Fanless Design Help Please !

crazyox · Post by **crazyox** » Wed Nov 28, 2007 12:39 pm

I am trying to put together a fanless rig. I am not concerned about m/b, cpu (assuming it is an athlon of some sort, not a sempron), graphics, etc as I will not be playing any games, etc. and will just be using the graphics already onboard the m/b (assuming it has this). I am looking for a parts list and cost for a case, power supply and cooling parts (heatsinks or heatpipes). I can underclock the system for lower heat production as I did with my current computer (running all fans at 5 volts, but still not quiet enough. I also need 2 or 3 harddrives for DAW purposes and will probably go with 2.5" for lower noise (further quieting of harddrives woulod be nice too). External optical drives ar suitable for burning so no 5.14 bay needed

I have look at a zalman fanless case but it only allows one harddrive and costs a lot from what I've seen, not to mention that it doesn't seem to be available yet. (Budget for P/S, MB and Cooling is $750, but that is really pushing it for me)

If a system with fans is absolutley neccesary, it must be quiter than what I have, so unless there are fans that can run quieter than my undervolted stock Enermax (2 in powersupply, one 80, one 90) and 80 mm cpu fan (brand unknown), then there is no point in a new computer for me at this time.

Current computer is an undervolted Athlon XP 1700+ which has slightly less speed than I need, so I can wait for now.

Thanks

bonestonne · Post by **bonestonne** » Wed Nov 28, 2007 12:54 pm

last night i was talking to a friend of mine, much older and more experienced than myself on the matter, but had a few interesting things to say on a DAW.

don't give up on a system if it requires fans, most [90%] of computers have a fan in them. dells have it, those crazy new slim iMac's have fans inside...don't think you can take anything and get a fanless system.

my advice, if you want to stick with AMD [which i haven't seen in many DAWs] get any AMD x2 EE edition processor. this will give you 65W max on the processor, so you'll generate very low heat as is. also, don't run the stock heatsink. some AMDs that i've seen have very nice stock heatsinks, i will say that, but not all. a Scythe Ninja will do fine without breaking the bank.

with the right power supply [80+ certified] and the right motherboard, you'll only need 2 fans in your system, and chances are, you will have no trouble undervolting them, which could make them completely inaudible. the power supply should have one, unless you trust it fanless [something i wouldn't do] and there should be an exhaust fan for the case and a CPU cooling fan. if you trust the heatsink to cool the CPU with heat tolerance that's acceptable to you, then just run the exhaust fan on the PWM header. that will make the exhaust ramp up when hot air needs to get out. larger fans can be undervolted better than smaller fans, and they'll still move more air over a wider surface area.

aside from that, you could easily get a mATX case to do the job. mount two drives in the lower bay, a third in a 5.25" bay suspended if you want, and it'll be small, powerful and very quiet.

quiet doesn't have to be fanless, and a system like that could be built for less than $500 if you go for the right hardware.

might i ask what you do with your DAW? i'd suggest if anything, a lower clock rate [2.4ghz is more than enough] and at least 2gb of RAM, and 4gb of RAM if you're using 64bit OS. reason being, audio uses the processor, and some RAM. having a solid and fast combination means that your DAW will never hit 100% load, and will still be able to do things quickly. my box is a DAW/photoshop workstation, so i need a little bit more of both, but i only have 3gb of RAM.

lastly, in all honesty, i'd suggest an internal optical drive, only because installing the OS will be easier, configuration will have less details.

hope that helps you out.

jaganath · Post by **jaganath** » Wed Nov 28, 2007 3:49 pm

unless there are fans that can run quieter than my undervolted stock Enermax (2 in powersupply, one 80, one 90) and 80 mm cpu fan (brand unknown), then there is no point in a new computer for me at this time.

I think i can safely say there are fans that can run quieter than the stock fans in an Enermax psu and the stock fan on your stock heatsink. Nexus, Noctua, Scythe and Yate Loon are just some of the brands which are renowned for their quietness; to be frank, you musn't try to run (go fanless) before you have learned to walk (used good fans).

