System for recording studio Need Advice

The dman · Post by **The dman** » Sat Nov 24, 2007 2:10 pm

Hello

I'm putting together a box for my recording studio and I want to knock down the db's as much as possible without breaking the bank, I'm deciding on the basic components but need a little help filling in the blanks and suggestions on my choices

Here are my preliminary specs:

Case:COOLER MASTER COSMOS
MOTB: Abit IP35 Pro
CPU: Intel Q6600
CPU cooler:??? something quiet
PSU:CORSAIR 620 HX
Graphics:??? something quiet
Ram: 4- 1 gb sticks Crucial Ballistix Tracer 2GB
HDD1: Western Digital Caviar SE16 WD5000AAKS 80 GB
HDD2: Western Digital Caviar SE16 WD5000AAKS 500GB
HDD3: Western Digital Caviar SE16 WD5000AAKS 500GB

Thanks

Cerb · Post by **Cerb** » Sat Nov 24, 2007 2:20 pm

1. Why Ballistix?
2. Where are the HDDs going to be? Seems to me, the first step is to figure out how far away you can stash them; as, having three of them, they will present the most trouble to you.

bonestonne · Post by **bonestonne** » Sat Nov 24, 2007 2:26 pm

Heatsink: Scythe Ninja. You're going to be getting the G0 stepping almost 99% sure, no need to spend on an Ultra 120, unless you really want to
Graphics: any fanless 6xxx or 7xxx card, if you really need extra, 8600 Silent Pipe by Gigabyte. silent.

drives will be excellent, if you need to prevent Data loss, you can run the 500gb drives in RAID.

the power supply: 500W is the max you'll need. i've seen several thrown out audio workstations, sad to see them thrown out, i salvaged what i could of one, it has 350W for a P4 2.53ghz, with a quad, you don't need a lot of power. the RAM is a good choice, but you will need to run a 64bit OS in order to use all 4 gigs at once. XP x64 is a good start, i wouldn't say Vista just yet.

hope that helps.

The dman · Post by **The dman** » Sat Nov 24, 2007 2:32 pm

Cerb wrote:1. Why Ballistix?
2. Where are the HDDs going to be? Seems to me, the first step is to figure out how far away you can stash them; as, having three of them, they will present the most trouble to you.

I'm not married to ballistix they seem to be recommended a lot. What's your choice?

And as far as HDD's I'm not sure where the best places to mount them will be , I'm still combing through this site trying to learn pick up some pointers

Thanks

The dman · Post by **The dman** » Sat Nov 24, 2007 2:41 pm

but you will need to run a 64bit OS in order to use all 4 gigs at once. XP x64 is a good start, i wouldn't say Vista just yet.

I'm for sure going with 32 bit xp pro. Even if xp doesn't see all the ram if there's a way I could utilize 3 that would be good. I've seen talk about a 3 gig switch in xp that's working for some people but that's another day on the net to figure that out.

http://www.cubase.net/phpbb2/viewtopic. ... 05&start=0

bonestonne · Post by **bonestonne** » Sat Nov 24, 2007 3:02 pm

well, to really get past it i guess, you need to tweak the PAE and DEP, but even after that, you may not get all 4gb. the number is ~3. could be more, could be less depending on a lot of things.

i think that one way around it is to enable the Memory Hole in BIOS, but i only run 3gb in my system, so i'm not sure how effective it'll be.

as per the RAM, Ballistix is a great type of RAM for performance. OC-Z is for overclocking, G-Skill is iffy. thats all that i'll run right now, best bang for the buck i could get while keeping everything on the same level. some people may want more or less, but whatever. A-Data makes great RAM too, same with Corsair. it just depends on the name brand you want. if it has a lifetime warranty, i'm cool with it.

if you're going to be getting a P182, or even the P180, keep the two 500gb drives in the lower chamber, and then 80gb in the upper chamber. they'll stay cool, that wont cause a problem at all. alternatively, you could suspend all 3 in the 5.25" bay to reduce vibration noise. i have a WD drive and a Hitachi drive, and both tend to vibrate during file transfers, but i move around too much to trust suspending them, so i put up with it.

XP Pro 32bit will do fine, thats what i'm using right now for my audio work, it gives me no troubles, however i'm waiting for the opportune time to switch to x64, for performance.

