How many fans is too many?

DarkScythe · Post by **DarkScythe** » Wed Feb 13, 2008 8:05 am

Hello everyone,

This is my first post here, please forgive me if I get something wrong.
My friend is an avid reader of SPCR and referred me here for some help, because I wanted some extra opinions on a new system I'm building.

IMO I'm more tolerant of noise than he is, but I agree that it can always be quieter. The problem is I don't really want to risk overheating to achieve it.

Case in point, my next PC is planned to be housed in a P182 case running an E8400 processor that will probably be OC'd to 3.6GHz (OC FSB to 400.)

One big problem that we can't agree on is what heatsink to use for this. I figured it would have been a choice between the Cooler Master Hyper 212 or the Thermalright Ultima-90, but he says I should go for the cheaper Ultra-90 for the same effect because it costs $20 less (and therefore, better value for money.) I'm unsure if there are any other (midrange or cheaper please) decent heatsinks out there that can cool a 3.6GHz proc, especially with an undervolted fan pushing less air than normal.

Another problem we've run into is how many fans to use.
I'm planning to use the Scythe S-FLEX fans, probably medium speed, and undervolt a bunch of them. It's that or the Nexus fans, both of which are very quiet from reviews. But of course, this is with one of them. I thought I'd need a fan for the CPU, a fan for the GPU (installing an Accelero S2 along with an undervolted fan), an intake fan, and exhaust fan and a fan for the HD rack at the bottom.. That's 5 fans so far. 6 if I really want to fill it up and put one on the top of the case too.

My friend claims I don't need so many fans, and while I kind of see what he means, I have a feeling I'd be compromising the cooling somehow if I took some of them out. That and even though they're quiet fans, how loud does it get when you put FIVE of them together?

For the record, I currently have an old Antec SLK3700AMB with 2 120mm Panaflo's and an 80mm Panaflo on the CPU, and I believe another fan (forget what it is) on my 9800 Pro (all running full speed). While I can tolerate it, it's really darn loud when I compare the noise after I turn it off.

Sorry for the long post, but I'd appreciate any help/opinions.
Thanks in advance!

Post by **NeilBlanchard** » Wed Feb 13, 2008 9:32 am

Hello & welcome to SPCR!

The key to good cooling at minimum noise comes down to a couple of things: good air flow, and efficient heatsinks. The P182 is an excellent case (as is the Solo), and I don't think that you can do better than the Scythe Ninja (with a Thermalright S775 backplate).

Because, the Ninja is a very efficient heatsink, and it is the best at low air flow. And low air flow is quieter, if you have a good case with good fan grills.

I'd think that you could build your system with 2, or maybe 3 Scythe Slipstream 800RPM fans. In the Solo, you might even get away with 1 fan (plus the PSU fan).

DarkScythe · Post by **DarkScythe** » Wed Feb 13, 2008 9:40 am

Thanks for the welcome!

I hadn't thought about the Ninja, but I'll take a look at it.
When you say get away with 2 fans though.. which 2 are you referring to?

With the P182 there are a total of 6 possible fan locations out of the box.
CPU: Fan definitely?
GPU: Fan / or maybe I can get away with fanless with the Accelero S2 but again, I don't want it overheating on me.. the fan would be insurance against that.
Case Intake: Maybe?
Case Exhaust: Possibly..
Case HDD Rack: Heard recommendations to definitely leave this one installed.
Case Top Fan: Not sure I need this.

As far as CPU heatsinks go, I was looking at the "higher-midrange" stuff because I was going to experiment with overclocking and as OC produces more heat, I wanted to make sure I could keep it nice and cool (as close to 50c load as possible.) My friend insists an extra 5-10c isn't going to be detrimental if it means lowering the noise of the system, but I am relying on these parts to last for 5 years or so, and higher temps usually reduce lifespan, no?

Thanks again

Post by **MikeC** » Wed Feb 13, 2008 9:52 am

Don't use intake fans, use the back exhaust, and block off the top with a block of foam in place of the fan -- just about any kind. Whether the fans blow in or out, the overall airflow is similar, but putting them in front means they're closer to you. Proximity matters with noise.

With a Ninja, a very slow fan is enough.

Why go for the S2 when the S1 rev.B also fits, just a couple $ more and better?

As for the bottom fan, use it only if you have more than 2 HDDs and have a very slow spinning fan in your PSU.

