Building my first PC/DAW - advice? I've got questions!

sgx · Post by **sgx** » Tue May 29, 2007 3:56 pm

Hi all. I've done some more research and edited my post so that it is more "what do you think about this set up" than "spec out my entire PC"

I'm looking into building myself a quiet DAW. I don't need it to be silent for recording (I don't do much recording), but I just want it to be quiet because it will be in the same room I sleep in. Fan noise bugs me.

I do mostly software synthesis, with occasional orchestral sample libraries.
The main thing I need is fast CPU power. I'll probably start with 2 GB ram and maybe drop another stick or two of 1 GB in later.

I also am a designer, so I'll be using Flash, Photoshop, and maybe some video editing. I do a lot of misc multimedia work.

I don't plan on overclocking. I don't know enough to do that safely.

I'm trying to keep this PC < US$1000

-I'm pretty sure I want the Core 2 Duo E660.

- ASUS P5W DH DELUXE/WIFI-AP LGA 775 Intel 975X ATX Intel Motherboard - yeah? good?

-What brand and type of RAM is good? I really have 0 clue what's the best stuff to put in my box.

-I'll be using an old copy of XP I have on an older computer - will I have to contact MS tech support to get them to let me install it on a new computer?

-Gigabyte 7600 GS GPU - Passive, seems to be decent for games. I want to play Half life 2.

-I think I'm just going to use a sort of junky mid tower atc case I have right now. If I don't like it, I'll upgrade to something else later.

-I already have a 320gb sata HD I plan on using.

-Power supply - how much wattage do I need to run something like this reliably? 550? Will SeaSonic S12 Energy Plus SS-550HT be good, or can I get something cheaper/less wattage?

-CPU fan - Scythe SCASM-1000 120mm Sleeve Andy Samurai Master CPU Cooler other suggestions that are somewhat inexpensive?

Newegg cart is currently at $858.

I'll be using a TBD firewire audio interface for sound, so I don't care about any onboard or other audio solutions.

Any help would be greatly appreciated. I'm worried that I'll end up buying some part that won't go with another because I didn't know something, so I'm really banking on you guys' (and gals?) expertise to sort this out and double check it for me!

Thanks a lot.

~El~Jefe~ · Post by **~El~Jefe~** » Tue May 29, 2007 9:14 pm

e4300.

learn how to overclock. it will be faster for gaming, audio, graphic art, and be more stable, have less voltage, less wattage and cost 150+ dollars less.

pwnd.

no need for more than that even if you DIDNT overclock it.

sad but true. 6600 is waste of money if you go intel. amd, on the other hand, get the ghz you want to be at.

sgx · Post by **sgx** » Tue May 29, 2007 10:11 pm

~El~Jefe~ wrote:e4300.

learn how to overclock. it will be faster for gaming, audio, graphic art, and be more stable, have less voltage, less wattage and cost 150+ dollars less.

pwnd.

no need for more than that even if you DIDNT overclock it.

sad but true. 6600 is waste of money if you go intel. amd, on the other hand, get the ghz you want to be at.

You.....pwnd me. aaarrrgh

Why is everyone and their brother seem to be getting a 6600 then? I could overclock that too if I wanted to learn.

And that's the thing...I clearly do not know a whole lot...I'm not about to risk the life of my system by OCing when I don't know how. I don't really have the interest in learning either - I don't find building a PC interesting...just necessary.

I did some research and updated my first post so it lists more specific items. Please give me feedback. I understand my post was pretty vague before. Thanks!

~El~Jefe~ · Post by **~El~Jefe~** » Wed May 30, 2007 7:07 am

here's the deal.

the 6600 has double cache on it. it normally doesnt amount for much of anything. the 6600 has no headroom for real overclocking.

Makes sense though right? e4300 is the same chip but a NEWER edition of that chip and just not quickly clocked with half the ram on it. Now, the 6400 or whatever chip backwards from the first debut of the 6600 is, that one has half the memory DISABLED because it's broken. It uses more wattage still compared to the e4300. the 4300 is built with only 2 megs cache, smaller chip. cache takes up a lot of room and somehow, somewhere, the whole chip uses less wattage in general.

Put all of that together and look at overclocking. For the same ghz rating, an overclocked chip on Intel always is faster than the non overclocked version of that ghz. Intel has no on die memory controller so it has a huge bottleneck in that department. When you increase the bus speeds, it really is a happy camper. getting a e4300 up to a 6600 speed would result in a faster gaming system than a 6600 at that speed.

a e4300 is like a 2.3 ghz AMD chip for gaming. out of the box, it is already a gaming chip. bump it 30%, it will start to cream most chips out there and run cool. It takes about 5 minutes to read a paragraph about what to do with your given motherboard. it's really simple.

