Hi guys,
I'm thinking of building or acquiring a server. The application I am thinking of will require at least a bit of power, so a D201GLY and the like isn't going to cut it.
So far I figure I have two options, either getting a used server (or server parts) off ebay (such as id 140173031131, sorry my ebay links never work) which is clearly overkill, but a lot of bang for my buck if I am patient, or getting this this cheap mATX board and an 80$ E2140 (or maybe a $40 celeron 420) and throwing the 1 GB 667 MHz ram stick I have lying around on it and using parts I have lying around to build this. I have a 250 watt psu, some 2.5 in IDE HDDs that I'd probably use.
The reason I am even looking at servers is that in the end, the costs are going to be similar.
I guess the question really is are server type parts really worth it for a 24/7 high use, but lowish reliability required situation?
Is ECC RAM justified in this (or any) situation?
Server Dilemma
Moderators: NeilBlanchard, Ralf Hutter, sthayashi, Lawrence Lee
depending on what app(s) you are running, getting a "server" box may or may not be the best option.
Do you need cpu power? big disk? ... both?
but let me relate my own experiences.
back in 2001 i purchased a dual cpu xeon system (supermicro p4dc6+). the initial outlay was not cheap -- about $3k. But almost 7 years later the thing just wont quit. It wont break down so i have an excuse to upgrade :/
The dual cpu with HT turned on runs just about anything i throw at it (except games). But looking back the one single thing that keeps it running well is the scsi drives I invested in. The board came with an onboard scsi controller, so all i needed was to buy the drives. they are designed for continuous operation and with adequate cooling, they will run past their 5 year manufacturer warranty.
The only real limiting factor has been the RAM. it uses RDRAM and only holds a max of 2gb.
IMO the "server-type" parts are mainly for 24/7 operation where an application cannot afford to crash, -- ever -- thus hot-swap and redundant stuff is put in.. and for a premium price.
A good efficent PS thats slightly larger than your sytem draw will work fine. Then add in a reliable motherboard + cpu, nicely ventalited case and away you go. The key to a long lasting system is to keep the stuff running cool.
As for overkill? whats overkill now will be adequate in the near future, and not quite good enough in the further future. So plan accordingly
Do you need cpu power? big disk? ... both?
but let me relate my own experiences.
back in 2001 i purchased a dual cpu xeon system (supermicro p4dc6+). the initial outlay was not cheap -- about $3k. But almost 7 years later the thing just wont quit. It wont break down so i have an excuse to upgrade :/
The dual cpu with HT turned on runs just about anything i throw at it (except games). But looking back the one single thing that keeps it running well is the scsi drives I invested in. The board came with an onboard scsi controller, so all i needed was to buy the drives. they are designed for continuous operation and with adequate cooling, they will run past their 5 year manufacturer warranty.
The only real limiting factor has been the RAM. it uses RDRAM and only holds a max of 2gb.
IMO the "server-type" parts are mainly for 24/7 operation where an application cannot afford to crash, -- ever -- thus hot-swap and redundant stuff is put in.. and for a premium price.
A good efficent PS thats slightly larger than your sytem draw will work fine. Then add in a reliable motherboard + cpu, nicely ventalited case and away you go. The key to a long lasting system is to keep the stuff running cool.
As for overkill? whats overkill now will be adequate in the near future, and not quite good enough in the further future. So plan accordingly
You really don't supply enough information to give a considered response. If you just want to serve MP3's to your stereo the Celeron would probably be plenty. You want to manage a 2 Terbyte database for 100 users a old retread dual Xeon may not be enough.
The intended application will determine what hardware is needed. With such vague info I'de vote for the Xeon just because it will probably be closer to handling what is needed, even if it is more than required.
The intended application will determine what hardware is needed. With such vague info I'de vote for the Xeon just because it will probably be closer to handling what is needed, even if it is more than required.
