4TB of storage quietly?

Vaiski · Post by **Vaiski** » Wed Sep 05, 2007 4:40 am

Currently my fileserver is Coolermaster Stacker with 12 HDDs, noisy as hell but as it is in the kitchen corner that hasn't been a problem. Now however I'm moving into a one room apartment and I need a more quiet storage solution.

I've been thinking about 4x Seagate 1TB disks for storage, and one disk for system. So I need a quiet case where I can get some airflow for the disks, P182 is one, are there others?
Noise-wise the aim is to get it quiet enough so that I can sleep, say 3 metres away from it. Any thoughts?

nutball · Post by **nutball** » Wed Sep 05, 2007 6:54 am

P150/Solo are also decent options, though if you want to suspend more than three drives you're looking at using at No-vibes or similar. I have a seven drive system in a Solo -- it's audible across the room but it's an unobtrusive white-noise so maybe wouldn't be too hard to sleep through (depends on how well you sleep I guess

).

andyb · Post by **andyb** » Wed Sep 05, 2007 8:08 am

Vaiski can you give us some more info about your current setup, and have you identified whether the majority of the noise is due to the drives directly (noisy drives), drive caused noise (rattles and vibration), or fan noise.

I have been considering a stacker 810 with up to 12 HDD's as a file server, and have been wondering whether it can be made relatively quiet.

Andy

ddrueding1 · Post by **ddrueding1** » Wed Sep 05, 2007 9:12 am

(see sig)

I have the array spin down when not in use, that helps a lot. When the drives are needed, I'm streaming video or audio anyway. To get much quieter, you will need to insulate the drives and therefore be proactive with the cooling solution. Insulating and cooling many drives individually consumes a lot of space. I'm currently investigating home brew solutions for insulating/cooling a 'brick' of hard drives (4-6).

At first I was looking into watercooling, but that is simply too much work. I'm now looking into some custom work with the drives mounted to copper side plates and those attached to some custom heatpipe solution. That is as far as I've gotten.

Vaiski · Post by **Vaiski** » Wed Sep 05, 2007 9:29 am

andyb wrote:Vaiski can you give us some more info about your current setup, and have you identified whether the majority of the noise is due to the drives directly (noisy drives), drive caused noise (rattles and vibration), or fan noise.

I haven't done anything to make my server quieter, and consequently haven't really thought nor tested different solutions noise-wise. However, I'd say that in my current setup fan noise is the least of the problems.

I do have noisy drives, euros/gb ratio is what I looked at when adding disks, not their acoustics.

Vibration is also an issue because Stacker has flimsy side panels, so you'll definitely need to add some heavy material to the sides to make it quieter.

And you'll need to swap the fans of the 5.25" hdd-modules to quieter ones as well.

All in all, I'd say that it might be possible to get a 12 HDD Stacker setup relatively quiet, but it won't be easy. If possible, put the server in closet or basement and use it remotely. Or if that fails, less disks but bigger ones.

bonestonne · Post by **bonestonne** » Wed Sep 05, 2007 2:48 pm

modify the stacker....isn't each set of hard drive bays removable? you can just suspend them in a long chain using bungee cords and wall mounts.

look in the HDD suspension topic...i almost got a stacker until i saw just how big it was, and i looked a lot into how i could modify it. the stacker i had in mind was the 810, but it was much bigger than what i needed, so i went with the elite 330.

Lensman · Post by **Lensman** » Wed Sep 05, 2007 3:51 pm

I know you didn't ask for advice on the HDD's, but I'd recommend going with Hitachi 1TB drives. They're pretty quiet with acoustic management on. Once the Samsung F1 drives are out they're worth taking a look at reputationally plus because with three platters they might be quieter.

I'm really turned off of Seagate because of their extra noise.

coylh · Post by **coylh** » Thu Sep 06, 2007 5:01 pm

iSCSI. Put the disk box in a closet.

Vaiski · Post by **Vaiski** » Sat Sep 08, 2007 1:09 pm

I thought about an external box, but even the cheapest is much more expensive than P150 for instance. And I doubt that the low-end models perform as well as a complete system.

ntavlas · Post by **ntavlas** » Sat Sep 08, 2007 3:02 pm

I would take some time and experiment, with a little effort even your current chassis could work well with 5 drives. You have space for 2 12cm fans at the front. A little more than 24cm`s in height which should be enough for a stack of 5 drives enclosed or suspended. Suspending can minimize vibrations enclosing does a better job at reducing noise. Double sided tape can control rattles and interior dampening can soften the emmited sound.

