Proposed mod to SPCR Model 1: please advice

[quest_for_silence]

As any poster in this section, I'm looking for a new, quiet system, but it's still no time to show my components list.

First of all, I'd like to report two old quotes (at least just to show I'm quite a bit hanging around what SPCR said in the past) from MikeC.

[quote="MikeC posted on Wed Jan 07, 2004 11:15 am - Post subject: Does "Evacuate the heat" role for the PSU work?"]For quiet, effective cooling,

• A bottom-intake fan PSU should only be used if the overall heat in the system is low (let's just put a number here, shall we? say max 150W? maybe lower?)
• But with judicious case airflow management (including ducting), a 120mm fan in the PSU can perform very well as the ONLY fan in a lower heat PC.
• A quiet 80mm fan PSU + additional quiet rear exhaust case fans may still be the quieter solution, and cannot be beat for higher power systems.

[/quote]
Further:

Here's what I think about fanless PSUs:

1) The power ratings are almost meaningless because there's no way that cooling can be effective enough in real applications. Even on a standard test bench, I think fanless PSUs cannot meet their rated power for any meaningful length of time. A slow 80mm fan at even 6V moves far more air than convection alone can do -- unless the PSU is carefully engineered as a chimney style structure.

2) Conversely, the failure of a fanless PSU to deliver rated power is not that big a deal because few current systems actually draw anything more than 200~250W in DC, , but it is annoying that PSU makers keep playing the meaningless specs game. I would be much happier to see real specs -- rated at 50C. 250W at 50C would be enough for most systems especially if the 12V current can be decent -- say min 12A, 15A preferred.

3) A fanless PSU cannot be run in a fanless PC unless total system heat is very low, the ambient temp is modest (say under 25C) and the system is superbly designed to take advantage of convection cooling.

4) A medium or high power system can be run with a fanless PSU only if the case is custom-designed for fanless operation with that PSU. In a standard ATX case, there is simply no place for the heat from the PSU to go. Which means it stays in the case and cooks -- everything. The PSUs with external HS may fare a bit better, but it's all going against the thermal flow.

Well, back to present days.

Whith reference to the above quoted MikeC's assumptions, what do you think about eliminating one of the two fans of the carefully engineered EPCN/SPCR System 1?

Yes (if you take note of the previous MikeC quotes), I'm thinking about swapping its PSU (the very good and known "all around" Antec NeoHE) with which is probably the most well balanced and most efficient among the recommended fanless PSU, the Fortron Source Zen FSP300-60GNF (or its close cousin, the Silentmaxx Fanless 400W MX460-PFL01, which may worth a better termal management as for temp. rise).

So, basically, to exhaust the hot air from the case I will have to rely upon only the 120mm case fan, which could even be the standard Antec TriCool (I'd like to give it a try as I don't know it - maybe it will be enough quiet to me - and as it comes for free), or maybe the recommended Noctua or Scythe S-Flex in order to increase the airflow (if needed).

Well, I mean that the most practical consequence - while dealing with a fanless PSU - it is that I have to face an increase in heat in the system, which I'd try to address carefully choosing the other components (as an example:, no discrete videocard, I would run an IGP motherboard).

To eventually show the proposed rig (now I know what this word stands for), this is my initial thought:

case: Antec Solo
psu: Fortron Zen (see above);
fan: 1 x 120mm Antec Tricool on mid or low setting (see above);
mobo: Gigabyte GA-G33-DS3R (a 14.5w X3100 IGP model, and moreover it's a "ultra durable 2" model, so I mean it should run cooler and more reliably, as for its features);
cpu: Intel Allendale M0 stepping (E4500 or E4600, undervolted as low as possible);
ram: 2 x 1Gb DDR2 sticks (whatever speed, no overvolt, no overclock);
hdd: 2 x 2,5" 160Gb 5400rpm SATA enclosed in two Scythe QuietDrive 2,5 and then suspended (Samsung, Toshiba, or which one I can found at the lowest price);
dvd-rw: some SATA unit, maybe an ASUS one: as it could be mounted in the Solo's floppy bay (have to check), a Scythe Kama Bay inlet air filter will be mounted in top three 5,25" bays as in Chris Thomson's Superquiet Superclocked DIY Core 2 Duo System. Even an eSATA unit could be considered.