Cerb · Post by **Cerb** » Wed Nov 28, 2007 5:13 pm

What are all the current parts you have to transfer? $750 is a tight budget, but may be quite doable. It would help to know what ports and slots you use. CPU cooler alone may necessitate a new mobo, CPU,and PSU...but, maybe not, too. Also, what OS (XP for a new mobo is added cost, most likely)? The more info on exactly what you've got and use, the better.

crazyox · Post by **crazyox** » Wed Nov 28, 2007 8:36 pm

more info on exactly what you've got and use, the better.[/quote]

Thanks to everyone so far.

The OS is not an issue as I already have an unopened XP package I got on sale and have no interest in Vista. The only part that could be transfered is the sound card, keyboard, mouse, ethernet card, and tv tuner and optical drive (harddrives potentially, but I think that heat buildup has damaged them (3 of the 3.5 inch seagate barracudas) so I am planning on two or three 2.5 inch samsung spinpoints (recommendations much appreciated).

That said, all I need in a computer is built in video or a cheap card, at 1Gb Ram with potential to add more later, any processor with decent floating point processing stats, and the case/power supply/cooling. The reason I wanted to go fanless is that I want as much as possible to not hear anything, not primarily because it is for DAW, but because my tinnitus makes me very sensitve to any noise and makes me very moody. Every time I notice noise, it reminds me of my tinnitus which makese the annoyance of the tinnitus much worse. Also, computer noise makes me angry because loud fans might be what cause my high frequency hearing loss/tinnitus in the first place.

If anyone can give me names or links to good motherboards for underclocking that would be great as I have no idea what motherboards have to do with noise, other than underclocking. Also, how do you get a new m/b to boot if there is no CPU fan connected (heatpipe used instead), because I know of one that wouldn't.

The budget I listed was not including the components, just the case/ powersupply/cooling, so if I can build a computer that you folks think I can be satisfied with for under $800 for everything, that would be awesome. I would not, however, spend much more than for a computer unless I was extremely confident that the noise level would be signifigantly less than what I currently use. Is noiseless just an impossibility?

1000 thanks in advance for anyone who responds to these questions!

Cerb · Post by **Cerb** » Wed Nov 28, 2007 10:12 pm

on the Tinnitus. I almost consider myself lucky to have gotten it as little kid from ear infections (so am totally used to it), but it took a few concerts before I started taking care of my ears.

So...I'd try for:

Antec Solo case, or P180, or P182
Corsair VX450 or Seasonic S12 330
2GB value DDR2 800 RAM (<$50, A-Data, Corsair, Kingston,or Crucial)
Whatever HDDs, and figure out mounting
2 to 4 Scythe Slipstream 800 RPM fans (I'd get 2 800 for the Solo, 4 500 for the P180--you may not use them all in the P180, but it won't hurt to have the flexibility, because if you use the P180, you will need to spend time playing with your options)
Thermalright Ultra 120 Extreme

Then, well, a mobo and CPU. For undervolting, and as far as chipset to go for on the AMD side, I don't know. AMD mobos have compelling prices for the features, and you can get good 2d with them cheaply. But, if you want performance, Intel is the only way to fly. For an Intel IGP mobo...I'll leave that to someone else. Enough people seem to be happy with Gigabyte's that I am open-minded about their ability to put out good VGA, but my experience with recent Intel IGP has been on the fuzzy side.

While you can go for something that can underclock and undervolt well, if you don't need high performance, it will not be an issue. A decent E4x00 or A64 X2 will do fine at stock settings. If you don't need really high performance, I'd get a E4600 and leave it stock everything.

With the P182, Corsair VX450, 3 Fujitsu 80GB drives (I just happened upon them first, this is by no means any sort of recommendation), Gigabyte's non-DVI G33 board, and a E4600, it comes out to right at $800 (within cents, for the whole system), sans S&H. The Solo would reduce that a bit, as would going AMD (but, AMD's whole line, excepting new Phenoms, tops out around the E4600's performance). With a little time spent cabling, and possibly duct taping some areas on the P180 (the P180 is not a,"just plug it in and go," kind of case), I'd be completely confident it would be cool enough, and dead quiet. I'd be a little less confident in the quietness for the Solo, but you would be done sooner with the Solo

