky. Depends on what you're recording from too. If it's a HD source then I've no idea, though there are several analogue/HD cards out there. If you only want one card and are recording from analogue, then the Hauppage HVR500 (or whatever the top model is now) is probably your best bet. It has 2 tuners, allowing you to record two different channels at once, though if you're recording from a Sky box then it's kinda pointless as you can only record what the Sky box is playing (unless you have a standard TV aerial as well). One thing to bear in mind with hardware based TV tuners (like the Hauppage ones) is that, although they offload decoding/ encoding from the CPU, they have much higher power consumption than simple software cards. Evidence is anecdotal at best, but a dual tuner card could be expected to use up to 25W at load and 10-15W idle, compared with 1-5W total for a software based one. Horses for courses really.

Other general hardware advice is pretty easy to find on here

[Maelwys]

Not to hijack your thread Kaoru, but this might give you an idea of where to start your build as well. This are the parts for the HTPC system that I've been considering, and my needs are very similar to yours. I need to do it cheaply though, so I think I'll have to scratch the C2D line:

Case: I'm considering an Antec 3300 for the case, since it will live behind the TV and doesn't need to be visible. Plus, a 120mm Nexus will keep everything cool with little noise.

Mobo: Asus M2NPV-VM Socket AM2 Geforce 6150 microATX.

CPU: AMD Athlon x2 3600+ Brisbane w/ Scythe Ninja Rev B. in passive

Tuner: Hauppage PVR-250 (PVR-150 is the new model) is what I have currently and it works very well for SD recording. The PVR-500 is also good because of the dual tuners.

Video: The onboard 6150 video for SD playback should be fine, and as matt mentioned they run pretty cool and are low power. If HD playback is needed later, a passively cooled card can always be added.

Hard Drive: A 2.5" drive is a great idea for a boot drive, and then use your NAS for general storage. Otherwise anything big and quiet will work.

[Kaoru]

Good input from all, but I think another approach is better, namely definering what my hardware needs really are. Example, before choosing a motherboard I need to define what CPU is needed.
Mostly because I dont know what is needed for the diffenent tasks, besides office work. Help, ideas, reviews, know-how and comments to cover these (see below) are greatly appreciated!

I live in Europe, so no HDTV yet. At least not in my area - im on cable. So analogue signals is what I will be recording, however the analogue signals are currently being fased out to digital (not sure if this is a problem when choosing TV tuners).

Here is the list, numbered in order by most importance:

1. CPU (is multi-core needed?)
2. Motherboard (which ones matches the socket the CPU needs & has onboard LAN, GFX and sound while is miminal in size)
3. Case (which is smallest while still has room for motherboard, 1 DVD-burner and 1-2x 3.5" SATA HDDs OR 1x 2.5" HDD. Passive cooling is of course required so good airflow is a must.)
4. Tuner (is 1, 2 or a 2-in-1 tuner card(s) needed)
5. PSU (a picoPSU should be enough, but a AC-DC or DC-DC one ?)

Originally I wanted to use a VIA EPIA EX15000G due to its low power usage, hardware HDTV features, HD audio, 2x SATA HDD capacity and its small size (mini-ITX). But this was suggested to be too weak.

Now my idea is using a Core 2 Duo mobile (model T5500. 1.66GHz) with a flexATA or mATX motherboard with onboard giga LAN, sound & GFX. Together with 1 or both of my Maxtor 250GB SATA HDDs.
However Core 2 Duo has a TDP of 35W while a Core Duo only has 31W. I havent been able to find information that say what the differences are. Links appreciated.
Even though AMDs X2 CPU have lower idle power usage I dont think they are powerful enough and a Core 2 Duo is highly overclock-able.
Havent found any flexATA (similar in size to mini-ITX) with a 479 socket (Core Duo/Core 2 Duo) yet. However found quite alot mATA boards, but havent picked any out.
Since I havent desided on a mobo-cpu, it was pretty such vaste to look for a case, but I have anyways . They include Origenae X15e v2 (touch screen is nice, but I find overall size too big. it has a nice look), SilverStone LC19 (like the size and look. has room for mATA/mini-ITX, 1x slim optical, 1x 2.5" or 3.5" HDD and 2x 40mm fans. 1xPCI-Ex16 riser card is included), Antec NSK2400/Fusion (based on the SPCR review)

Software:
I was planning using Windows XP as OS with other programs to cover download, PVR & EPG and playback tasks.
Avalache's suggestion for PVR, GB-PVR, looks fine.

I ruled out linux based HTPC OS'es, such as MythTV, out because I might require Microsofts .NET framework later on and the other programs I need might not be linux supported. Mono (open-source equivalent to .NET) seems to far behind.

[Maelwys]

As far as the CPU goes, a Core 2 Duo will be much more than what you need for SD recording and playback. My current HTPC is built in an ancient Shuttle case, the S551g:

http://global.shuttle.com/Product/bareb ... sp?B_id=16

It's running a P4 2GHz Northwood with 512 MB of ram and a passive AGP nvidia 7300. It performs all my PVR functions (1 tuner), allows playback and recording at the same time, plays DivX and Xvid files, cuts commercials and transcodes on the fly, and does some light gaming. By all accounts, it's a pretty weak machine, but it's more than enough for its purpose.