Cerb · Post by **Cerb** » Sat Nov 24, 2007 7:23 pm

The dman wrote:
Cerb wrote:1. Why Ballistix?
2. Where are the HDDs going to be? Seems to me, the first step is to figure out how far away you can stash them; as, having three of them, they will present the most trouble to you.
I'm not married to ballistix they seem to be recommended a lot. What's your choice?

2x2GB sticks of some kind. Four sticks of RAM is asking for it to run slower, or not run at all, and then of RAM that is factory rated for above 1.8v...meh. For overclocking, fine; but for a normal rig, any old DDR2 800 2x2GB (or 533 or 667, if you want--533 is a minimum). I got A-Data, and would recommend them, but you can never go wrong with Crucial (Ballistix is their performance RAM--they make plain stuff, too). Patriot, Kingston, and Corsair are other brands to go with. The important things are that it's rated for 5-5-5 or better (I'd not get above 4-4-4 for 533MHz) at 1.8v.

And as far as HDD's I'm not sure where the best places to mount them will be , I'm still combing through this site trying to learn pick up some pointers

How fast will you need to transfer to them? 5.25" Firewire enclosures might be an idea, with a heatsink-like drive silencer filling the 3.5->5.25 gap, and then having them in a closet or something.

In a heavy case, like the P180 (which also has dampening built in), you might get away with them inside the case. You may want to get it, try it in the case, then move to other options, if that doesn't suffice, though.

Memory size: each application has its own 2GB space to work with. The 3GB switch gives them 3GB, but only if they are designed to use that. You can have 16GB, and that limitation still applies. But, some applications can use tricks to use more, you're going to idle with some RAM, you want some RAM used for file caching, and more RAM is always good for multiple applications.

You may find your needs fully met around 2.5-3GB. But, if you don't, more was worth it. Given RAM prices right now, just get 4GB, a video card with a low amount of RAM on it (if it uses TC or HM, disable that), and take what XP will give you. More memory won't hurt, even if it doesn't help. Paging out always hurts.

Erssa · Post by **Erssa** » Sat Nov 24, 2007 11:47 pm

I guess the main question is, what is it used for? Motherboard with IGP is the best way to go unless you plan to play games with this studio computer. They are cheaper and consume less energy, a complete win-win situation. You can still add VGA later, if you really need one.

As for memory? 2Gb is plenty. 32-bit XP can't use 4 gigs, so it would be a waste of money. Buy the cheapest value memory available, performance gains from memory are negliable. You really gain nothing unless you were planning for high overclocks. From my experience high performance memory also tends to run hotter then value memory. Save your money and your case from extra heat by buying smart.

For case I'd get Antec solo, you can suspend all 3 drives. For psu buy the 300W Fortron Zen (Price after rebate(s) is $34.99 at newegg). It has plenty of juice to power up 2gb, CQ6600, 3 hard drives and soundcard(s). And trust me, if silence is your main priority, you want to have passive power supply.

For cpu, buy Ultra 120 extreme or Scythe Ninja. Cool everything down with 2-3 undervolted nexus fans and you can't go wrong.

The dman · Post by **The dman** » Sun Nov 25, 2007 4:34 am

Thanks again for the replies

Can you give me some recommendation's (brand, model #'s)on dual head video cards? To be honest I'm way out of touch with the new hardware. I do know I don't need a gaming card with all the bells and whistles just something that will run lean and mean and has good drivers. On my old systems I'm still running Matrox G450's which for my purpose never gave me any trouble and I bought them used for like $10.00 each.

This is the MOBO I'm probably getting http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.a ... 6813127030

Would something like this fit my needs?

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.a ... 6814125036

Thanks

Cerb · Post by **Cerb** » Sun Nov 25, 2007 1:44 pm

Erssa wrote:As for memory? 2Gb is plenty. 32-bit XP can't use 4 gigs, so it would be a waste of money. Buy the cheapest value memory available, performance gains from memory are negliable. You really gain nothing unless you were planning for high overclocks. From my experience high performance memory also tends to run hotter then value memory. Save your money and your case from extra heat by buying smart.