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bonestonne
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if you want a not-so high end server that can still crunch some numbers in today's standards, look into Intel Pentium III Xeons. i have a Supermicro S2DGU with flashed BIOS to the most recent public release, and i've got a pair of Pentium III Xeons, 700Mhz 100mhz bus speed and 2Mb L2 Cache per CPU. i'll have to look up the exact model of the CPUs, but they only cost me $30 just this past april i want to say.
yes, they're Slot 2 SECC processors, but they're very fast for what they are, and i run Windows XP on it. i've got 640Mb SD RAM in it that's fully utilized by the rig, but another 512MB that's not recognized by Windows or BIOS, but it's seen by Speedfan.
for a 9 year old rig, its pretty good in today's standards. it would be enough for you, i'm almost sure of it.
if you want a brand new server, don't even think about it, even a low end or barebone is > $1000. look on ebay for PIII servers, even dual coppermine setups will run great.
yes, they're Slot 2 SECC processors, but they're very fast for what they are, and i run Windows XP on it. i've got 640Mb SD RAM in it that's fully utilized by the rig, but another 512MB that's not recognized by Windows or BIOS, but it's seen by Speedfan.
for a 9 year old rig, its pretty good in today's standards. it would be enough for you, i'm almost sure of it.
if you want a brand new server, don't even think about it, even a low end or barebone is > $1000. look on ebay for PIII servers, even dual coppermine setups will run great.
Re: Server Dilemma
If availability is not key, i.e. you are not loosing money when your server is down, then no, server type parts are not worth it.Blue_Sky wrote:I guess the question really is are server type parts really worth it for a 24/7 high use, but lowish reliability required situation?
Is ECC RAM justified in this (or any) situation?
On the oposite, for example your business stops when the server goes down, then yes, they are totally worth it. The ECC RAM for example will usually give you indication of a failure to come, protecting you from unplanned server crashes (this is a fact I experienced more than once).
In other words, if it is for private use it is not needed. For business it is well worth the money.
Gundy.
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tibetan mod king
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If your machine is going to be on 24x7 then you need a machine designed to be on 24x7. Unless your 2.5" drives are "E" series Hitachi drives, they are not designed for 24x7. Even the cheapest Dell server includes server rated drives, not consumer drives.
Personally, I would wait for a Dell sale and snap up one of their "value leader" boxes. It is a real server that is built very well including full RFI treatment.
For example, for $499 today you can get the following PowerEdge SC440 box:
Dual Core Intel® Pentium®E2160, 1.8GHz, 1MB Cache, 800MHz FSB
1GB DDR2, 667MHz, 2X512MB Single Ranked DIMMs
On-Board Single Gigabit Network Adapter
250GB 7.2K RPM Serial ATA 3Gbps 3.5-in Cabled Hard Drive, Primary
250GB 7.2K RPM Serial ATA 3Gbps 3.5-in Cabled Hard Drive, Additional
48X CD-ROM Drive
1Yr BASIC SUPPORT: 5x10 HW-Only, 5x10 NBD Onsite
Everything in this machine, outside of the CD-ROM, is designed for 24x7 use. The drives are usually Western Digital RAID edition drives.
If you want a DVD-ROM drive instead of a CD-ROM, buy one yourself and swap it vs. paying Dell for one. I did that for one of my Dell boxes and saved about $80.
In the case you don't mind using a bit more electricity often there is a machine with two 160GB drives and a Pentium D 935 processor available for $399 vs. $499. This is a heck of a lot of machine for $399 including a one year on-site warranty.
Regarding ECC memory, yes, ECC is absolutely critical for a machine that is on 24x7 and handles data that you care about. If you write anything to the disk and do not have ECC, you will build up bad data over time. This is because statistically you have a certain number of bit errors in your RAM that WILL occur over time. Without ECC, these bit errors cannot be fixed on the fly nor will they be detected. You will simply find some of your files are corrupt/damaged. If your "server" is not working with data you care about and you don't mind the occasional reboot/hang, then non-ECC RAM is fine.
If you are a tweaker and love to do the eBay thing, a Pentium III system can be had for incredibly cheap on eBay. I picked up a 1U Dual Pentium III server with 256MB ECC RAM, Adaptec SCSI RAID 1, dual 10/100 Ethernet, two hot swap 18GB SCSI drives, CD-ROM and floppy for $50 recently. Upgrading this machine with more RAM, more drives, etc., is very cheap as well. This is a valid option, but still IMHO does not offer as good a value as an on sale "value leader" Dell box. That said, a dual Pentium III offers plenty of power for most things other than video encoding/decoding and large databases.
Personally, I would wait for a Dell sale and snap up one of their "value leader" boxes. It is a real server that is built very well including full RFI treatment.