All other "details" as seen on the EPCN/SPCR System 1 (well, I'd rather Thermalright over the Ninja, but it doesn't worth right now).

What do you think about it?
Have I missed some point?
Could it work flawlessly (ambient temperature is around 18° C in winter, around 30° in summer)?
Could it work 24/7?
Should I rather an AM2 IGP combo (as an example, an Abit AN-M2 with AMD BE-2350 or BE 2400, as in ryboto's quiet Lian Li) in order to lower the power consumption at idle (and heat production)?

Any further suggest will be very much appreciated, thank you so much in advance.

Luca

[quest_for_silence]

Any further suggest will be very much appreciated, thank you so much in advance.

So, no one all over the SPCR community want to advice me on the proposed setup?

Maybe mine it's a silly question, or too many times already discussed, this idea of a one-fan-rig. Or maybe I've just badly exposed it...

Well, thanks for at least having read it (I see 141 people read my request, up to now: not such a few people, I mean).

Luca

[djkest]

what about a pico-psu?

[Plissken]

I think MikeC's rule #4 says it all. If you system isn't designed around a fanless PSU, it's not a good idea. Besides, your Tri-Cool (which you claim may be quiet enough, for you) will make more noise than the fan inside a Corsair or Seasonic PSU.
I don't see how a fanless PSU in a Solo (with only one stock fan in the default location) will work, without major modifications.

[Aris]

can you hear the system the way it is now?

I dont know about you, but i cant hear a 7volted 120mm nexus at the rear exhaust fan location from a seated position in front of the monitor even with the computer sitting on the desk next to the monitor.

So why would you want to try and eliminate fans you cant hear?


If your system can be powered with using just a pico psu and an external ac/dc brick, then you could probably get away with completely fanless with some agressive heatsinks on heat producing elements, like northbridge, vga, cpu, motherboard mosfets, and possibly hard drives if your using 3.5" drives instead of 2.5" drives.

But that would mean your total load power draw is around 100w or less, and your putting the heat generated from the PSU outside the case by using an AC/DC converter inistead of a standard atx psu.

[quest_for_silence]

what about a pico-psu?

At first sight, it doesn't convince me (maybe I'm biased as for the resulting system's aesthetic appearance).
It's just right-sized as for DC power output, or at least I mean it heavily depends on the power brick of choice, it may require some manual mod, and I'm afraid it leaves no room for future upgrades or experiment.
With reference to all this aspects, maybe it could be worthwhile to also give a look to the evolution of ryboto's quiet Lian Li.

Even if, about heat production, it seems to me that it should be a real advance over any internal fanless ATX PSU.

Luca

[Bluefront]

Luca.....your big problem here is that you are trying to buck standard SPCR thinking, which pretty much says there is only one way to have a quiet/silent computer....the SPCR way.

I've never bought into that way of thinking. MikeC and his work has to follow certain paths, using standard parts, using a minimum of DIY concepts. When he says you have to design a setup around a fanless PSU, he is partially correct. But the setup doesn't require as much DIY as he suggests.

I have three almost silent computers using fanless Fortron PSUs. Two are in Gateway computer cases, and one is in an Antec 4400. The main difference between my setups and a std SPCR setup is that I am running on positive pressure. When you do it this way, the heat from the fanless PSU is not sucked back into the case......it works. For a silent computer I'd put this computer against anything out there.





The rear case fan blows inward. There's a duct that separates the airflow so the Zen gets ambient air for cooling. There are no exhaust fans...the heated air goes out some top vents (hard to see). The Zen runs cool, and so does the CPU. The one major mod to this case involves mounting the Zen partially outside the case.....not very difficult. Doing so gives a convection assisted airflow path upward and out through the top vents.

No SPCR thinking here, but it still works fantastic. IMHO.

[quest_for_silence]

So why would you want to try and eliminate fans you cant hear?