.

jaganath · Post by **jaganath** » Thu Nov 29, 2007 2:05 am

Fortron Zen fanless psu is $35 at newegg at the moment after rebate, at that price it is hard to resist (although Silverstone ST30NF is the best fanless PSU). Like Cerb said, I would go with Scythe Slipstream 120mm fans, Antec Solo case, two or three 2.5 inch samsung spinpoints (i have one 40GB and one 80GB of these, both are very quiet). seeing as an undervolted Athlon XP 1700+ is only slightly insufficient for your needs, even the budget modern CPUs (E2140/60/80) should be more than enough. any Intel mobo w/ IGP should be fine, the CPUs I mentioned run very cool, no need for undervolting (although be sure to get the M0 stepping, not the L2 which are hotter). for heatsink I would normally favour Scythe Ninja, but I hear the mounting mechanism for socket 775 is really poor.

Bluefront · Post by **Bluefront** » Thu Nov 29, 2007 3:34 am

For a completely fanless CPU heatsink the Ninja cannot be equaled. I'd recommend the Scythe universal retention kit, as it avoids the stock push-pins. That heatsink can run fanless in the proper configuration.

But so can the Fortron Zen PSU. The problem is....in a normal case it's one or the other.....not both. If the Zen is located outside the case it is possible. But for ease of setup, I'd go with a PICO instead. A PICO will add almost no heat to the case, unlike the ZEN.

Over-all.....it's a whole lot easier to build an almost silent case with a quiet fan or two. You are not nearly as limited as you are trying to go totally fanless.

crazyox · Post by **crazyox** » Thu Nov 29, 2007 10:55 am

I should have mentioned that I am not interested in anything that requires hard modding (soldering, routing, opening up powersupplies or voiding warranties. I just don't have the patience for any of what I went through before -- I underclocked all the fans through a homemade fan controller, rigged an 80mm to a 60 mm and lined the whole case with carpet underpadding, which took longer than you might think. I also went through the pain of losing a cpu, a memory stick, and I think 2 of the harddrives are dying, but they were second hand and might have been damaged before hand--the problem is intermittent and rare)

Thanks for the comments everyone, but I am still not sure which way to go. I have had good luck with AMD in the past and do not blame them for the chip I ruined as it should have been underclocked with the heatsink/fan speed combination I was using. It was a non XP athlon 1400 which turned out to be the worst choice possible for quiet computer, but I didn't know about places like this to get help.

I am buying from Canada, but with our dollar at its highest in my lifetime, it might be cheaper to order from the US anyway. I am a little worried about these NewEgg deals because they seem to be too good to be true...is there a catch and has anyone had any problems or disappointments?

At NewEgg, I only see the Ninja-mini heatsink. This is not the one everyone is talking about, is it. Has it been replaced by a new model.

jaganath · Post by **jaganath** » Thu Nov 29, 2007 11:13 am

I am a little worried about these NewEgg deals because they seem to be too good to be true...is there a catch and has anyone had any problems or disappointments?

if money was no object, I would not buy the FSP Zen. if you look on the newegg reviews, there is a rather high number of failures. I have had an FSP Zen fail spectacularly in the past. the Silverstone ST30NF is probably the best power supply money can buy, although it is not cheap at $150 canadian.

OK, I will sketch out an AMD build for you; the one advantage of AMD is that there are many affordable motherboards that allow undervolting of the CPU in BIOS.

same as before, except with AMD Athlon 64 LE-1620 2.4GHz Socket AM2 45W Processor, for motherboard you can choose between ASRock AM2NF6G-VSTA, ASRock ALiveNF7G-HDready, ECS GeForce6100SM-M, ABIT NF-M2S, ECS RS485M-M, ECS C51GM-M. all of these boards I know for a fact allow BIOS undervolting of CPU.

everything else the same, Slipstream fans etc.

crazyox · Post by **crazyox** » Thu Nov 29, 2007 11:21 am

Thanks for the componenet list Jaganath...I will check the cost on that and the availability at the stores I might do business with, probably NCIX or NewEgg. Do you have a particular model of harddrive you recommend, and do you recomend a silencer for it?