Maybe not, but it (assuming it's no different than 2000 in this matter, using defaults) can use 3.6 just fine. The value bit is true in almost every case, though.

(PSU+case snipped)

For cpu, buy Ultra 120 extreme or Scythe Ninja. Cool everything down with 2-3 undervolted nexus fans and you can't go wrong.

Or Scythes. The new Slipstreams are awesome.

The dman wrote:Thanks again for the replies

Can you give me some recommendation's (brand, model #'s)on dual head video cards? To be honest I'm way out of touch with the new hardware. I do know I don't need a gaming card with all the bells and whistles just something that will run lean and mean and has good drivers. On my old systems I'm still running Matrox G450's which for my purpose never gave me any trouble and I bought them used for like $10.00 each.

If you're going with dual LCDs, get a dual-DVI card (the card linked isn't). Otherwise, anything with two outputs will do. LCDs fed from analog risk fuzziness and crawlies.

A low-end nVidia 7xxx should do the trick. 2d quality may be a crap-shoot, though (one reason I went to eVGA). For analog output, you may want a midrange card of a decent brand (eVGA, BFG, Gigabyte, maybe a few others I'm not thinking of right now) just for confidence that it won't be penny-pinched to fuzzyness.

Looking at Newegg, I'd have it narrowed to these two:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.a ... 6814161202
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.a ... 6814127293

For long-term safety, the HIS would probably need a fan nearby, but totally in the case, and running low, that wouldn't be a really big deal. The MSI wouldn't, and would be a better buy. However, if you don't need/want two DVIs, I'd save some money and get this:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.a ... 6814130097

The 7200GS is a poor performer, but with all the power efficiency goodness of the newer Geforces. One of a few GPUs that are modern and should cope well with that kind of itty heatsink.

Of course, I also can't say anything bad about your first choice, as it's currently in my machine, and does an OK job

. It's just overkill for what you're doing (I chose it so I could have something that would handle older games at 1680x1050).

bonestonne · Post by **bonestonne** » Sun Nov 25, 2007 1:48 pm

Gigabyte 8600 Silent Pipe. blows almost every other card away for the price, silence, and cooling abilities.

Also, the only company i'd compare Gigabyte to is eVGA for graphics card quality.

The dman · Post by **The dman** » Sun Nov 25, 2007 2:26 pm

Thanks, you guys are awesome. I'm already on day 3 of combing the net researching

My monitors are vga. Is there any problem using an adapter to go to DVI?

bonestonne · Post by **bonestonne** » Sun Nov 25, 2007 2:30 pm

cards that are DVI out almost always come with DVI-VGA adapters, and these pose no problems at all. in fact, i'm running one right now. and i have no issues running it, and when i use a true DVI monitor, it has no trouble without the adapter. Apple i think is the company that makes the DVI adapters that have small cables on them, but they are not one solid piece. the adapters are the DVI plug for the card, and then a short cable 2-3 inches, and then the VGA plug. i'd recommend looking into them, because my DVI adapter actually ruined my old VGA cable, it was so used to sitting in one position, that when moved, i would lose colors on the monitor. since the rig wont be right by the monitor, i'd strongly suggest them. it'll solve tons of issues before they can even come to be issues.

The dman · Post by **The dman** » Sun Nov 25, 2007 2:32 pm

What the difference between GT and non GT cards? And is the Gigabyte 8600 Silent Pipe an older card I can't seem to find any for sale?

bonestonne · Post by **bonestonne** » Sun Nov 25, 2007 2:42 pm

GT cards are just more powerful, better for gaming

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.a ... 6814125070
i'm not sure why i had to google it to get that link.

thats one of the best fanless cards you can get.

The dman · Post by **The dman** » Sun Nov 25, 2007 2:46 pm

GT cards are just more powerful, better for gaming

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.a ... 6814125070
i'm not sure why i had to google it to get that link.

thats one of the best fanless cards you can get.

Funny I was just looking at that. In the reviews some people are saying it runs hot, do you know anything about that?