Check various threads in these forums on P180 tweaks -- and on the last page(?) of our orig review.

Finally, do this intake vent cover mod.

Blue_Sky · Post by **Blue_Sky** » Wed Feb 13, 2008 10:36 am

If you are going to overclock your CPU, even if it is 45 mn CPU, go for a full size heatsink like the Scythe Ninja or Thermalright Ultra-120 Extreme. The Ninja is supposed shine with a lower airflow (as Neil said) and the TRUE is supposed to work best with a faster airflow.
My E6750 idles at 33/33 C with a TRUE and a 500 RPM fan, as a data point.

I believe that you minimal fan setup is one exhaust and one CPU fan. That is what I am running, and what I think Neil is referring to.
I would recommend putting a fan on the Accelero, as it will help circulate the air inside the case, which will help cool your motherboard, RAM and any PCI/-E cards.

The rest of the fans seem unnecessary. Adding an intake fan on any of the computers I have modded has never changed any of the temps more than 1 or 2 degrees. The HDD bay doesn't need a fan unless you plan on filling it with hard drives. At 5 - 10 W a HDD, they just don't produce enough heat. A second case exhaust fan just sounds like an unnecessary noise source.

Edit: Looks like MikeC beat me to it.

DarkScythe · Post by **DarkScythe** » Wed Feb 13, 2008 4:33 pm

Thanks for the replies guys, I took a look at the Scythe Ninja (Copper 120mm one?)
It seems to cost $70 on Newegg.. My friend was trying to get me to go for the Ultra-90 because it was only $25 and would probably cool the CPU adequately. I was going to shoot for around $40-50 with the Hyper212 or Ultima90, $70 sounds like a lot, and my budget is somewhat limited.

I didn't see the Accelero S1 on newegg, but that was because newegg decided to call it "Accels1" instead, so it never turned up on my searches. For $24 it seems viable, and officially supports the 8800GT but not sure how much better it performs over the S2. Is it really worth the added cost?

As far as the fans go, I'm not sure if you guys mean removing whole fans while keeping the others at full speed or not.
I was thinking of just putting 4 of the 5 fans on 5volts and leave the CPU one run at 12v.. or maybe undervolt it to 7/5v if the heatsink is good enough. I'll probably use the Tuniq TX2 over the Arctic Silver 5 because it's better and cheaper. I also have a Seasonic S12II 380w PSU, which is supposed to be really quiet.

So would (let's say) 5 fans all undervolted to 5v each still be quiet? Or do I /have/ to remove some, even at that speed, to achieve a better silence/cooling ratio?

I've never tried going without an intake fan, because I don't know how effective "negative pressure" will do in drawing fresh air into the case.
Also, I might have 4 HD's in the bottom rack (I believe that its capacity is 4 anyway) so that HD/PSU chamber fan might be needed, albeit undervolted.

Thanks again!

DarkScythe · Post by **DarkScythe** » Thu Feb 14, 2008 6:41 am

Okay, I did some more research, and from reviews by others and the SPCR article, I'm pretty sold on the Scythe Ninja Rev B. I'm not sure how good the bundled fan is though, so I don't know if I should swap it out for a Scythe S-FLEX or Nexus fan.

I'm still deciding between the Accelero S1 Rev2 or the S2, it's $17 and $24 on Newegg, $7 difference. To go with that, is the turbo module any good/quiet? Or should I ignore it and buy another Scythe S-FLEX/Nexus fan to strap onto it?

After that, I suppose I'll try leaving out the intake fan.. Also leaving out the top fan. I'll have 2 more Scythe/Nexus fans, one in the rear exhaust vent and one in the HD cage. I can either aim the CPU fan to blow out the top vent of the P182, or aim it at the exhaust fan, but I don't know which is better yet.

I also don't know what voltages to undervolt everything to. 5v might be a little too low for some of the fans I think.. or am I mistaken?

Post by **NeilBlanchard** » Thu Feb 14, 2008 9:48 am

Hello,

The bundled fan on the Ninja (lately) is excellent: it is either the 800 or 1200RPM Slipstream. These are probably the quietest fans at the moment.

You should definitely use the Thermalright S775 backplate, as the stock push pins are barely adequate for the stock Intel cooler, let alone a large and relatively heavy heatsink like the Ninja.