For example, for $499 today you can get the following PowerEdge SC440 box:
Dual Core Intel® Pentium®E2160, 1.8GHz, 1MB Cache, 800MHz FSB
1GB DDR2, 667MHz, 2X512MB Single Ranked DIMMs
On-Board Single Gigabit Network Adapter
250GB 7.2K RPM Serial ATA 3Gbps 3.5-in Cabled Hard Drive, Primary
250GB 7.2K RPM Serial ATA 3Gbps 3.5-in Cabled Hard Drive, Additional
48X CD-ROM Drive
1Yr BASIC SUPPORT: 5x10 HW-Only, 5x10 NBD Onsite
Everything in this machine, outside of the CD-ROM, is designed for 24x7 use. The drives are usually Western Digital RAID edition drives.
If you want a DVD-ROM drive instead of a CD-ROM, buy one yourself and swap it vs. paying Dell for one. I did that for one of my Dell boxes and saved about $80.
In the case you don't mind using a bit more electricity often there is a machine with two 160GB drives and a Pentium D 935 processor available for $399 vs. $499. This is a heck of a lot of machine for $399 including a one year on-site warranty.
Regarding ECC memory, yes, ECC is absolutely critical for a machine that is on 24x7 and handles data that you care about. If you write anything to the disk and do not have ECC, you will build up bad data over time. This is because statistically you have a certain number of bit errors in your RAM that WILL occur over time. Without ECC, these bit errors cannot be fixed on the fly nor will they be detected. You will simply find some of your files are corrupt/damaged. If your "server" is not working with data you care about and you don't mind the occasional reboot/hang, then non-ECC RAM is fine.
If you are a tweaker and love to do the eBay thing, a Pentium III system can be had for incredibly cheap on eBay. I picked up a 1U Dual Pentium III server with 256MB ECC RAM, Adaptec SCSI RAID 1, dual 10/100 Ethernet, two hot swap 18GB SCSI drives, CD-ROM and floppy for $50 recently. Upgrading this machine with more RAM, more drives, etc., is very cheap as well. This is a valid option, but still IMHO does not offer as good a value as an on sale "value leader" Dell box. That said, a dual Pentium III offers plenty of power for most things other than video encoding/decoding and large databases.
The server won't be serving anything business related. I'm planning on using it for a small (actually very small to start with) community website plus anything else I can figure out how to do (I'm new to the software/linux side of things).
Data integrity means something to me, but in the end it is not going to make much of a difference. I can afford downtime, at least as far as I can see now.
My goal is that it will require the least amount of maintenance per unit time (preferably over a 5-15 year lifetime). Hope that fleshes out my question a bit.
Data integrity means something to me, but in the end it is not going to make much of a difference. I can afford downtime, at least as far as I can see now.
My goal is that it will require the least amount of maintenance per unit time (preferably over a 5-15 year lifetime). Hope that fleshes out my question a bit.
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tibetan mod king
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If you are looking at a 5-15 year service lifetime for this machine, I would get a newer machine. While it may still be possible to track down parts for Pentium III boxes, it may take more time and energy than you are willing to invest. The same goes with drivers that will likely be phased out/discontinued/etc.
Also, with the projected lifespan of the machine, I would focus on a box that uses a very low power processor so that electricity usage (which will increase greatly in cost over 5-15 years) is minimized.
Based on these factors, I would personally look at various "on sale" Dell boxes and pick one that fits your needs. A Dell machine is a known configuration and is tested by many companies for Linux compatibility. For example, you will find a number of Dell machines on HCLs -- Astaro, Red Hat, SUSE, Ubuntu, etc. This is a nice thing, especially in the Linux world, when you want to focus on learning Linux, not learning how/why Linux does not work with your hardware.
Keep in mind that my perspective is that of an older person, where saving a lot of time has become much more valuable than saving a little money. Of course YMMV.
Also, with the projected lifespan of the machine, I would focus on a box that uses a very low power processor so that electricity usage (which will increase greatly in cost over 5-15 years) is minimized.
Based on these factors, I would personally look at various "on sale" Dell boxes and pick one that fits your needs. A Dell machine is a known configuration and is tested by many companies for Linux compatibility. For example, you will find a number of Dell machines on HCLs -- Astaro, Red Hat, SUSE, Ubuntu, etc. This is a nice thing, especially in the Linux world, when you want to focus on learning Linux, not learning how/why Linux does not work with your hardware.