Maybe I've not written it plainly enough: I don't want to eliminate a rear exhaust fan, such as your Nexus: SPCR Model One has an Antec Neo HE PSU which sports a 8cm rear exhaust fan which is incidentally more audible than a 12cm Nexus/Yate Loon or similar case fan. This is the only feature I'd try to change.
So, it seemed to me that there should be two option: a 12cm internal fan, as in most current recommended fanned PSU, or going passive with a fanless PSU (PicoPSU-style or ATX).
But the first option seems not reasonable, as up to 150w DC output most 12cm medium power PSU are simply not really better than the Neo HE, with the possible exceptions - maybe - of the old SS12-430 (moreover now I mean out of production) and of an overkilling SS12-550E+:

Code: Select all

Model        Output (W)  65      90      150     200     250 
        
Antec NeoHE 430         
 Efficiency             75.5%   76.2%   79.0%   77.8%   77.2%
 Temp Rise (°C)           5       6       5       5       4
 Noise (dBA@1m)          20      20      21      26      31
Corsair VX450W
 Efficiency             79.1%   80.1%   82.6%   84.8%   83.3%
 Temp Rise (°C)           4       7       9      11      14
 Noise (dBA@1m)          21      21      21      21      22
Seasonic S12-430
 Efficiency             78.3%   80.5%   81.6%   81.8%   80.5%
 Temp Rise (°C)           3       4       5       5       7
 Noise (dBA@1m)          19      19      21      24      28
Seasonic S12II-380
 Efficiency             79.4%   81.5%   82.1%   84.0%   83.4%
 Temp Rise (°C)           4       7       9      11      14
 Noise (dBA@1m)          21      21      21      21      25
Seasonic S12-550E+
 Efficiency             74.7%   78.6%   81.9%   84.8%   84.3%
 Temp Rise (°C)           2       3       5       8      12
 Noise (dBA@1m)          20      20      20      20      21

So I woud like to explore the fanless side of the game.

But that would mean your total load power draw is around 100w or less, and your putting the heat generated from the PSU outside the case by using an AC/DC converter inistead of a standard atx psu.

The goal in power draw is somewhat similar to what the Tech Report showed this summer reviewing an Intel E4300/965G combo (about 65w@idle and 90w on load w/IGP), but with some possible further advantages: the use of a G33 chipset (a 14w bonus according to Intel, over the 965G), the maximum CPU undervolting allowable, the use of notebook drives, the use of a technology (Ultra Durable 2) that I hope will perform more reliably in a hotter environment than SPCR Model One.
Some reasons while I'd rather a Zen to an external PSU are those I've right now tried to expose in my previous brief post.

Luca

[Felger Carbon]

So I woud like to explore the fanless side of the game.

It's your money and your computer. You can do anything you want with it. Explore away! I have, and here's what I discovered:

The easiest way to arrive at a quiet computer is to have low total power consumption at the wall socket. That way the cooling fans can run very slowly. Very slow cooling fans are very quiet.

Based on the above, my quiet computers take two diametrically opposite paths, and both work for me:

1. Use a minitower case such as the Evercase E3505B. Use a cheap 300W InWin PSU with a 120mm fan. Remove the PSU fan and throw it away. Substitute a very slow-turning 120mm fan, and place a duplicate on the exhaust port inches away. That's two very low RPM 120mm fans. Now use a Ninja snuggled up against those two fans. Get serious about HDD noise.

2. Use a big-fan mid-tower case. Use the "Works Power" 220mm fan, and run it at 3.3 to 3.5V. Use the same PSU as in step 1. Remove and throw away the PSU fan. Do not replace that fan; cooling air will be provided by the big fan. Likewise, don't use an exhaust fan. However, now you need to cool the CPU with a good heatsink and a slow fan. Get serious about HDD noise.

Both approaches work for me. You may find something entirely different works for you. But if you ask for advice around here, you'll get it! I offer the above info not as advice, but as an example of how departing from SPCR accepted procedures can successfully produce a very quiet computer.

Naturally, I won't tell you about all the things I tried that didn't work out. Don't expect the first thing you try to work out. It most likely won't.

Bottom line: you are entitled to ignore SPCR common practices, but you have to accept responsibility for your decisions... as Bluefront and I have. The best of luck, and welcome to the club!

[quest_for_silence]

I think MikeC's rule #4 says it all. If you system isn't designed around a fanless PSU, it's not a good idea. Besides, your Tri-Cool (which you claim may be quiet enough, for you) will make more noise than the fan inside a Corsair or Seasonic PSU.