I don't see that exact model of Silverstone at Newegg. Does NF mean no fan, for I see non of that brand with no fan. Also, it appears to be only 300 watt...is that enough for a modern system with two or three harddrives

Also, just wondering if the boards that have both DVI and analog output have dual monitor compatibility, cause I'd hate to add a video card to the system when I get a second monitor, just more heat. If neccesary, I'll just get a really big monitor when I can afford it, and use my 17" for a backup.

Thanks

Cerb · Post by **Cerb** » Thu Nov 29, 2007 12:08 pm

The Intels don't give two outputs., IIRC. The few AMDs that do will only do DVI and VGA, not VGA and VGA, I'm pretty sure. Cards can be added to get more, but they're half of a video card's cost.

Don't sweat it, though. When you get a new monitor, get a nice fanless card with a current generation non-gaming GPU, if you want an extra display. For fanless and good analog, I'd trust any of eVGA's low-end cards. The extra heat is minimal over IGP (<20W for most low-end cards).

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.a ... 6814130097
There's a card that will give two decent analog outputs, and not require any additional cooling over what works without a video card (assuming a nice case, of course). Whenever you end up needing another display, there will be similar cards available.

jaganath · Post by **jaganath** » Thu Nov 29, 2007 12:25 pm

Do you have a particular model of harddrive you recommend, and do you recomend a silencer for it?

the Samsung 2.5" SATA drives are very good. the IDE ones are good too, I just don't like fiddling around with 2.5"->3.5" IDE converters. it's so simple with SATA. Re: silencers, I would wait until you have the drives installed in your case, and see if the case cuts down the noise enough for it not to be a problem.

I don't see that exact model of Silverstone at Newegg. Does NF mean no fan, for I see non of that brand with no fan. Also, it appears to be only 300 watt...is that enough for a modern system with two or three harddrives

you're right, newegg don't seem to carry it, however NCIX do IIRC (only a few in stock tho!). 300W is plenty for a modest system w/ integrated graphics and a couple of hard drives (2.5" HDD are very low-power; less than 5W).

bonestonne · Post by **bonestonne** » Thu Nov 29, 2007 12:37 pm

i'm with cerb on the tinnitus, but people are different from each other.

if you were to go totally fanless, you still run the risk of hard drive noise, coil whine, and other stuff like that. i have more of a problem with higher pitched, noise, so i'd say that's an issue to consider.

i don't really want to say wait on certain things, but there's a chance of a new Scythe Ninja coming into the market that has a slightly better design than the original. rather than 3 heatpipes against each other, they're spread out. I've only seen reviews for it, and i don't know if its actually released yet.

if you wanted to, you could use an Antec P180 [because it cools better than P182 (vents by PCI slots vs no vents)] and swap out the antec Tri-Cools for Scythe Slip Streams, use the zalman fan mates to undervolt the fans, and you could run completely silent [because p180/2's have dampened sides] with a scythe ninja as the heatsink. futhering that, you could easily put the tower under a desk, meaning anything you could potentially hear is now deflected by the table.

it depends on what you want to do, there are endless possibilities, and easy solutions the many problems.

Cerb · Post by **Cerb** » Thu Nov 29, 2007 12:54 pm

At NewEgg, I only see the Ninja-mini heatsink. This is not the one everyone is talking about, is it. Has it been replaced by a new model.

SCNJ-1100P = Ninja Plus

crazyox · Post by **crazyox** » Thu Nov 29, 2007 4:45 pm

Thanks you veryone for the help and thanks in advance for other suggestions.

Also, if Jaganath is still out there, I don't see that powers supply on new egg for $30...are you mistaken or is the offer expired.

thejamppa · Post by **thejamppa** » Thu Nov 29, 2007 5:09 pm

Cerb wrote: on the Tinnitus. I almost consider myself lucky to have gotten it as little kid from ear infections (so am totally used to it), but it took a few concerts before I started taking care of my ears.

Tinnitus sucks... my brothers has it and I got it. It actually took silencing my computer near inaudiable when I discovered I had tinnitus... I prolly got that in artillery when I served there as firebase medic.