Keep in mind that my perspective is that of an older person, where saving a lot of time has become much more valuable than saving a little money. Of course YMMV.
There are a lot of hosting providers delivering a lot of cpu power, storage etc. for almost no money at all. Maybe it is a good idea to start in a shared hosting environment. When you need more performance you can always buy a new box from dell or something like that.
Buying expensive hardware to let it do nothing for the first year looks like a waste of energy and money if you ask me.
And you can always fix an el-cheapo configuration to toy with linux and test whatever you want, and let the final product run in the shared hosting environment.
Buying expensive hardware to let it do nothing for the first year looks like a waste of energy and money if you ask me.
And you can always fix an el-cheapo configuration to toy with linux and test whatever you want, and let the final product run in the shared hosting environment.
Ok, so the hosting route sounds like the logical idea. If I was to build something that I wanted running 24/7 (let's assume for primarily for server related uses ... I know kind of ambiguous) what kind of parts should I be looking for?
Will I be able to build something particularly reliable out of desktop or MoDT parts? Should I look at server HDDs?
I guess this question now boils down to what parts are most likely fail, based on value. I'd much prefer to replace the processor every couple of years rather than have to buy a couple hundred dollars of HDDs twice a year.
Will I be able to build something particularly reliable out of desktop or MoDT parts? Should I look at server HDDs?
I guess this question now boils down to what parts are most likely fail, based on value. I'd much prefer to replace the processor every couple of years rather than have to buy a couple hundred dollars of HDDs twice a year.
The only part I would particularly worry about is HDDs (CPUs, for example rarely fail no matter the type). And getting an old server system just sounds like a bad idea, something that's already years old and you want it to last several longer? I'd still make preparations for even server HDDs failing every few years.
thats been my experiences too..
the CPU rarely fails. but the mechanical HDDs WILL fail eventually.
my xeon server I mentioned above ...
the origional scsi HDD i got with the system failed 1year after seagate's 5yr warranty ran out.
It also had a CPU fan fail during the week and ran with 1 failed cpu fan for several days before I noticed it.
about 6 months after I bought the system the PSU quit and that got replaced.
But the 2 1.8ghz xeon cpus are still running.
one other thing to relate.. the primary source of my own HDD failures have been bad cooling. The HDD above was old, yes. but when I took it out of the case to put in the new one.. i found it almost too hot to touch.
A Steady breeze from a slow fan is enough to keep HDDs cool. but just stuffing them into a cramped case with little or no airflow will guarantee you problems several years down the road.
the CPU rarely fails. but the mechanical HDDs WILL fail eventually.
my xeon server I mentioned above ...
the origional scsi HDD i got with the system failed 1year after seagate's 5yr warranty ran out.
It also had a CPU fan fail during the week and ran with 1 failed cpu fan for several days before I noticed it.
about 6 months after I bought the system the PSU quit and that got replaced.
But the 2 1.8ghz xeon cpus are still running.
one other thing to relate.. the primary source of my own HDD failures have been bad cooling. The HDD above was old, yes. but when I took it out of the case to put in the new one.. i found it almost too hot to touch.
A Steady breeze from a slow fan is enough to keep HDDs cool. but just stuffing them into a cramped case with little or no airflow will guarantee you problems several years down the road.
So, what you guys are really telling me is if I attach a couple of enterprise grade 2.5 inch drives to a D210GLY2 with some sort of linux backup hack from the main to the second or find a cheap microATX board wth gigabit LAN, stick a SAS card for enterprise drives or a RAID card for a couple of SATA drives in RAID 1 will esentially be the same as building myself a full on server (except toned down performance wise)?
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vincentfox
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- Location: CA
Instead of a "backup hack" you could simply mirror the 2 drives. Any Linux distro will let you setup simple software mirroring during the install. No RAID card required.
You haven't really specified much about your application or network needs, but in most cases gigabit ethernet is totally wasted. I've got a production mail-server with over 10,000 users on it that doesn't have enough traffic to even fill a 100-megabit pipe. Sure there are places that gigabit is needed, however it pays to know WHEN that is rather than just assuming it.
You haven't really specified much about your application or network needs, but in most cases gigabit ethernet is totally wasted. I've got a production mail-server with over 10,000 users on it that doesn't have enough traffic to even fill a 100-megabit pipe. Sure there are places that gigabit is needed, however it pays to know WHEN that is rather than just assuming it.