Well, one the most important resource I've meant to explot while dealing with a fanless ATX PSU is to follow the dicto "to not have all cooked by heat, first you have to not produce (too much) heat". Or, to say different, I've tried to work out a setup which aims to be much less power hungry than a 2004's high power system (which is not able to run with a fanless PSU, in those savvy MikeC words).

About the TriCool, I just want to make a try: as stated, Noctua and Nexus are my "champions", and both should run quieter than any 12cm fanned stock PSU.

Moreover, with reference to the first MikeC's quote, in the SPCR Model One, the PSU doesn't seem to me having a (major) role in evacuating system heat: with a Seasonic (or a Corsair) PSU we have to deal with a large bottom internal fan, not with a small rear external fan, so at first sight it doesn't mean to me I could plainly swap a Neo HE 430 with a VX450, or similar PSU, in a SPCR Model One system (I mean it coudn't run with only one more fan as in Model One).

I don't see how a fanless PSU in a Solo (with only one stock fan in the default location) will work, without major modifications.

May you kindly guess any idea about any possible modification?

Maybe a second duct from the bottom plate of the Zen to the rear exhaust fan?

Anyway, please let me be aware if you mind that dealing with such a proposed system, which aims at 50-60w(idle)/80-90w(load) in AC power consumption, if it doesn't influence the fundamental parameters of the scenario (just for comparison purposes, the original Model One drew from the wallet 100-150w, similar MikeC's Torrid Thailand quiet system drew 100-190w, and that the Antec Neo HE 430 has an efficiency of about 76% at 90w DC, while the Zen tops at 83% at the same power level).

Luca

[quest_for_silence]

Luca.....

Thank you so much for your help: time is running out to me, so I'll answer in a more detailed and polite way later (maybe even next week). Thank you again very much, Bluefront.

Luca

[quest_for_silence]

as Bluefront and I have. The best of luck, and welcome to the club!

As said to Bluefront, thank you so much for your help, Felger.
And as already said, I'll be very glad to discuss your remarks later (maybe even next week). Thanks again!

Luca

[ryboto]

I agree with Bluefront, if you want a passive power supply, the best cooling arrangement is positive pressure. I've got that setup using the system in my sig. It only needed 2 fans, though they're spinning around 900rpm, not exactly "silent", but below the ambient noise level in my room.

[WR304]

An Antec Solo case will definitely work fine with a semi-fanless PSU and a single exhaust fan.

The semi-fanless PSU is the safest option as it means there is a fan there if you need it.

It should be ok with a fanless PSU too although you may want to do some mods as pictured here:

viewtopic.php?t=39939


Vidicio's Modded Antec Solo Case

[Plissken]

I don't see how a fanless PSU in a Solo (with only one stock fan in the default location) will work, without major modifications.

May you kindly guess any idea about any possible modification?

I was thinking positive pressure, like everyone else Duct and divert the flow such that everything gets some air, with some going out thru the PSU, and some going out across the hard drives. Gonna be tough to do with only one 120mm fan.

It's not a practical or cost-effective solution, unless your home is filled with bird dander (right, BF? ) But if you are doing it for the fun of it, and for experimentation, give it a shot and have fun

[quest_for_silence]

Luca.....your big problem here is that you are trying to buck standard SPCR thinking, which pretty much says there is only one way to have a quiet/silent computer....the SPCR way.

Bluefront, first of all thanks a lot, your works have always been a great source of ideas to me.

So said, maybe I don't really want to buck SPCR thinking, just to achieve a different trade off. SPCR model One is a carefully designed all-around sytem, which sports an external graphics card, which's able to perform any task in near any environment, and which has two major sources of noice: the PSU and the exhaust fan. So, while I'd like to eliminate one of the two sources, giving up something as performances, I'm feeling not so far from the SPCR territory.

When you do it this way, the heat from the fanless PSU is not sucked back into the case......it works. For a silent computer I'd put this computer against anything out there.

But your systems also sports more than one fan: on your Blue One I'm currently seeing two external fans and a spot one inside the case (plus the bottom wooden tank...). I'm sure it's silent as you claim, but my first aim is just to reduce the number of noise' source, not noise at all.

The one major mod to this case involves mounting the Zen partially outside the case.....not very difficult. Doing so gives a convection assisted airflow path upward and out through the top vents.

