My Shopping List

ZircularLogic · Post by **ZircularLogic** » Sun Feb 17, 2008 7:03 pm

I've been lurking for a while, reading the articles and forums while I build my shopping list. My budget is the biggest driver, but I've attempted to choose the right fundamentals so that I have the best chance of translating some sweat equity into lower noise. This machine will be for boring things and very casual gaming while I'm around, Folding the rest of the time. So I guess I'll just tell you what I've chosen so somebody can tell me how badly I've done.

CPU - Intel E8400 - (Chosen on the premise that it should provide decent performance-per-watt.)

MoBo - Abit IP35-E - (Rebate, wohoo!)

CPU Cooler - Scythe Ninja Plus - (The Ninja seems to be well-regarded around here. Don't know about the stock fan, though.)

Video Card - BioStar GeForce 8400GS - (Decent performance for my meager needs, passively cooled, Nvidia has a good reputation for supporting Linux.)

PSU - Antec TruePower Trio - (Little brother of PSUs that were among those recommended here.)

Case - Rosewill R6ARK-BK - (Arguably the "achilles heel" of the whole system. I already know the stock 120mm fan is junk. Maybe replace the fan and dremel the turbulence-inducing mesh grate? The main reason I did choose it is that it's on the tall and wide side of "mid-tower", providing room for that tall sink and decent air flow.)

Storage - Samsung HD250HJ - (Read about that one on the forums, price seemed very reasonable.)

Ram, networking, optical...you probably don't care.

The way I see it, this is a good start for less than $650 all-in after rebates and discounts. I'm going to have to do something about that case fan, and I'm probably going to want to soft-mount the HDD somehow. I'm also going to have to resist the urge to overclock that processor to 4GHz so that I have even more heat to worry about! That could be tough, though.

So what do you think? Not bad? Missed the boat?

Post by **NeilBlanchard** » Sun Feb 17, 2008 8:34 pm

Hello & welcome to SPCR,

The Ninja's stock fan is pretty darn good -- probably a 1200RPM Slipstream, though hopefully a 800RPM.

I'd get a SeaSonic, or Fortron Source "Green" PSU -- the 300watt is the best value PSU I know of and it is efficient and very quiet ($37 shipped):

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.a ... 6817104031

Is this the case you are referring to?

If so, the front intake, through the bezel is probably poor. This Rosewill case might be better ventilation, though the 0.5mm steel is suspect. (It's really too bad NewEgg stopped carrying the Evercase 4252! It was/is a great, inexpensive case.)

ZircularLogic · Post by **ZircularLogic** » Mon Feb 18, 2008 2:19 pm

I appreciate the feedback! Yes, that is the case I was talking about. I see what you mean about the intake ports on the front being a little sketchy. I guess it all depends on how much air it will need, and how much of a difference 0.3mm of steel thickness makes? I was also looking at a CoolerMaster case, but decided against if for reasons that escape me. This one I think: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.a ... 6811119115

All that mesh up front ought to flow air pretty well. But reading back through the reviews some people complain about noise because of the mesh. Catch 22? Maybe they're just blaming the case for the noise caused by their half dozen 5,000RPM fans?

Thanks for the PSU suggestion, too. I'm trying to build a little headroom into the power rating but then again, do I really want to pay electric bills on something that draws more than 300W?

And I take it Slipstream would be a good place to look for a fan to replace a lousy stock case fan? I probably ought to go read some more articles...

ZircularLogic · Post by **ZircularLogic** » Tue Feb 19, 2008 2:39 pm

OK, here's a general question for you: is it at all common for a large CPU fan to double as an exhaust fan? I'm just thinking that rather than having one fan on the exhaust and second fan on the CPU, it might be possible to run only the exhaust fan but create a duct that forces it to draw air directly from the CPU cooler. (I think I saw a picture of somebody's Dell that did something like this, but that one was in some way defective.) Either way that Ninja is going to be drawing warmed-up case air. The only real down-side would be lower air flow since the fan would be pulling rather than pushing. Maybe I'll see how the machine does in a "normal" configuration and then give it a shot with that Slipstream doing the work? I've got two thumbs and plenty of sheet plastic, so...