Ok, so I'll flesh that out a bit.
I'd build a custom case and likely use a PSU and fans I already have.
Server 1
Intel D201GLY2 ~ $90
PicoPSU with some modifications ~$70
2x Western Digital 160GB Sata 5400 RPM 2.5 in drives $101 each at Canada Computers
Whatever RAM works ~$50
Server 2
Celeron 420 35$ @ Tigerdirect
ASUS P5B-VM DO $141 @ Ncix
PicoPSU ~$70
Raid Card (I'll have to do my research)
2x WD Caviar SE 500GB Sata2 Drives $130 each at Ncix
1 GB of Kingston 667 MHZ RAM I have lying around
Server 3
2x Xeon E5310/E5320 $244/300 @ Ncix
ASUS DSBV-DX $220@ Newegg
4x 1GB ECC RAM ~$300
2x WD Caviar SE 500GB Sata2 Drives $130 each at Ncix
Server 4
Xeon 3075/x3320 $225/310 @ Ncix
ASUS P5M2-E/4L $210 @ Newegg
4x 1GB ECC RAM ~$300
2x WD Caviar SE 500GB Sata2 Drives $130 each at Ncix
Costs($, in order): 410/500/1280-1400/1000-1100
So who wants to speculate as to what I should pursue?
Someone out there has to have as much of a numerical optimization complex as me.
I'd build a custom case and likely use a PSU and fans I already have.
Server 1
Intel D201GLY2 ~ $90
PicoPSU with some modifications ~$70
2x Western Digital 160GB Sata 5400 RPM 2.5 in drives $101 each at Canada Computers
Whatever RAM works ~$50
Server 2
Celeron 420 35$ @ Tigerdirect
ASUS P5B-VM DO $141 @ Ncix
PicoPSU ~$70
Raid Card (I'll have to do my research)
2x WD Caviar SE 500GB Sata2 Drives $130 each at Ncix
1 GB of Kingston 667 MHZ RAM I have lying around
Server 3
2x Xeon E5310/E5320 $244/300 @ Ncix
ASUS DSBV-DX $220@ Newegg
4x 1GB ECC RAM ~$300
2x WD Caviar SE 500GB Sata2 Drives $130 each at Ncix
Server 4
Xeon 3075/x3320 $225/310 @ Ncix
ASUS P5M2-E/4L $210 @ Newegg
4x 1GB ECC RAM ~$300
2x WD Caviar SE 500GB Sata2 Drives $130 each at Ncix
Costs($, in order): 410/500/1280-1400/1000-1100
So who wants to speculate as to what I should pursue?
Someone out there has to have as much of a numerical optimization complex as me.
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bonestonne
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Server 4 would be best [no need to run dual Xeon unless this is for a moderate to large usage place].
you could cut the price a little even with what it is, by only buying 1 of the 500GB drives. if you really need a lot of storage, get an 80-160gb drive for the OS [no need to make it bigger than it has to be] and then have only one 500gb drive for data storage/network access [if thats the use]. i don't see the need in 1TB in this case...do say otherwise if you feel that way.
4gb of RAM is a good choice for a server, if you're running Windows Server 2003 64bit. if you aren't running 64bit, only get 3 gigs of RAM, unless you intend to mess with the DEP and PAE for a long time...neither of which are entirely worth messing with.
ECC RAM however is well worth the cost for a server, you'll know if its ever on its way out.
with that in mind, you could cut the price down ~$150.
just as a thought, having just any old PSU powering a server can sometimes not be a good idea. i'd suggest calculating the rough wattage that the server will idle with [even the PSU calc can help with that i think] and then add 100W, and that should be the minimum amount you should use. i only say that because i work with three servers in school and i have my own here, and i've had them shut down because the PSU overheated...you want a lot of overhead with a server because when they go under load its very apparent. my server came with a 600W hot swappable PSU [2x 300W] but i just use a 300W to power it...while that keeps the power bill down, i also restrict it a lot. with a Xeon, and a board like that, i wouldn't want less than 400W...and its only a single CPU, my server is dual. energy efficient doesn't often go well with servers.
you could cut the price a little even with what it is, by only buying 1 of the 500GB drives. if you really need a lot of storage, get an 80-160gb drive for the OS [no need to make it bigger than it has to be] and then have only one 500gb drive for data storage/network access [if thats the use]. i don't see the need in 1TB in this case...do say otherwise if you feel that way.