So no, you don't need a powerful dual-core machine to do what you want. Of course, having a C2D or x2 CPU can't hurt, and the fact is that many dual-core CPUs are efficient and cheap. As for the motherboard, I would look at mATX over VIA not because of power needs, but because you'll probably want the expansion slots (an SD tuner like a Hauppage 150 or 500, an HD tuner, ability to add dedicated PCI-e video later).

One last thing: the PicoPSU. I think that's a fantastic idea, and I'm considering a 200w PicoPSU for my next HTPC build. If you go this route, please keep us posted ... I'd love to see how it works out.

[alphabetbackward]

I have a Hauppauge HVR-950 and can play HD just fine and before I gave my 150 to my girlfriend, it handled SD fine without a hitch.

My system is a Socket 939 AMD 3200+ @ 1.20 or 2.4 depending on load and using the onboard 6150 graphics. I do have the Purevideo decoder which probably helps a lot.

Right now, the limiting factor is my crappy indoor antenna.

[mattthemuppet]

I don't think you need a dual core CPU, but given how cheap they are (AMD at least) and how little extra power they use, I don't really see any reason not to.

As you'll be recording off of cable, you'll only really benefit from 1 PVR card (again, unless you use an aerial for free to air as well). With a dual-core CPU you'll probably be fine with a software based card - mine's a Leadtek 2000XP. Which'll save you some money and lower power consumption at idle.

There are a host of AM2 mATX boards with everything you need. I don't know which would be best, but there are plenty of people on the CPU+motherboard forum that do

With a X2 3600, 2.5in HDD, onboard video and a tuner card you'll struggle to break 90W at load, even before any CPU undervolting, so a PicoPSU+120W brick should cover you fine. I'm pretty sure there's a thread on the PSU forum (or Article discussion, not sure) about the PicoPSU where people have a range of suggestions for power bricks.

Whatever case you go for DO NOT get one with fans smaller than 80mm as you'll struggle to get enough airflow at a low enough sound. The NSK2400 is a very good option, though you'll end up with a spare PSU if you do want a PicoPSU.

[Hezu]

I live in Europe, so no HDTV yet. At least not in my area - im on cable. So analogue signals is what I will be recording, however the analogue signals are currently being fased out to digital (not sure if this is a problem when choosing TV tuners).

If DVB signal is available, I would strongly advise to get a DVB card as it offers several advantages:
1. Recording DVB signal is much easier as the need to encode the analog signal is eliminated. This also means less CPU power is needed as basicly you can just dump the DVB stream to disk as an MPEG video file.
2. It is also possible[1] to simultaneously record multiple channels (or watch one and record others) with single tuner, although one tuner can only recieve data from one multiplex at time,
3. EPG data comes from the same signal as the actual TV broadcast.
4. More future proof, as in many places, the analog TV signal is being phased out.

[1] Assuming the TV viewer/recording software allows this, I know that at least that most GNU/Linux DVB applications allow this.

Granted, there are few downsides too. First, in worst case, if DVB signal bad, the picture and sound will be a mess, while analog TV signal may still allow you to somehow understand the content even if there is "snowy" picture. Then there's four types of DVB signal: DVB-T (for signal from terrestial broadcast), DVB-C (cable television), DVB-S (satellite signal) and DVB-H (signal optimized for mobile handhelds, not widely available yet and not really applicable if using a computer). And to top that I have heard that some cable operators may have used some tricks with DVB-C, which may lock out (some) PC DVB cards, at least if those do not have a card reader for decryption key cards. Also I think DVB-C tuner cards are less widely available than terrestial and satellite versions.

[pelago]

I live in Europe, so no HDTV yet.
2. It is also possible[1] to simultaneously record multiple channels (or watch one and record others) with single tuner, although one tuner can only recieve data from one multiplex at time,
[1] Assuming the TV viewer/recording software allows this, I know that at least that most GNU/Linux DVB applications allow this.

Notably, MythTV does not currently support this, although apparently it's being worked on. Also note that some USB DVB hardware doesn't send the whole multiplex to the PC, just the single channel. The Freecom USB DVB-T stick, for example, doesn't send the entire multiplex. Check http://linuxtv.org/

[monkeys1972]

Hello!

Just a note on the software front. Personally I use MediaPortal which can be found here:-

EDIT: For crying out loud what's the deal with not being able to post an url before you've posted a message!! Grrrrr. Replace the / with . for the url.

www/team-mediaportal/com

It's free, open source windows based software with a huge following and very active development. Support for Analogue, DVB-T and satellite tv cards. Also supports streaming live tv to other PC's around your house. Anyway that's my tuppence.

Cheers,

Andrew.

[jaganath]

EDIT: For crying out loud what's the deal with not being able to post an url before you've posted a message!!

Hi Andrew, welcome to SPCR. The above measure was taken to make things harder for spammers; as I hope you'll agree, it doesn't really deter genuine posters, but puts off the lazier spam merchants.

[monkeys1972]

Hey!

Sorry, hope the EDIT didn't sound to grumpy

Andrew.