On the system: Its matter of licking if P180 has superior cooling or P182. You can easily remove those rubber tube cover in side to help cooling in P182. In P180 there is no cable management.

Scythe slipsstreams sound very solid for the members who have tried. Also... Ninja CU, with heatpipe arrangement like in Minja... looks like winner ^^

crazyox · Post by **crazyox** » Thu Nov 29, 2007 5:23 pm

OK, but I am a little worried about the front of the P180 and P182. It looks like it has a cover over the bays and I saw a review that indicated the cover was of poor build quality...does it swing open or do you have to pull it right off...then I would find an internal optical a bit of a problem.

And does anyone know if there are ever free shipping deals with ncix or newegg, because the quiet cases are very heavy. Any other coupon codes or haggling ideas are also appreciated.

andyb · Post by **andyb** » Thu Nov 29, 2007 5:42 pm

FYI, I am about to build the following for a friend and will test it at 100% CPU load, and compare it to my PC wich is uber-quiet.

Antec Solo.
Seasonic S12 380W
X2 5000+ (65W)
Ninja
2GB RAM
Integrated mobo
2 x 500GB Samsung HD501LJ's

I built a very similar system for someone else, but that was at my noisy office and had a slower CPU (4200+ I think) that was thermally fine at max load for 45mins and had stabalised. It only had 2 fans running, the PSU fan, and the Antec Tri-Cool on low.

I have at my disposal 2x Scythe fans that came with Ninja's (completely different designs - I need to investigate that) for possible usage.

I will let you know how it compares to my PC with 3 Nexus fans, 1 @ 5v, and 2 thermally controlled (currently both are running (warm room) 502rpm and 527rpm).

Andy

crazyox · Post by **crazyox** » Thu Nov 29, 2007 6:04 pm

andyb wrote:FYI, I am about to build the following for a friend and will test it at 100% CPU load, and compare it to my PC wich is uber-quiet.

What is your PC setup.

Anyone tried the Antec Sonata Case. It comes with a power supply and is supposed to be quiet (but by what standards)

Cerb · Post by **Cerb** » Thu Nov 29, 2007 7:20 pm

thejamppa wrote: Tinnitus sucks... my brothers has it and I got it. It actually took silencing my computer near inaudiable when I discovered I had tinnitus... I prolly got that in artillery when I served there as firebase medic.

Just ear infections when I was wee little, here. I don't ever recall it not being there.

crazyox wrote:Anyone tried the Antec Sonata Case. It comes with a power supply and is supposed to be quiet (but by what standards)

Not bad, but it's another good value for the power supply, like the NSK cases. Said power supply is not as quiet as a Seasonic S12 (and while I haven't yet used one, that pretty much rules them out as being near the Corsairs, too).

If you want the best in silence, get the P180. If you want to save a little money, or make the build fairly quick and easy, get the Solo. The Solo, also, does not have a door.

jaganath · Post by **jaganath** » Fri Nov 30, 2007 1:43 am

I don't see that powers supply on new egg for $30...are you mistaken or is the offer expired.

it's $35 if you send in the rebate:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.a ... 6817104902

andyb · Post by **andyb** » Fri Nov 30, 2007 5:58 am

What is your PC setup.

"SPCR" P180, Phantom 500 with Nexus @ 5v, ASUS A8R-MVP, 4000+ with Ninja & Nexus fan variable, Nexus case fan variable, X1950 PRO 512MB with AC Accelero S1, 2-GB GEIL, T133 400GB, No Page File, <20 Db on the desktop

Anyone tried the Antec Sonata Case. It comes with a power supply and is supposed to be quiet (but by what standards)

It's OK if your not fanatical about quiet/silent, but its far from brilliant.

Andy

walkingjohn · Post by **walkingjohn** » Fri Nov 30, 2007 9:00 am

crazyox, a couple FYIs:

-NewEgg doesn't ship to Canada, according to their FAQ on the website

-if you are near Kingston or have a friend there, Canada Computers lists two of the Silverstone fanless psus on clearance for $99 (I don't know if they'll ship them, since they aren't part of the online stock).

Also, I've had good luck with DirectCanada.com (YMMV), which often seems to have the lowest Canadian price.