6600 is for people who dont ever want to learn how to overclock. that is it. not a bad chip just not something for someone who likes to tinker and save a lot of cash.

sgx · Post by **sgx** » Wed May 30, 2007 11:56 am

Interesting...so the e4300 is actually newer/more advanced....just sort of cut back a bit?

I am a cheapass....and I could just buy a new CPU a year or two later for the same amount of money I am saving with the 4300...

~El~Jefe~ · Post by **~El~Jefe~** » Wed May 30, 2007 3:29 pm

yes.

also, a quad core is what you want later on. slap one in onthe cheap in 1 1/2 years and be up to max speed.

e4300 is where its at.

people forget that intel is all about oc'ing vs amd. (you can with amd but isnt the same gains)

bonestonne · Post by **bonestonne** » Wed May 30, 2007 5:06 pm

about the XP installation, you may need to buy a whole new license. if its a home edition CD that came with a computer as a recovery tool, it'll only work on that computer.

any other case and you'll have to refer to M$, i don't look into how they license, i just know that i use a VLK version that i bought because i switch computers a lot, and i can't be worrying about a license expiring or anything.
-------------
i've got little money for a good CPU, so i'd go with what everyone else is saying, just have a good cooler if you're going to overclock, not many stock intel coolers are good.
-------------
over 2 gigs of RAM, run a 64bit OS...period, you'll have a much better utilization of your resources.

jessekopelman · Post by **jessekopelman** » Wed May 30, 2007 9:25 pm

bonestonne wrote:over 2 gigs of RAM, run a 64bit OS...period, you'll have a much better utilization of your resources.

Unless you are planning to run programs that require it, avoid 64-bit OS. Sure it has advantages in theory, but in reality the driver support isn't there and it just becomes a big headache. I'd say exactly the same thing about Vista (32 or 64-bit) right now.

mexell · Post by **mexell** » Wed May 30, 2007 11:33 pm

Even if it's a recovery CD version you can make a full installation CD from it. Try googling that. Here in Germany it's legal if you purge the installation from your other computer.

If it's a normal version, you've got no trouble at all. Just delete it from the other computer and install on the new one.

It is very unlikely but it may happen that online activation doesn't work but then you just have to call a number given to you, speak first to a computer and then to some hotliner who will ask if you installed on multiple computers. Say "no, sir" and you will get the new activation key. That's the same procedure both for recovery and full versions.

I bought myself an E6420. It's cooler than the 6600, a newer revision and I was told that it overclocks far better. And it has got 4MB cache. It's also a lot cheaper than the 6600. OK, that's not pwned, but semi-pwned.

matt2020 · Post by **matt2020** » Fri Jun 01, 2007 5:24 am

If you want want quiet go for water cooled, can't beat it!

RAM - Consider DRAM 3, really fast, but a bit expensive.

Core 2 Duo E660 - Good choice for your application.

ASUS P5W DH DELUXE/WIFI-AP LGA 775 Intel 975X ATX Intel Motherboard - Yes good choice though you might consider something
that will take Quad core when they get real cheap.

XP - stiock to XP for the time being.

Gigabyte 7600 GS GPU - good choice here, cooler than some others.

Power supply - how much wattage do I need to run something like this reliably? 550? Will SeaSonic S12 Energy Plus SS-550HT be good, or can I get something cheaper/less wattage? - Greater wattage will run quieter
and cooler. 550 is ok 600watts a bit better.

-CPU fan - Scythe SCASM-1000 120mm Sleeve Andy Samurai Master CPU Cooler other suggestions that are somewhat inexpensive?

Newegg cart is currently at $858.

I'll be using a TBD firewire audio interface for sound, so I don't care about any onboard or other audio solutions.

Any help would be greatly appreciated. I'm worried that I'll end up buying some part that won't go with another because I didn't know something, so I'm really banking on you guys' (and gals?) expertise to sort this out and double check it for me!

Thanks a lot.

sgx · Post by **sgx** » Sat Jun 02, 2007 7:03 pm

matt2020 wrote:ASUS P5W DH DELUXE/WIFI-AP LGA 775 Intel 975X ATX Intel Motherboard - Yes good choice though you might consider something
that will take Quad core when they get real cheap.

Do you have suggestions for something that can?

filete · Post by **filete** » Sun Jun 03, 2007 5:03 pm

sgx wrote:
matt2020 wrote:ASUS P5W DH DELUXE/WIFI-AP LGA 775 Intel 975X ATX Intel Motherboard - Yes good choice though you might consider something
that will take Quad core when they get real cheap.
Do you have suggestions for something that can?