DarkScythe · Post by **DarkScythe** » Thu Feb 14, 2008 10:06 am

Thanks for the info, so it would be recommended to use the bundled fan (at full blast or undervolted?) rather than buy a separate fan?

Also thanks for the link to that kit, I was looking all over for it. Does Newegg have a similar kit? It's kind of dumb to order just one item from another site while every other part is coming from Newegg..

Still, with so many fans, am I achieving a good balance of cooling/noise or do you guys recommend I kill off another fan (and where)?

Post by **NeilBlanchard** » Thu Feb 14, 2008 10:20 am

Hello,

I would control the fan, maybe by using a header on the motherboard and the BIOS settings. The fan can go on the Ninja, or in place of the rear exhaust fan.

NewEgg does not have that bracket, AFAICT.

Aris · Post by **Aris** » Thu Feb 14, 2008 2:24 pm

5 fans = Too Many Fans

Maximum of 4:

PSU
CPU
VGA
Exhaust

tehcrazybob · Post by **tehcrazybob** » Thu Feb 14, 2008 3:42 pm

Usually, a fan suggestion on this site comes with the implicit advice to use it undervolted. Very rarely is a full-speed fan called for.

I just have a few comments that either haven't been made, or need to be reiterated:

First, you don't want the Copper Ninja, you just want the Ninja. It costs and weighs half as much and the difference in performance will be negligible.

Second, the Accelero S1 is worth the few dollars more over the S2. The heatsink isn't significantly larger, but with twice as many heatpipes it'll be more efficient. If you use an 8800gt or cooler card, you will probably be fine with passive cooling. Otherwise, you might strap an undervolted fan on it.

Third, you can indeed get that retention bracket from Newegg.

Finally, I'd like to comment on the fans. In reality, you can probably get away with one fan on the CPU heatsink and one acting as case exhaust - the Accelero should be fine with just a bit of airflow, and the PSU fan will happily take care of your hard drives. Both the CPU and exhaust fan can be run on 7v.

You seem awfully concerned with temperatures - don't just go overkill on the fans to take care of things, though. Run a program like SpeedFan and actually watch your temps. If the video card is running hot, add a fan to it at 5v or 7v. If the CPU is hot, raise the voltage on the CPU or case fan. If the motherboard is hot, raise the voltage on the case fan. You don't have to guess and hope; you can actually watch things and make sure there are no problems. If everything is going well, you could even try removing the CPU fan - Ninjas near a case exhaust fan are often run fanless.

On one final note, if you haven't yet used a Core 2 Duo, you are in for a surprise. If you want to overclock for the fun and challenge, that's fine, but don't expect to gain much performance. In processor benchmarks, of course, overclocking will make a substantial difference, but in real life tasks there will be limits elsewhere in your system. I have an E6550 at stock speed, and I can't manage to hit 100% CPU with any real-world task. Not even the usual heavyweights like WinRAR, video encoding, rendering, or gaming (granted, only on a 7600gs). The only way I can hit 100% is with number crunching programs that depend only on RAM and CPU, like SuperPi, Distributed.Net, and Folding.

So ask yourself why you're overclocking. If it's for fun, fine. If it's for performance reasons, you'll be adding a large amount of extra heat and not getting anything tangible in return.

Bluefront · Post by **Bluefront** » Thu Feb 14, 2008 4:14 pm

DarkScythe.....there is plenty of controversy both here and other places concerning HD temps. I try to keep all mine <35C. This normally requires a fan very close to the drives. The exhaust fans at the rear of the case, wont normally keep a drive close to the front of the case, nearly cool enough for me.

There was a Google study about HD temps, and drive failures. It claims that warmer drives last longer. I don't buy it in the slightest. I have never had a drive failure since I can remember. And I keep my drives very cool compared to others on this forum.

cmthomson · Post by **cmthomson** » Thu Feb 14, 2008 4:33 pm

I'm not as aggressive as Bluefront regarding HDD temperatures; anything well under 50C is a good target. I keep my own drives around 40C. Most desktop disks are rated at 50-55C.

One thing to note about the Google paper is that it refers to server-class disks, which have significantly different construction from desktop or notebook class disks, especially in the bearing construction. Server-class disks are designed for 24/7 spinning and activity. Desktop class disks are designed for 24/7 spinning but sporadic activity. Laptop class disks are designed for regular spindown/unload.

DarkScythe · Post by **DarkScythe** » Thu Feb 14, 2008 6:20 pm

Extremely informative, thanks a huge bunch guys, I really appreciate it.