Thanks

bonestonne · Post by **bonestonne** » Sun Nov 25, 2007 3:18 pm

best guess, they have a pretty closed case. you just ordered the Cosmos, so just keeping how the interior is laid out, i wouldn't worry about it much. you'll have that card basically in a tunnel with airflow, so heat will hardly be an issue. it'll also be in a machine room, which naturally is cooler than a house.

viewtopic.php?t=43738
^an example of the card in use. while the heatsink is passive, still a fan nearby. the cosmos will have a similar concept when finished.

you'll be more than set running the Silent Pipe...how many people have cases with a VGA duct...much less such a nice case at that.

The dman · Post by **The dman** » Sun Nov 25, 2007 4:01 pm

you'll be more than set running the Silent Pipe...

Ok you talked me into it.

Everythings ordered except the heatsink and the fan.

Thanks so much for your help. I'll post some pictures when I build it.

Here's what I ordered:

Case:COOLER MASTER COSMOS
MOTB: Abit IP35 Pro
CPU: Intel Q6600
CPU cooler:??? something quiet
PSU: CORSAIR CMPSU-520HX ATX
Graphics:GIGABYTE GV-NX86T256H GeForce 8600GT 256MB
Ram: G.SKILL 2GB (2 x 1GB) 240-Pin DDR2 SDRAM DDR2 800
Dvd writer: ASUS 20X DVDÂ±R DVD Burner with LightScribe Black SATA Model DRW-2014L1T
HDD1: Western Digital Caviar SE16 WD5000AAKS 250 GB
HDD2: Western Digital Caviar SE16 WD5000AAKS 750GB
HDD3: Western Digital Caviar SE16 WD5000AAKS 750GB

Cerb · Post by **Cerb** » Sun Nov 25, 2007 5:08 pm

The dman wrote:Funny I was just looking at that. In the reviews some people are saying it runs hot, do you know anything about that?

Thanks

They may run hot, but don't worry about it. The GPUs are safe to over water's boiling point. When you're used to not going over 70C under load, it can be a little disconcerting; but, it's perfectly safe. As long as the case has decent air flow, it will work great.

Good luck, and I hope somebody asks, "is it on?"

bonestonne · Post by **bonestonne** » Sun Nov 25, 2007 5:31 pm

Thermalright Ultra 120 eXtreme or Scythe Ninja.

both coolers are very close in performance. Thermalright is just about the best you can get, but the Ninja is cheaper. with a 120mm fan, you can't get wrong no matter which one you pick. there's still another catch.

the ninja is cheaper, but the ultra 120 has a completely bolt-thru mounting kit. the ninja rev. B is pushpins. if you go for the ninja, you'll want to find a thermaltake universal retention kit, i think its called that. that will let you go bolt-thru on your ninja. if you're not in the mood to go that route, the ultra 120 is great too, also fits a 120mm fan. they system being in a cold environment will be great already, so i'd suggest another investment as well. a 120mm PWM fan to use with whichever heatsink you go for, Ninja or Ultra 120...the PWM fan will only ramp up when it has to. while a lot of fans have speed control, a PWM fan would be better on a PWM header.

both coolers, being based on heatpipes, have no moving parts, and will drop temps far below anything the stock heatsink will be able to do. lapping however is up to you. the CPU's IHS may or may not be remotely close to flat surface [you can check with a razor]. the closer both surfaces are to being flat [and smooth (very important)] the better heat will travel over both surfaces resulting in better cooling.

i can't really suggest one over the other, i have a ninja, but people say the Ultra 120 is a lot better, but you need to get the extreme version, there are more heatpipes for better heat dissipation.

The dman · Post by **The dman** » Sun Nov 25, 2007 6:10 pm

i can't really suggest one over the other, i have a ninja, but people say the Ultra 120 is a lot better, but you need to get the extreme version, there are more heatpipes for better heat dissipation.

I was looking at those I'm just waiting to here from abit to see which one will play nice with the MB.

I was also looking at this http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.a ... 6835106061

and this
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.a ... feb4701445

bonestonne · Post by **bonestonne** » Sun Nov 25, 2007 7:12 pm

the ninja might work best. reason being:
1) the Ultra 120 would most likely hit the northbridge cooler
2) the other thermaltake cooler with the 120mm fan i few as very unbalanced with weight. it looks very topheavy for what it is.
3) the 128 SE [to me] doesn't appear to have to cooling ability for a quad core.