Any set of decent low rpm fan will do the job. I doubt the fans will ever be the main noise source in a system with 5 3,5inch drives. I would go for the quietest drive possible though, even if it means making other compromises. I would avoid the seagate drives, probably wait for the samsung 3 platter ones. A total of 12 platters (for the storage part) sounds much better

Vaiski · Post by **Vaiski** » Sat Sep 08, 2007 6:14 pm

True, I could probably make Stacker quiet enough when it has only 5 drives.
However, I would like to get a bit smaller case, and I should be able to get P150 with the money I get from selling my Stacker.

andyb · Post by **andyb** » Mon Sep 10, 2007 5:17 am

I am still interested in the Stacker concept as a storage solution mostly because of inexpensive drives.

I have worked out that for the cost of 4x 1TB drives you can buy a stacker, and an entire PC (low end) to put into it and 12x 500GB drives - which is why I was interested, the problem of course is can the noise be managed.

It might never be possible for you as you will be so close to the machine in question.

Vaiski, a couple more questions if you please, can you tell me the make and model of the drives you are using, and if you dont mind taking of the side panel and pulling the power cables for all of the HDD fans to see if it sounds better, or if its just the drives that are causing the machine to sound "rattly".

Also I have never seen a stacker in person, can you tell me how the drives are attached to the 4-in-3 cages, are they on plastic sliders, are the screwed straight into metal brackets, are the 4-in-3's on sliders or is it metal-to-metal with the case.

Thanks Andy

autoboy · Post by **autoboy** » Mon Sep 10, 2007 9:59 am

Remember that google proved that rising drive temperatures do not cause additional HD failures between the temperatures of 35C-55C. Not much cooling is required to keep drive temperatures below 55C. The fans in this system should not be a contributer to overall system noise. I keep my server in my garage. 4 drives mounted on rubber grommets cooled by a single Antec Tri Cool on low keeps them below 55C even during the summer when it can get over 45C in the garage.

Vaiski · Post by **Vaiski** » Mon Sep 10, 2007 1:12 pm

andyb wrote:I am still interested in the Stacker concept as a storage solution mostly because of inexpensive drives.

I have worked out that for the cost of 4x 1TB drives you can buy a stacker, and an entire PC (low end) to put into it and 12x 500GB drives - which is why I was interested, the problem of course is can the noise be managed.

It might never be possible for you as you will be so close to the machine in question.

Vaiski, a couple more questions if you please, can you tell me the make and model of the drives you are using, and if you dont mind taking of the side panel and pulling the power cables for all of the HDD fans to see if it sounds better, or if its just the drives that are causing the machine to sound "rattly".

Also I have never seen a stacker in person, can you tell me how the drives are attached to the 4-in-3 cages, are they on plastic sliders, are the screwed straight into metal brackets, are the 4-in-3's on sliders or is it metal-to-metal with the case.

Thanks Andy

Yeah cost is high for 1TB drives, and I had to change my plans because of that as well.. I could've just about afforded it, but decided not to.
Now I have 7x500gb drives and 1x320gb.
I don't know yet whether I will switch to P182 or start making Stacker quieter.
As for the hdd experiment, atm I don't have any energy left because I just spent couple of hours reorganizing my files and disks.
Still I do think it's the drives themselves, because hdd cage does next to nothing for vibrations and side panels are flimsy. But that should be easy to fix by adding some bitumen to the sides.

Here you can see the hdd-cage pretty well. Drives are screwed into the cage, and the cage itself is on plastic sliders. HDD cage with rubber grommets would be nice, but perhaps bitumen will be enough to fix the rattling.

Wibla · Post by **Wibla** » Mon Sep 10, 2007 1:18 pm

If the side panels start to vibrate, you can really hear it.. i bet that some bitumen will help -alot-

I put in new fans in my Stacker.. Nexus and Noctua replacing the stock Coolermaster fans.. result: almost 0 fan noise, abit higher temps.

Chris Chan · Post by **Chris Chan** » Mon Sep 10, 2007 1:27 pm

Surprised nobody's suggested eSATA. Externalising the drives is the best noise-management scenario since then you don't have to worry about noise (stash them in a nearby closet) or thermals (externalising 4 HDDs removes about 40w from the setup).

KayDat · Post by **KayDat** » Mon Sep 10, 2007 6:17 pm

"Externalising" 4TB of HDD isn't exactly easy...

protellect · Post by **protellect** » Mon Sep 10, 2007 6:24 pm

"Externalising" 4TB of HDD isn't exactly easy...

Sure it is! You just need to spend a little money...

This isn't a plug, but if you're serious about that much storage, you might consider one of these;

http://www.coraid.com/products1.html

Not cheap, but you can fill it with cheap 500GB Disks and have one hell of a SAN. Great RAID-5 Performance.

4 disk version is 2Grand, and 1U.
15 disk version is 4 grand, and 3U.

Certainly a way of "externalizing" 4TB of hard drive space.

Has some of the easiest to use RAID array building/using tools I've ever seen.