This is the second system I'm building so far in my life, my first (and current) one has made me very happy as it's lasted over 5 years and runs very well thanks to good research and helpful pointers from people in choosing good quality parts.

I am overclocking for two reasons, first of which is to get my feet wet, and second is just to gain a minor bonus (if possible - grab an e8500 for the price of an e8400, something like that.) If it doesn't turn out well, I'm fine with leaving it at 3-3.2GHz as it should still be over a 100% improvement from my current Athlon XP 2600+

This is also my first major attempt at a "performance" silent PC, but as always I'm afraid of high temps and will probably go overboard "just to be safe."

From what I've gathered so far, my best bet so far is:
CPU:
Scythe Ninja Rev B + Thermalright LGA775 backplate + Undervolted fan (Which one is still up in the air - the stock one that comes with the Ninja or buy a separate Scythe s-flex/Nexus 120mm fan) although I don't know if it should be 5v or 7v. I don't have any experience with controlling fan speeds so I'm unsure how that works.

VGA:
Accelero S1 Rev 2 + possibly some sort of fan.
The Turbo module is slimmer and less expensive than a full fledged extra 120mm fan but I can't recall atm how it performs, I need to re-read SPCR's review of it.

Exhaust:
Scythe s-flex or nexus 120mm fan undervolted to 5v? 7v?

And hope the Seasonic S12II's fan covers the 4HDs in the lower chamber?

Intake and Top fans seem to be out the window so far.
This sounding like a plan yet?

Sorry for being a noob - I'm trying to learn all the ins and outs fairly quickly and I might stumble over a few things.
Thanks for bearing with me.

tehcrazybob · Post by **tehcrazybob** » Thu Feb 14, 2008 7:30 pm

DarkScythe wrote:I am overclocking for two reasons, first of which is to get my feet wet, and second is just to gain a minor bonus (if possible - grab an e8500 for the price of an e8400, something like that.) If it doesn't turn out well, I'm fine with leaving it at 3-3.2GHz as it should still be over a 100% improvement from my current Athlon XP 2600+

Heh... No, it'll be more like 3-5 times as fast at stock speeds. That's what I was getting at - these things are so fast they outrun hard drives and even most video cards. I used to overclock, and it's fantastic fun. Go ahead and have some fun; play with it and see what you can do, but it's by no means necessary on a Core 2.

As for the rest of your post: I believe the review said the turbo module worked brilliantly. If you end up needing a fan on the video card, that'd be a great choice. Additionally, the power supply will easily handle the modest heat created by the hard drives.

You don't actually want top or intake fans in most situations, for two reasons. First, they are much closer to you than exhaust fans, so can be more readily heard. Second, intake fans make a fair bit more noise than exhaust fans - for some reason, having the grill upwind makes more noise than having it downwind.

All in all, I think you're getting there. If you're looking for help undervolting, either buy a fan speed controller or take a peek at the SPCR guide on the subject.

DarkScythe · Post by **DarkScythe** » Fri Feb 15, 2008 10:27 am

I believe that guide is a means to hardwire 12/7/5v to your fans, but is that really the best course? It seems to be the simplest as you just set it, plug it in and go nuts, but how about actually controlling how much juice it gets on-the-fly?

My friend believes I need to mention that I will be using an 8800GT, although I'm not sure it tips the scales in any way. I did re-read the Accelero S1 review and I think I'll get the turbo module just for insurance but undervolt it as low as I can - 5v? Is that even possible with the turbo module?

He also has a Nexus 120mm I can grab so that'll run full speed at the exhaust I think, and the Scythe Ninja's Slipstream fan will point towards it to get a push-pull going. I thought the S-flex was a better fan than the slipstream though, or am I mistaken? And what should I undervolt the CPU fan to?

Also with the tip about blocking off the top vent with foam, I don't have any.. would anything work, or is foam required simply because it absorbs noise?

DarkScythe · Post by **DarkScythe** » Mon Feb 18, 2008 10:03 pm

Okay, I've run into a snag..

The Accelero S1 Rev B appears to be out of stock virtually everywhere.
This includes Newegg, where all my other parts are coming from, and their ETA is March 4th.. that's a long time.