Do you think that with two ducts, one on the back like your one, and one on the front as in MikeC systems, I can think to mount the Zen canonically (in a hypothetical positive-pressure system with only one fan blowing inward)?

Anyway (and again), thanks a lot for everything!

Luca

[quest_for_silence]

An Antec Solo case will definitely work fine with a semi-fanless PSU and a single exhaust fan.

I'd rather to avoid semi-fanless PSUs as the only one I know which's recommended by SPCR - the Antec Phantom - it has a *huge* failure rate, especially when used in not properly ventilated cases (I mean: no fan blowing on it -> high risk of failure).

Luca

[quest_for_silence]

The easiest way to arrive at a quiet computer is to have low total power consumption at the wall socket. That way the cooling fans can run very slowly. Very slow cooling fans are very quiet.

As maybe my component list may suggests, I TOTALLY agree.

2. Use a big-fan mid-tower case. Use the "Works Power" 220mm fan, and run it at 3.3 to 3.5V. Use the same PSU as in step 1. Remove and throw away the PSU fan. Do not replace that fan; cooling air will be provided by the big fan. Likewise, don't use an exhaust fan. However, now you need to cool the CPU with a good heatsink and a slow fan. Get serious about HDD noise.

Still it has 2 noise sources: anyway it still interests me, as I understand the big fan (which models are currently available? And what about side panels?) blows inward, so I can dream eliminating even the HSF, maybe in a very "open" case.

Bottom line: you are entitled to ignore SPCR common practices, but you have to accept responsibility for your decisions... as Bluefront and I have. The best of luck, and welcome to the club!

Thank you so much, sir!

Luca

[Bluefront]

First off I do have to filter all my intake fans. And I found it is extremely difficult to keep a moderately hot-running system sufficiently cooled at all the important places using only one quiet fan, and if you are using 3.5" drives they will run hot with only one fan.

The model "Blue One" in the photos has the second intake fan on the bottom, drawing it's intake air through that large wooden structure......which is actually an acoustic muffler. This second fan is completely inaudable. It is responsible for cooling the single hard drive, the video card, and the South Bridge chip.

The one spot fan visible in the photos, cools the memory and the Winbond chip, which measures the System temperature, and always ran hot due to it's location at the upper right edge of the board. So yes I'm running three fans total, but every part of that system gets airflow, and runs cool.

Now with some systems without a hot video card using 2.5" drives can run cool with only one fan.......not easy however. I do not like to cook components for the sake of a few db, or an extra fan.

Here's what the rear intake filter setup looks like (for now). This thing also muffles the intake noise quite a bit. There are no intake or exhaust openings at the front of this case, which is another rule I follow to keep down the noise.

[jaganath]

Here's what the rear intake filter setup looks like

is that a car filter? what model vehicle is it from?

[Bluefront]

The whole story on the Spectre filter. I think this thing has more surface area than any other filter I ever tried. And it muffles the intake sound quite a bit to boot.

[quest_for_silence]

I do not like to cook components for the sake of a few db, or an extra fan.

And so I am: if there will be any serious issue as for reliability, I won't mind for having only one fan (either a std. 120mm one or a Felger's style big fan) and go for (at least) two (either in a positive pressure system or in a negative pressure one).

Thank you again so much.

Luca

[Aris]

While i have much respect for bluefront, and i'm sure his systems are quiet. I'm just a little anul retentive when it comes to cosmetics, having a proffesional look, and possible transportability. Most of his systems are huge, have extruding fans and ducts all over the place with makeshift wooden boxes abound. I wouldnt ever want to lug any of that to a friends house for a lan party.

But to each his own. We all have our own priority lists that we follow in our quests for silence. I think people over think the issue's a bit too much. I try to follow the rules of KISS as much as possible. Low total power draw, and the fewest moving parts, of which move as slowly as i can get them have worked for me. I never have a system anymore with more than 3 fans in it, including the psu fan, of which never spin faster than 800rpm (usually closer to 500rpm) and my total system power draws are never more than 150w load, usually under 100w. Ive been contemplating tackling a 200w system, but that would be the absolute highest power draw i would ever think about running. (C2D w/ 8800GTS)