My other idle thought is that I should really see how that Wolfdale performs at factory clock but undervolted. That worked wonders for my little laptop, which is running at 1.6GHz and 1.020V, 100% stable and folding non-stop for a week. I've got the only fan in it fan running at its lowest setting and the CPU reports 44C or less. (Pentium M...Dothan core.)

bonestonne · Post by **bonestonne** » Tue Feb 19, 2008 5:15 pm

heh, i've got a Cooler Master Elite 330 out here, and the Catch 22 is real.

the front mesh lets out a lot of noise that would otherwise only be heard when a case is left wide open, but its mainly because of the lower front fan having a somewhat restrictive grill. i haven't had the chance to dremel or cut the grills out, so the backpressure creates a low tone, but its non-obtrusive, and if you have music playing, or even central air on, you'd never know the computer was on.

the filters on the front of the case are also somewhat marginal, i have to blow out the case soon, as its getting kinda bad inside [some fuzz is visible on my ninja].

my system has 3 fans in it, and i'm trying to work down to two, but i'm not sure the noise will improve.
----
i don't think that it would be all that great to use the CPU fan as the exhaust fan as well, only because there are parts of the case that i see as possibly left dead, with little or no airflow, but a few hot chipsets or a PCI card.

maybe though, something like the HR-01 + duct (the LGA775 model) would be more suitable? it would use air pressure to cool everything, but the only problem would be dust.

see: viewtopic.php?t=42469

ZircularLogic · Post by **ZircularLogic** » Thu Feb 21, 2008 6:22 am

Well, I ended up being bull-headed and got the original case. The guy in the big brown truck brought it yesterday with most of the other parts, so I've had a little time to inspect. I don't think the front grill is going to be that much of a problem, principally because it's BIG! Much larger than the impression I had from looking at the pics. (You more experienced folk may have had a better idea to begin with.) The other nice touch is that the hard drive rack does employ rubber grommets. While not a true soft mount, I would expect that to have somewhat of a damping effect, no? Finally, the exhaust fan. I pulled it off and found it to be labelled "Yate Loon", though I'll have to double check on the specific model number. (It's a 120mm.) The Abit instruction manual gives me the impression that there are rather extensive fan management options in the bios, which ought to allow for throttling if temperatures permit.

The Ninja should come today or tomorrow, and the CPU should get here tomorrow. Let's hope it works when I put all the parts in the box!

Post by **NeilBlanchard** » Thu Feb 21, 2008 10:05 am

Hello,

If you have a good pair of tin snips -- cut out that rear grill, and then use a file or a rotary tool to smooth the edges. You can use a wire grill, or not. If you can undervolt the Yate Loon, and it will be a decent fan.

ZircularLogic · Post by **ZircularLogic** » Fri Feb 22, 2008 4:19 pm

Note to anyone who cares: Don't use FedEx. Apparently the driver (who has my CPU) didn't want to finish his route this Friday evening. Tracking is marked both "Delivery exception: Incorrect Street Name" and "Customer not available or business closed." (Amazing that he would know that nobody's home when he can't find it.) I've been sitting here waiting since I got home at 4:30, both exceptions timestamped 5:21. I did call FedEx and they do have my correct address down to the letter. So I guess I'll get to build my computer...Monday? If the guy decides to remember where I live?

Sorry...irritated. This FedEx's second fail in a row for me, and I really planned to build this weekend. Maybe I'll try the distribution center tomorrow...

bonestonne · Post by **bonestonne** » Fri Feb 22, 2008 4:50 pm

i've had similar experience, but with brown actually. my original CPU...gone with the wind, and just recently, a pair of studio condenser mics...also, gone with the wind. surprisingly contrary to the 2GB of RAM that was delivered quite late for UPS.

but i will say, no kudos to fedex. they dropped off my RMA'd Skullcandy headphones by the garage, which was open, but didn't ring, knock, or leave any indication they were there past the package....sadly enough, its freezing out, and the original set broke from being cold...

but my UPS experience with my first condenser set was similar...only, they said no one was home, and i was eating dinner at the marked time...and you can see me from the front door.

do try the distribution center, they should know exactly where it is.

ZircularLogic · Post by **ZircularLogic** » Sat Feb 23, 2008 8:31 am

Nope, waste of time.

"Oh, this is a ground package. They're [20 miles across town] and I don't know if they're open on Saturday. But you can call the 1-800 number [again] and see."

1-800 number: "I'm sorry, I don't think I can help you at this time. Please try again later."

Actually, I've learned that Priority Mail beats the other carriers every time. You can't track it directly but it's usually faster, usually cheaper, and a heck of a lot more reliable.

ZircularLogic · Post by **ZircularLogic** » Mon Feb 25, 2008 7:09 pm

Well, she's running! (Found out FedEx wasn't going to even try to deliver my chip today, so I just went and got it from the facility.) So far things are looking good on the noise side. It makes a heck of a whoosh when starting up but quiets down to a dull whir as the fans spin down. One in particular is mostly to blame...either the power supply or the exhaust fan...but I've been too busy fumbling around Ubuntu to investigate it. And at the rate I'm going, this fumbling around business could last a long, long time.

Post by **NeilBlanchard** » Mon Feb 25, 2008 8:27 pm

Hello,

It is probably the PSU's fan that is making the startup "whoosh" and this is a good thing: it makes sure that the fan gets spinning, and then the voltage ramps way down, below the starting voltage. So, it can idle at a lower voltage than it can start at -- so don't worry a second more!