What are you saying?
Of course P5W works with Quad-Core...
http://www.asus.com/products.aspx?l1=3& ... odelmenu=1

sgx · Post by **sgx** » Sun Jun 03, 2007 6:48 pm

filete wrote:
sgx wrote:
matt2020 wrote:ASUS P5W DH DELUXE/WIFI-AP LGA 775 Intel 975X ATX Intel Motherboard - Yes good choice though you might consider something
that will take Quad core when they get real cheap.
Do you have suggestions for something that can?
What are you saying?
Of course P5W works with Quad-Core...
http://www.asus.com/products.aspx?l1=3& ... odelmenu=1

I thought it did too, but then I was assuming you guys knew better than I so I didn't go back to double check.

ronrem · Post by **ronrem** » Mon Jun 04, 2007 12:08 pm

sgx wrote:
~El~Jefe~ wrote:e4300.

learn how to overclock. it will be faster for gaming, audio, graphic art, and be more stable, have less voltage, less wattage and cost 150+ dollars less.

pwnd.

no need for more than that even if you DIDNT overclock it.

sad but true. 6600 is waste of money if you go intel. amd, on the other hand, get the ghz you want to be at.
You.....pwnd me. aaarrrgh

Why is everyone and their brother seem to be getting a 6600 then? I could overclock that too if I wanted to learn.

And that's the thing...I clearly do not know a whole lot...I'm not about to risk the life of my system by OCing when I don't know how. I don't really have the interest in learning either - I don't find building a PC interesting...just necessary.

I did some research and updated my first post so it lists more specific items. Please give me feedback. I understand my post was pretty vague before. Thanks!

The big appeal of a 6600 or up is for those die-hard gamers who spend $600 on dual vid cards and use the machine to shoot at monsters all night.

Real life.....What you do....folks did years ago on way less than the power of the cheapest Sempron sold currently. I've done a lot of audio work on an old P3 or a 1800 T-Bred.

Synth does demand a bit,but I'd probably put a 4000 Brisbane-undervolted on a Gigabyte mobo with 2 gb RAM, have a STRIPPED DOWN XP on an audio-only partition. A HD for software-and a HD for music ...maybe even a 3rd for working cache. Music files are MASSIVE relative to the text or jpegs people move about. The real bottleneck ain't so much the CPU as it is the HD's. You take a 100 mb file....mess with it and stick it somewhere.
On a HDD...the head can be doing read/writes in the OS...in Cubase or ?....at the music stash or the destination or working cache. The HDD head going back and forth-seeking-becomes your bottleneck. with that done by multiple drives---2 or 3 heads/platters do their stuff simultaneous and independant. Major speed boost.

3 drives DO make more noise.

However.....a 4000 Brisbane can be cooled by just a Ninja. Do a 250 mm Door fan at 400 rpm and you quietly have cooling for that,the drives,the passive vid card.

Over 2 gb of RAM....eh...not sure that you'd get much out of over 2 g in a 32 bit OS. Over 400 w PSU...no point....in fact 300 w is enough. Seasonic's 330 w is known as reliable and quite-so a good choice.

Are 3 HDD's or even 2 more noise? Of course....but you obtain some Galaxy eSATA enclosures and 6 ft cables and stow them further away,maybe in a box or something where there's some airflow but no direct soundpath

ronrem · Post by **ronrem** » Mon Jun 04, 2007 12:20 pm

Philosophically....El Jefe and I are opposite ends of the spectrum. He's the gamer-overclocker,I'm mainly audio-do no games and lean to the cooler low power CPU,would undervolt to get quieter but not overclock since I'd seldom push today's stock CPU to the max.

I still favor AMD,for less $ the Brisbanes have way more power than I need and there's a great selection of great-affordable mobos (love Gigabyte's M59 S 5....the got it all board).

Real world I think the lower end Brisbanes can perform with less fan rpms than the core 2's. The new single core Lima chips may be even better.

sgx · Post by **sgx** » Mon Jun 04, 2007 12:56 pm

ronrem wrote:The big appeal of a 6600 or up is for those die-hard gamers who spend $600 on dual vid cards and use the machine to shoot at monsters all night.

Real life.....What you do....folks did years ago on way less than the power of the cheapest Sempron sold currently. I've done a lot of audio work on an old P3 or a 1800 T-Bred.

Synth does demand a bit,but I'd probably put a 4000 Brisbane-undervolted on a Gigabyte mobo with 2 gb RAM, have a STRIPPED DOWN XP on an audio-only partition. A HD for software-and a HD for music ...maybe even a 3rd for working cache. Music files are MASSIVE relative to the text or jpegs people move about. The real bottleneck ain't so much the CPU as it is the HD's. You take a 100 mb file....mess with it and stick it somewhere.
On a HDD...the head can be doing read/writes in the OS...in Cubase or ?....at the music stash or the destination or working cache. The HDD head going back and forth-seeking-becomes your bottleneck. with that done by multiple drives---2 or 3 heads/platters do their stuff simultaneous and independant. Major speed boost.