Uses ATA over ethernet, which avoids the kernel level which is the slow downs for a NAS.

Run some cat-6 to your basement, gigabit switch upstairs, and have a dual LAN motherboard... one ethernet port for the san, the other for your normal traffic. It's fantastic.

Vaiski · Post by **Vaiski** » Mon Sep 10, 2007 7:34 pm

Putting something like in a basement is all fine and good, but as I mentioned in my first post I'll be moving into one room apartment, and that severely limits the options. Not that I'd have so much money to spend in any case. And money is the issue with eSata option as well because 1TB drives are touch too pricey for me yet.
Anyways I've now decided to sell my Stacker and get P182 when/if I found a buyer.

nick705 · Post by **nick705** » Tue Sep 11, 2007 12:38 am

andyb wrote: Also I have never seen a stacker in person, can you tell me how the drives are attached to the 4-in-3 cages, are they on plastic sliders, are the screwed straight into metal brackets, are the 4-in-3's on sliders or is it metal-to-metal with the case.

Thanks Andy

Andy, the 4-in-3 module has a main cage into which the drives are screwed directly (metal to metal contact). There are also two seperate side plates, and the main cage fits between them by means of rubber bushes, with plastic sliding drive rails on the outer faces of the side plates actually locating the whole assembly into the Stacker itself.

The overall width of the module (including the side plates) is the same as a standard 5.25" drive and, as the side plates also have screw holes in the standard positions, you can in theory put it into any case (not just a Stacker) which has three 5.25" bays free. However, most "normal" cases where 5.25" drives screw directly into the bays have supporting tabs under each drive which get in the way of the flat side plates (but you can normally bend them back out of the way quite easily).

There's about 5mm of airspace between the mounted drives - not a huge amount, but the 120mm fan seems well able to keep them cool (don't forget to knock out the stupid blanking plates between the fan and the HDDs). I've used the modules in Stackers and in cheap no-name cases, with a variety of drives, and temps hover around the low to mid thirties at most.

The CM 4-in-3 module is a quick, cheap and simple way of packing several HDDs into a small space, but it's *not* a particularly quiet solution - the rubber bushes are too hard to provide effective isolation, and the drives are hard-coupled to each other anyway which can lead to beating noises if you're unlucky. The 120mm CM fan at full speed is OKish but, again, you wouldn't really use it if quietness was your main priority.

If on the other hand you're considering a Stacker with multiple 4-in-3s as a remote server out of direct earshot (twelve drives are never going to be quiet anyway), it's a pretty good solution and actually not that expensive compared with many alternatives.

nick705 · Post by **nick705** » Tue Sep 11, 2007 1:46 am

Double post, sorry.

Bootay · Post by **Bootay** » Tue Oct 02, 2007 7:31 pm

I've got 3TB of drives in my server (in a P182 case) and have no issues with noise. I'm adding another 1TB tomorrow, 8x 500gb drives. It's $1000 just for the drives and case, but that's still a lot cheaper than 4 1TB drives and you get much better performance and available space from the RAID-10 that way...

ddrueding1 · Post by **ddrueding1** » Tue Oct 02, 2007 8:49 pm

I'm currently in the design phase of damping a "brick" of 8x750GB drives. I plan on using a backplane for the connectors and wrapping the whole thing in layers of foam and dynamat and suspending it.

The trick, of course, is to get the heat out somehow. Plan 1 is to clamp both sides with copper plates, and attach either waterblocks or heatpipe-based coolers to them.

Wibla · Post by **Wibla** » Wed Oct 03, 2007 1:15 am

I'm considering moving my 9x500+1x30GB setup to a P182 too, using the 6 normal drive mounts + a 4in3 with a nexus fan and a filter in front of it...

This is with Nexus fans for drives 0-3 and 8, and a noctua + 80mm on the back of the 4in3 for 4-7... the 80mm isnt audible outside the case with the panels closed, so its running on 12V, the other front fans + top fan is running at 7V and is basically quiet. Only source of noise from the case is actually the drives themselves.

The single WD 30GB I have as a system drive is louder on seeks than seeks and heavy disk activity on the raid5 with 8 drives, go figure

CyberDog · Post by **CyberDog** » Wed Oct 03, 2007 2:57 am

How about putting all drives in a big Alleycat style enclosure or similar like http://www.silentmods.com/section2/item285/ It would be quite a cheap solution. You don't have mill those sinks. Just by cheap second hand sinks somewhere or industrial scale sinks from electronic parts shops.

theycallmebruce · Post by **theycallmebruce** » Wed Oct 03, 2007 6:14 am

This isn't a plug, but if you're serious about that much storage, you might consider one of these;

http://www.coraid.com/products1.html

Not cheap, but you can fill it with cheap 500GB Disks and have one hell of a SAN. Great RAID-5 Performance.