What PSU did you end up with, BTW?

ZircularLogic · Post by **ZircularLogic** » Tue Feb 26, 2008 6:44 am

I stuck with that Antec. I used one of the online power consumption utilities to estimate current load and load with possible future upgrades, which told me 300W might be a little short on head room.

As for noise, one of the fans does continue to drone while the system idles. My bet is on turbulence at the exhaust fan grill, which I didn't want to remove without listening to it first. Could be wrong, though.

I think I might suck it up and load XP on the thing tonight so that I can get access to cpu temperatures and do a little load testing. (Getting the Linux tools to work hasn't gone so well.) My only real hardware concern ATM is making sure the heat sink is seated and working properly. I **think** I got it installed right but it's not what I would call rock-solid. There's a mm or two of play measured at the top, which could be mounting or it could be flex in the mobo. Temps and prime will tell the story.

Plekto · Post by **Plekto** » Tue Feb 26, 2008 5:21 pm

I always Dremel the grilles out in the front and back. The turbulence isn't the big deal, IMO, as is the restriction in airflow and back-pressure that they cause. The fans work harder, spin slower, and move less air. All due to OSHA regulations that nanny-ize the fan openings in case you are the one in a thousand who is too stupid to know how to screw in a wire fan grille.

Yes, it will require a full disassembly to do it, sorry. There's just way too much metal dust flying around. But you'll immediately notice a bit less noise and way more airflow. Case temps dropped 4C in my case just by doing this.

ZircularLogic · Post by **ZircularLogic** » Tue Feb 26, 2008 5:56 pm

Aww, you mean I can't send metal flakes all over my brand new computer guts? Where's the spirit of adventure? That certain...je nai sais rien?

OK...in all seriousness I think I'll have to upgrade the heat sink mounting anyway, which would be an excellent time to dremel the grills.

I'm sitting here typing with the new rig at my feet, folding away on both cores, and I have to say that I'm really pleased with this thing. Not only does it haul at stock speeds, but the only evidence that it's even running is a gentle whir from the CPU fan. The hard drive seeks are audible but dull, the power supply is barely doing anything, and the temps are well within limits (at least as far as can be trusted given the temp reading issues with Wolfdales). The BIOS is showing me a stable 49C on the CPU and the exhaust air is barely above room temperature. Happy guy right here!

ZircularLogic · Post by **ZircularLogic** » Sat Mar 01, 2008 3:43 pm

OK, one last post with a final declaration: Silence Achieved!

A couple of steps were necessary to kill the last of the noise vs. what I thought was a quiet baseline system.

First, I absolutely had to soft-mount the hard drive. The HD250J does vibrate noticeably when bolted to the hard drive cage, even with the rubber grommets. (The whole case resonated at times...bad!) No amount of adjusting helped, so I did away with the cage entirely and laid the HDD on some padding in the bottom of the case, in front of the vent. I'll secure it with some elastic, but this certainly does the trick as long as I don't try to move the case. The beauty of it is that I can't here it...AT_ALL! Seeks are nearly inaudible, and there isn't even a hint of vibration. HD temps are currently 35C, but can be had as low as 25C...more on that next.

The second thing I did was experiment with my fans. The baseline setup involved the stock fan (Yate Loon D12SH-12) spinning at 1200RPM, which is as slow as the BIOS will spin it. Meanwhile, the 1200RPM Slip Stream was sitting on the Ninja and doing about the 600RPM minimum. Loaded core temperatures with that setup were about 43-45C below thermal throttling. (Based on info others here have dug up, that's about 50-52C for a E8400.) Unplugging the CPU fan yielded about a 3 degree rise, which remained the same when removing it entirely. But that blasted case fan was still still producing all the noise! So I figured, what the heck. Swap fans and see what happens.

Since the Slip Stream is a 1200RPM MAX fan and the Yate, apparently, is a 2400RPM fan, I set the BIOS to reference it to the CPU and idle around 800RPM. Much to my surprise, that 800RPM Slip Stream combined with nearby PS fan pulling about the same keeps the core within 1-2C of the Yate making 4x the noise. It's Folding on both cores right now and hanging at 41C below the throttling limit, or ~54C. (Core Temp will tell you 64C but the research indicates that it assumes a Tj-max about 10C higher than it really is.) And keep in mind that this is all after having OC'd to the highest processor speed that I could manage on the 1.225V printed on the CPU box. That's 3645GHz with CPU-Z reporting 1.208V loaded.

Alas, we're heading into spring and summer so it'll take a bit more work on my part to keep the processor adequately cool in a warmer room. Dremelling the grills as we discussed above is a no-brainer for a system configured like this. I also need to get one or two more slipstreams (or better) to go on the Ninja and, if necessary, the case intake.

The bottom line is, I didn't even know what quiet system was really like until today (despite thinking otherwise a couple of times.) Many thanks!