4gb of RAM is a good choice for a server, if you're running Windows Server 2003 64bit. if you aren't running 64bit, only get 3 gigs of RAM, unless you intend to mess with the DEP and PAE for a long time...neither of which are entirely worth messing with.
ECC RAM however is well worth the cost for a server, you'll know if its ever on its way out.
with that in mind, you could cut the price down ~$150.
just as a thought, having just any old PSU powering a server can sometimes not be a good idea. i'd suggest calculating the rough wattage that the server will idle with [even the PSU calc can help with that i think] and then add 100W, and that should be the minimum amount you should use. i only say that because i work with three servers in school and i have my own here, and i've had them shut down because the PSU overheated...you want a lot of overhead with a server because when they go under load its very apparent. my server came with a 600W hot swappable PSU [2x 300W] but i just use a 300W to power it...while that keeps the power bill down, i also restrict it a lot. with a Xeon, and a board like that, i wouldn't want less than 400W...and its only a single CPU, my server is dual. energy efficient doesn't often go well with servers.
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santacruzbob
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you're all over the map with those servers... I really doubt you'll have need for dual quad core xeons 
what's the intended use? just about any modern machine will do fine as a fileserver, I'm still using a P2-450 for mine and it comes close to saturating my 100mbit lan. Assuming you don't really need massive number crunching power I'd recommend the D201GLY2 option due to price and power consumption.
what's the intended use? just about any modern machine will do fine as a fileserver, I'm still using a P2-450 for mine and it comes close to saturating my 100mbit lan. Assuming you don't really need massive number crunching power I'd recommend the D201GLY2 option due to price and power consumption.-
santacruzbob
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I don't see the point running ECC memory if you're not going to run some sort of redundant hard drive setup. As far as power supplies, I recently purchased a two disk xeon x3220 system w/ 8gb ram that came with a 260W psu from ixsystems.com. I think most people are pretty misinformed about minimal psu requirements..bonestonne wrote:you could cut the price a little even with what it is, by only buying 1 of the 500GB drives. if you really need a lot of storage, get an 80-160gb drive for the OS [no need to make it bigger than it has to be] and then have only one 500gb drive for data storage/network access [if thats the use]. i don't see the need in 1TB in this case...do say otherwise if you feel that way.
you want a lot of overhead with a server because when they go under load its very apparent. my server came with a 600W hot swappable PSU [2x 300W] but i just use a 300W to power it...while that keeps the power bill down, i also restrict it a lot. with a Xeon, and a board like that, i wouldn't want less than 400W...and its only a single CPU, my server is dual. energy efficient doesn't often go well with servers.
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bonestonne
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What the server gets used for is a function of how much money I have after Christmas.
If I have a lot, I'll build a nicer server (something reliable at least) host a website with it, check out Folding and generally do what I can to make use of the raw power (seriously though, a pair of quad core xeons is completely ridiculous).
If I don't I'll probably go the Celeron route withthis motherboard.
Then I'll probably just use it as a torrent and file server and see if I can get it working with my TV. And I'll get the website hosted.
Either route, there are loads of cool things I want to try. I'm pretty sure I'll find I way to get my money's worth out of the server.
I didn't really want to list out all the possible uses I will have because there are many things I want to try and I really don't know what I am doing, so I'd probably make myself look pretty stupid.
Basically, I want to know whether I'm missing something obvious, because I've never build or really used a server before.
If I have a lot, I'll build a nicer server (something reliable at least) host a website with it, check out Folding and generally do what I can to make use of the raw power (seriously though, a pair of quad core xeons is completely ridiculous).
If I don't I'll probably go the Celeron route withthis motherboard.
Then I'll probably just use it as a torrent and file server and see if I can get it working with my TV. And I'll get the website hosted.
Either route, there are loads of cool things I want to try. I'm pretty sure I'll find I way to get my money's worth out of the server.
I didn't really want to list out all the possible uses I will have because there are many things I want to try and I really don't know what I am doing, so I'd probably make myself look pretty stupid.
Basically, I want to know whether I'm missing something obvious, because I've never build or really used a server before.