Does anyone know where else reputable that has it in stock?
I found a site called ncixus.com which is the US branch of ncix.com, dubbed Canada's Newegg. It supposedly has a bunch of parts I need from Newegg in stock, including the Accelero S1, and most are cheaper if not for the nutty shipping costs. Unfortunately I don't know how good the US division is, as a quick google search turned up some poor reviews. Most users complained that the site would list items in stock until you actually placed an order, at which point it will tell you the item is backordered, and charge you anyway. Anyone know anything about these guys (US branch, not the Canadian one) or have a suggestion on other places to buy?

HeatsinkFactory and FrozenCPU do not carry the Accelero's, which is a shame since I've ordered from them in the past.

Also, I just noticed, crazybob linked to Newegg's LGA775 bracket here http://www.newegg.com/product/product.a ... 6835999351 but it's a different product than the one originally linked by NeilBlanchard here http://www.sidewindercomputers.com/lgbowiscsp.html

Is there a difference in their performance? The Bolt-Thru kit looks to be more secure than the retention bracket..

Anyway, thanks again.

nycxandy · Post by **nycxandy** » Mon Feb 18, 2008 10:32 pm

DarkScythe wrote:Okay, I've run into a snag..

The Accelero S1 Rev B appears to be out of stock virtually everywhere.
This includes Newegg, where all my other parts are coming from, and their ETA is March 4th.. that's a long time.

Does anyone know where else reputable that has it in stock?

SVC has the Accelero S1 Rev. 2 for $27.99 + S&H.

The site is svc dot com. I can't post any links yet since this is my first post.

Also, resellerratings dot com is a good site that provides you store ratings by consumers.

CyberDog · Post by **CyberDog** » Mon Feb 18, 2008 10:47 pm

Hi

I advice you for some mods to do for P182

First that top vent. You can block it with tings like socks (yes, those things you wear on your feet...) or what ever thick material. Cardboard or similiar isn't good.

Second, you want to cover those vents around PSU with something like tape. This prevent short circuit of air so that all air what PSU draws passes HDD:s.

Third, remember to do those filterdoor mods.

You can use your motherboard to control the fans or speedfan program if it is supported. Other way you can have controller device or do the wire tricks. I have always done the wire tricks because my current board doesn't support speedfan or chances fanspeeds. But those scythe fans at 800 RPM:s are probably quiet enough for you. Just try and listen.

Conroy · Post by **Conroy** » Tue Feb 19, 2008 5:50 am

DarkScythe wrote: The Accelero S1 Rev B appears to be out of stock virtually everywhere.
This includes Newegg, where all my other parts are coming from, and their ETA is March 4th.. that's a long time.

You could always get the ECS 8800gt which includes an accelero s1 and lets you keep your warranty.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.a ... 6814134035

Speaking of the warranty, you may want to wait till March 4th anyway while you use the card with the stock cooler for a few weeks to make sure it's working okay first.

Post by **NeilBlanchard** » Tue Feb 19, 2008 10:22 am

Greetings & welcome to SPCR!

nycxandy wrote:The site is svc dot com. I can't post any links yet since this is my first post.

DarkScythe · Post by **DarkScythe** » Tue Feb 19, 2008 10:25 am

I did remember checking SVC before, but I think I ruled them out either because they were out of stock last time I checked, or they were more expensive than Newegg. $4 isn't too much though, so I may consider them, but recent reviews about SVC aren't very comforting. It's essentially hit or miss, as some people get what they need quickly, and others get screwed over and no reponse from SVC.

I don't know about putting socks into my case, but I do have some foam from a box IBM sent me when I sent my laptop in for repair some time ago, which might work. It's soft and black.

I don't quite understand what that second tip is though, what vents around the PSU?

As for that last mod, I'll need to find an xacto somewhere, but for now I'll leave it as-is until I find one.

I know the mobo I'm getting (GA-EP35-DS3P) is able to control 2 fans via software but I've been hearing that recent BIOSes have been mucking with it, so I'm not sure. I was just thinking of picking some voltages and hardwiring them and then forget about it.

As far as the ECS one goes, I've heard terrible things about their cards so I'm steering clear of them. I'm planning on getting either an EVGA or XFX card, as their warranties cover third-party heatsink installations.

Waiting until March isn't a really viable option for me either, unfortunately.

CyberDog · Post by **CyberDog** » Tue Feb 19, 2008 10:49 am

I meant those holes what you see on the left picture at bottom of a case http://www.silentpcreview.com/article249-page3.html