3 drives DO make more noise.

However.....a 4000 Brisbane can be cooled by just a Ninja. Do a 250 mm Door fan at 400 rpm and you quietly have cooling for that,the drives,the passive vid card.

Over 2 gb of RAM....eh...not sure that you'd get much out of over 2 g in a 32 bit OS. Over 400 w PSU...no point....in fact 300 w is enough. Seasonic's 330 w is known as reliable and quite-so a good choice.

Are 3 HDD's or even 2 more noise? Of course....but you obtain some Galaxy eSATA enclosures and 6 ft cables and stow them further away,maybe in a box or something where there's some airflow but no direct soundpath

I don't do much recording - I do electronica/breaks/ambient stuff. I use A LOT of software synthesis and often over 100 effects units in a song. CPU power is totally the thing I need MOST of. I've been working on a Pentium M Centrino 1.86 GHZ (single core) for a couple years and I almost always hit the ceiling for CPU usage and have to start freezing tracks, but the little 5400RPM hard drive in it has only not been able to keep up a couple of times. I did use a second partition and a cut down install of XP for music.

I plan on having two hard drives in the computer.

www.sgxmusic.com if you want to hear my tracks

jackylman · Post by **jackylman** » Mon Jun 04, 2007 4:24 pm

Here's how I would build the system:

CPU - Core 2 Duo E6420 - $186

RAM - Geil 2 GB (2x1)Kit - ($74.99 after $25.00 Mail-In Rebate)

PSU - Seasonic S12-380 - $74

Mobo - GIGABYTE GA-965P-DS3 - $99.99

sgx · Post by **sgx** » Mon Jun 04, 2007 9:18 pm

Thanks jackylman

Hey guys, I'm thinking I want to go Micro ATX again....with the Antec NSK3300 case.

-What do you think about the power supply in there for my system?
-Can you recommend a quality MicroATX mobo that will be able to run quad core?

Will the smaller case create any cooling problems (smaller space)? I want that passive GPU in there..

so,

-Antec NSK3300
-CPU - Core 2 Duo E6420 - $186
-RAM - Geil 2 GB (2x1)Kit
-2 Hard drives (I have one right now, can you recommend a good brand for a second?)
- GIGABYTE GV-NX76G512P-RH GeForce 7600GS
-What mobo?

Is the PSU good for this system? Should I get a good CPU fan?

Thanks for all the advice, folks.

jessekopelman · Post by **jessekopelman** » Mon Jun 04, 2007 11:04 pm

If you can, try and get a NSK3400. The PSU in the NSK3400 should be slightly quieter than the one in the NSK3300. Meanwhile, it can be replaced with most ATX compatible PSU, which is not the case for the NSK3300 (unusual SFX PSU required). The cabling solution is also better for the NSK3400, especially if you want to use a larger heatsink.

Make sure you chose a motherboard with the CPU socket far from the edge of the board. There is a wall dividing the compartments of the NSK3300/3400 and it is only a few mm from the edge of the motherboard. For this case, the width of the CPU heatsink you can use will be determined by the distance from the socket to the edge -- all the best heatsinks are quite wide.

ronrem · Post by **ronrem** » Tue Jun 05, 2007 11:27 pm

Seasonic PSU's are quite efficient and conservatively rated. the 380's have done fine on rigs with heavy OC,RAID etc. You couldn't do power hungry vid cards in SLI however.

If you get the Samurai...then spend $15 to change fans,you may as well have got a bigger cooler in the first place.

A bigger case tends to be easier to cool...a 50 w lightbulb can heat up a shoebox pretty hot,can't heat up a phone booth if it's on all day.

sgx · Post by **sgx** » Wed Jun 06, 2007 9:32 am

jessekopelman wrote:If you can, try and get a NSK3400. The PSU in the NSK3400 should be slightly quieter than the one in the NSK3300. Meanwhile, it can be replaced with most ATX compatible PSU, which is not the case for the NSK3300 (unusual SFX PSU required). The cabling solution is also better for the NSK3400, especially if you want to use a larger heatsink.

Make sure you chose a motherboard with the CPU socket far from the edge of the board. There is a wall dividing the compartments of the NSK3300/3400 and it is only a few mm from the edge of the motherboard. For this case, the width of the CPU heatsink you can use will be determined by the distance from the socket to the edge -- all the best heatsinks are quite wide.

I can't find that case being sold in the US.