Hm.. forgive my ignorance here, but what advantage does this have over using iSCSI? I'm thinking you could get iSCSI gear for the same price or cheaper, and it's a widely used standard.

protellect · Post by **protellect** » Wed Oct 03, 2007 7:59 am

theycallmebruce wrote:
This isn't a plug, but if you're serious about that much storage, you might consider one of these;

http://www.coraid.com/products1.html

Not cheap, but you can fill it with cheap 500GB Disks and have one hell of a SAN. Great RAID-5 Performance.
Hm.. forgive my ignorance here, but what advantage does this have over using iSCSI? I'm thinking you could get iSCSI gear for the same price or cheaper, and it's a widely used standard.

Show me

. I've only looked at the fibre-channel iscsi stuff, and you're looking to spend a lot more money than that to get it up and running.

I have one of these coraid servers at work for company storage, and frankly its the simpliest and most reliable piece of hardware I've used.
You can expand it with cheap sata disks [were using 500GB disks].

Adding a disk to the raid is literally two commands.

Solid Snake · Post by **Solid Snake** » Fri Oct 05, 2007 11:00 am

Sorry to say it, but such a project seems futile. The nice thing about a server is that you can pack it full of drives and hide it away in the darkest corner of your house. Most people don't sleep next to their servers if they can help it. Are you in a shared apartment where you cannot relocate this machine?

I sleep near my workstation, not my server though.

Workstation
=======================
Athlon64x2 4200+
2 x 2.5" 120GB Momentus in RAID1
1x120mm fan @650 RPM

Server
=======================
Original Slot A Athlon 750
4x3.5" PATA drives @ 1TB
2x60mm fan @4K RPM
1x80mm fan @2K RPM
1x120mm fan @3K RPM

As you can see, I haven't made any attempt to quiet the server, but it's two floors down, so I could care less.

Yes, I COULD try and quiet it, but that would mean hotter drive temps and potentially putting data at risk.

matt_garman · Post by **matt_garman** » Fri Oct 05, 2007 12:40 pm

Vaiski wrote:Currently my fileserver is Coolermaster Stacker with 12 HDDs, noisy as hell but as it is in the kitchen corner that hasn't been a problem. Now however I'm moving into a one room apartment and I need a more quiet storage solution.

I've been thinking about 4x Seagate 1TB disks for storage, and one disk for system. So I need a quiet case where I can get some airflow for the disks, P182 is one, are there others?
Noise-wise the aim is to get it quiet enough so that I can sleep, say 3 metres away from it. Any thoughts?

If you're not in a hurry, you can wait to see what I conclude on my on-going experiment involving quiet (or at least semi-quiet) file servers. See this thread. (Note that the graph has been updated since my last post, so it's not synced. I'm going to try and update this page with all the information about my experiment.)

Briefly, I'm in a similar situation as you: I previously had my fileserver in the Chenbro SR10769 case (newegg link). But I used to live in a house, and just had the fans on full blast, but with the server in the basement. Now I'm in an apartment and don't have a "spare" room where I can stick something loud.

I put nine drives in the Lian Li PC-A16; you can see the lovely work here. In this configuration, my server was fairly quiet, but my temps were plenty low, so I could have reduced the fan speed a bit.

I'm confident I could have tuned the PC-A16 to be comfortably quiet and cool-running. But in a demonstration of partial OCD, I decided that I need to put the drives in the Chenbro server case. I've been trying to keep the drives cool and quiet in a hot swap backplane. So far the results haven't been promising.

So if you're willing to wait, you can see where this experiment goes. Next on my list of things to try are this:

converting the case to positive pressure (with the hotswap backplane)
ditching the hotswap backplane to use the stock hdd bays

I have low expectations for the first, but I'm pretty sure the latter should yield as good or better performance than the cooler master stacker 4x3 enclosures. The standard (non hotswap) Chenbro SR107 drive bays have room for a 92mm fan in front.

I really like the Chenbro case. It's approximately the same width and height as a typical mid-tower case (e.g. P150/Solo), only much deeper (to accommodate extended ATX motherboards). But it's fairly versatile and built like a tank. It's extreme weight, while bad for your back, is great for damping sounds and vibrations.

elec999 · Post by **elec999** » Fri Oct 05, 2007 1:47 pm

I'm pretty sure if you get some Hitachi's in AAM mode. Get the P180 with some acoustic material to block the noise, and even some hard drive enclosure, like the scythe hard drive silencer you shouldn't be able to hear the noise. I would personally try to quiet your current 12x500 hard drive solution, since 4x1tb drives are expensive, and depending on the raid level you may not have full 4tb.
Thanks

4TB of storage quietly?

4TB of storage quietly?

Re: 4TB of storage quietly?