BUT
catch 22.
the ninja does not fit.

the Ultra 120 extreme does fit! but its very tall, you wont have the option of a fan on the side of the case over the CPU area with this cooler.

the Thermaltake cooler has an all metal back plate. this gives it the risk of touching capacitors and that would be really bad. at the same time, it has foam to insulate the plate as a prevention, but people have mentioned loose or not well fitting back plates for the cooler. nothing i'd put on a Q6600.

the SI-128 SE is just something i view as too small a cooler to do the job, however it is mentioned on the lists of quad core coolers, so i'd say its your decision.

Final thoughts:
Ultra 120 eXtreme is the best option.

Erssa · Post by **Erssa** » Mon Nov 26, 2007 2:22 am

bonestonne wrote:Gigabyte 8600 Silent Pipe. blows almost every other card away for the price, silence, and cooling abilities.

Also, the only company i'd compare Gigabyte to is eVGA for graphics card quality.

bonestonne wrote:GT cards are just more powerful, better for gaming

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.a ... 6814125070
i'm not sure why i had to google it to get that link.

thats one of the best fanless cards you can get.

Wow, so much bad info. First of all GT is only faster with 8800 series. 8600GT is a cut-down version of 8600GTS. Second, The dman, I urge you to reconsider. Don't make the same mistake I made. There's a thread here in SPCR about the bad quality of Gigabyte 8600GT. I though I might be luckier then those who reported to the thread, but I was wrong. My gigabytes made insane whining noise (granted only in 3D while playing games, so it wouldn't affect you much). I went through the RMA process twice before I asked for refund. There are plenty of other passive cards out there, so why risk it? I liked the one slot passive cooler solution in the Gigabyte, too bad the quality was crap.

The dman wrote:I do know I don't need a gaming card with all the bells and whistles just something that will run lean and mean and has good drivers

Then why do you want to waste money on one? Unless you plan to play new games, there's absolutely no sense in buying a graphics card. It will just increase heat inside you case without any real world gains. New AMD and Nvidia integrated graphics are perfectly capable of running HD quality videos, and X1250 integrated are probably more cabable then 8600GT. Even Intels IGPs are fine, if you don't play games. And even if you later decide you want to play games in recording studio, nothing prevents you from buying a graphics card later.

bonestonne · Post by **bonestonne** » Mon Nov 26, 2007 3:36 am

Then why do you want to waste money on one? Unless you plan to play new games, there's absolutely no sense in buying a graphics card. It will just increase heat inside you case without any real world gains. New AMD and Nvidia integrated graphics are perfectly capable of running HD quality videos, and X1250 integrated are probably more cabable then 8600GT. Even Intels IGPs are fine, if you don't play games. And even if you later decide you want to play games in recording studio, nothing prevents you from buying a graphics card later.

Dual display is the key however. its needed for this.

also you'd say that the 8600 is better than the 8600GT? thats how you're making it sound.

i wouldn't suggest a bad card Erssa, but this card wont be used for gaming, it wont be used for HDMI, HD videos or anything like that, its needed for a dual display setup, and it knocks most competitors out.

Erssa · Post by **Erssa** » Mon Nov 26, 2007 4:04 am

bonestonne wrote:Dual display is the key however. its needed for this.

You can do dual display with IGP just as well.

also you'd say that the 8600 is better than the 8600GT? thats how you're making it sound.

No, I specifically said "8600GT is a cut-down version of 8600GTS", which means GTS is faster then GT. It's impossible for it to have any other meaning, when 8600 vanilla doesn't exist. 8600GT is the slowest model of 8600-series.

i wouldn't suggest a bad card Erssa, but this card wont be used for gaming, it wont be used for HDMI, HD videos or anything like that, its needed for a dual display setup, and it knocks most competitors out.

I'm sure you wouldn't. But you can do even better with X1250. I'll quote from wikipedia. "The chipset also support dual VGA and DVI or DVI and HDMI output simultaneously, to achieve a maximum of three monitor output, called "SurroundView", and up to four independent displays with an additional video card." That's up to 3 displays with just the integrated.

There is absolutely no need to have 8600GT in this machine, unless the OP wants to play games. Otherwise it's a waste of money, disruption for case airflow and extra source of heat.

bonestonne · Post by **bonestonne** » Mon Nov 26, 2007 4:22 pm

on a more important note:

i saw that you decided against the Cosmos d_man. i'm not entirely surprised as it is massive, but what's your plan now? you could go for a P182 which would have a somewhat smaller footprint, but its still a full sized ATX case. at the same time, you could go for another cooler master, such as a Centurion or Stacker, which would still give you plenty of room and cooling.

i'm just curious to know what you're thinking at this point. with a silent computer, the case is one of the most important parts. i can see logic from many directions on the matter. maybe a 4U rackmount? only problem with those is heatsink size, you're very limited. i have seen towers placed on 2U rackmount trays, but i don't trust those for long under any condition.

The dman · Post by **The dman** » Mon Nov 26, 2007 7:37 pm

on a more important note:

i saw that you decided against the Cosmos d_man. i'm not entirely surprised as it is massive, but what's your plan now? you could go for a P182 which would have a somewhat smaller footprint, but its still a full sized ATX case. at the same time, you could go for another cooler master, such as a Centurion or Stacker, which would still give you plenty of room and cooling.

i'm just curious to know what you're thinking at this point. with a silent computer, the case is one of the most important parts. i can see logic from many directions on the matter. maybe a 4U rackmount? only problem with those is heatsink size, you're very limited. i have seen towers placed on 2U rackmount trays, but i don't trust those for long under any condition.

At this point and time I'm looking at the P 182 and still window shopping. Your right it all starts with the case that's why I'm taking my time on this. I don't actually have to have a full size case I'm just concerned about 3 pci cards and a graphics card in a smaller case and heat. To be honest deciding on a case has taken me longer than any other component.

bonestonne · Post by **bonestonne** » Mon Nov 26, 2007 8:16 pm

well, with a full sized ATX motherboard, you're restricted to having a full ATX case, so you wont be able to run out of room for the cards or cooling if done right.

the P182 is a great case, but there'll be some mods that you'll want to do to it to make it more practical, and it starts with the plastic covers over the fans in the front, they're very restrictive. just about every good case you'll come across has something that should be changed about it, but thats how you know its quality. its an amazing case as is, but it can be even better if you put time into it.

the soundcards, i'd say don't worry about them so much. they will get warm, but not even remotely close to a point where you'll want to throw in more fans. as i mentioned before, RAM heatsinks on chipsets can make a difference, and many people do it [even me, just take a look at my graphics card]. to be quite honest you're taking this a lot smarter than i did. i stuck a server into an Apevia X-Dreamer...turned into an absolute nightmare, was very unstable and could not stay on for ~20 minutes. moved the rig into a new case, new processors, heatsinks and a massive overhaul of cabling made it a great system, but i don't use it that much anymore, i want to get a Centurion for it, but i need a new camera more than a new computer case.

there's nothing wrong with taking your time on this. but, at the same time, there are so many mods you can do to just about any case to get silence and great cooling. Scythe Kama Bay, Scythe Slip Stream fans, Zalman Fan Mates, RAM heatsinks...the list is endless really.

Erssa · Post by **Erssa** » Tue Nov 27, 2007 12:05 am

The dman wrote:I don't actually have to have a full size case I'm just concerned about 3 pci cards and a graphics card in a smaller case and heat.

Even though my advices have been completely ignored so far, I'm still going to repeat myself once more, before I leave this thread permanently.
YOU DON'T NEED GRAPHICS CARD FOR THIS COMPUTER
Unless you're planning on playing the latest games with it. Are you?

For example ASUS P5GC-VM Motherboard has 3 pci-slots and Intel GMA950 IGP. Although this motherboard only has one vga port, I'm sure there's a model that has 3 pci-slots and integrated graphics with 2 ports.

MSI K9AG Neo2-Digital AM2 has 3 pci-slots and supports up to 3 displays.

gentonix · Post by **gentonix** » Tue Nov 27, 2007 1:11 am

Erssa wrote:Although this motherboard only has one vga port, I'm sure there's a model that has 3 pci-slots and integrated graphics with 2 ports.

If there is one, be sure to tell, because I haven't found one.

MSI K9AG Neo2-Digital AM2 has 3 pci-slots and supports up to 3 displays.

But that's AM2 and Phenom just isn't very good value for money right now.