New Gaming System

[Shadout]

Still a few weeks from getting a new PC, but I thought I might as well start to get a few advices.
Sorry for the long read, I hope some will get through it

First of all, some information about the usage and goals for the system.

- Gaming PC. It needs some horsepower inside! E.g. I want to be able to run games at high resolution etc. draining the PC for all its worth
- Beside gaming its used for usual stuff, work, study, movies, music and whatever.
- Quiet. Not silent, which is hardly possible for the hardware I want, 'reasonably quiet' is enough, which means very quiet when not gaming, and not ramping up too much when gaming either (more about that further down).
My current PC's noise annoys me a lot, but I don't think I'm particularly sensitive to noise otherwise (though I guess the less noise your PC make the more sensitive you get ^^).
=> Low noise, but not by compromising on speed.

- I'm not much of a DIY guy, so silence should come through good components, not me having to alter the components extremely. I'll probably do a few easy alterations where it helps enough (MikeC's Filter mod, maybe hard drive soft-mounting and such).
I'm not going to build the computer myself either, not daring to screw around too much with expensive hardware

Cant tell an exact budget limit, especially since hardware prices are so different between US and EU.
Beside Ill rather spent a little more on getting quality and less noise, so budget is flexible.
But of course, I dont want to spend money on useless stuff either.

The GPU is my main concern. I havent picked one yet, which obviously makes it hard to know exactly how it will be. Waiting for the upcoming release of new GPU's by Nvidia and AMD in 2 weeks.
Its fair to assume those GPU's will get hot, and likely there wont be any third party cooler solutions in the beginning.
All in all, depending on the cards (which little is known about) they might be quite noisy, which in turn might ruin the purpose of quieting everything else in the PC.
However, given time, I'm sure better cooler solutions than the pre-configured one will turn up even for those new cards, but I'll update this thread when more is known about the cards, and how they affect the build.


A few questions:
- Considering the "airflow issues" in P182 some has talked about, will it be able to keep some of the quite hot components cool enough? (especially the GPU).
- Do you think a Scythe Kama Bay is worth it?

- Any comments on best best airflow, e.g. placement of fans etc.?

This is the fan setup I'm imagining so far:

3 (or 4) Slipstream 1200RPM, with Fan Mates connected, turned down to whatever fits me (hopefully 800-1000 RPM).
Are there any other fans that might work better for me given the setup and what I'm trying to achieve?
Placement of the fans:

1: Slipstream for Rear exhaust.
(The top exhaust will be sealed)
2: One Slipstream at the CPU heatsink (TRUE-120), blowing toward the rear outtake)
3: One Slipstream in the lower case between PSU and hard drive.
4: And then considering a Kama Bay for intake on the front, pulling air to the CPU and maybe GPU.
What is best, a Kama Bay fan or a fan placed in front of the upper hard drive chamber, or none of them?

And the actual components:

CPU: Q9450
CPU Cooler: Thermalright Ultra-extreme 120

MB: Gigabyte GA-X48-DQ6

Memory: Mushkin DDR2 PC2-1000 4GB CL5 Kit HP2 (2x2GB)

PSU: Corsair HX620

Hard drive: WD6400AAKS

Sound card: X-Fi XtremeGamer -or- Asus Xonar DS (which is slightly hard to find in any shops here yet)

Case: Antec P182

DVD: Samsung S203

Windows Vista Home Premium 64-Bit

4 Slipstream 1200 RPM (1 might be unused depending on setup, getting it just in case though, since its difficult to get those around here, and I might have to order them in UK it seems) + 4 Fan Mate2's (Considered a front bay for controlling them, but couldnt really find one I like).


The Q9450 is a bit too expensive, and Ive been considering a Dual core instead, which is still fine for gaming, but I believe I might regret a dual core when it comes to multitasking (I often have plenty of stuff running at the same time).

I realize X48 motherboards are hardly worth it over X38, but for some reason they cost the same here (they are both damn expensive).
P45 motherboards should be out before I buy the system, so if it ends up with decent prices I might go for Gigabyte GA-P45-DQ6 instead, but so far it seems like it wont be cheaper.

Also been looking at the Enermax Modu82+ 625W, but it doesnt seem possible to get anywhere around here. I guess HX620 is still a good choice.
I'm slightly worried about the power usage, although 625W surely is a lot more than needed, the concern is that the fan might spin up to its high speed (which in the spcr review was set around 400W) on the Corsair PSU in this system?


Short version:
Any advice on the Fan setup, which fans and where?

Is a Kama Bay useful or not?

PSU: is HX620 best option, will it ramp of the fan in my setup? (which likely might go higher than 400W sometimes)

P182 - Will it be able to get enough fresh air to a very hot GPU? (even when removing the front filters blocking air flow)

Any other advices on the components and anything else is more than welcome.

[thejamppa]

Currently E8400 outguns nearly in quad core in almost any game. Just my 2snt's.

[Modo]

3 Slipstream 1200RPM, with Fan Mates connected, turned down to whatever fits me (hopefully 800-1000 RPM).

SpeedFan is cheaper (free), and automatic. Way better than manual stuff if the mobo + OS support it.

The Q9450 is a bit too expensive, and Ive been considering a Dual core instead, which is still fine for gaming, but I believe I might regret a dual core when it comes to multitasking (I often have plenty of stuff running at the same time).

If you have multiple CPU-intensive tasks running at the same time, the Quad would be the way to go. Or if you do graphics or sound processing. (That's not the same as having multiple applications open and doing nothing at the same time.) At the moment, a Core 2 Duo would be better for gaming, since you could have higher clocks. The added benefit would be lower CPU temps.

I realize X48 motherboards are hardly worth it over X38, but for some reason they cost the same here (they are both damn expensive).

Actually, they're both not really worth it over P35 boards — the gains are marginal, except for extreme overclocking (and even that is iffy, as shown by AnandTech a couple of times). If you buy before P45 becomes available, you'll be perfectly fine with a high-end P35 board.

Also been looking at the Enermax Modu82+ 625W, but it doesnt seem possible to get anywhere around here. I guess HX620 is still a good choice.

If you have a large enough power margin, the fan shouldn't speed up very often. There's hardly a way around that, since a fan swap will be dangerous if your system draws a lot of power. Solution? Get a more efficient CPU and GPU or a monster PSU.

As to the GPU choice, it's always between power (9800GX2, supposedly not very noisy at idle) versus silence (9600GT, fanless solutions available). Maybe the NVidia GT200b will change that (that's the 55nm revision that will be available later this year), but I wouldn't bet on it, since games become more demanding as hardware gets faster.

My approach is simple: Get the most powerful fanless graphics card I can, and swap it for another one of "the same" once a year. It's less expensive than buying the high-end stuff and trying to make it quiet. And it still allows me to play games from a year ago with settings maxed out. The added benefit is, many of those "old" games can then be found, with all add-ons, in the bargain bin.

[Shadout]

Currently E8400 outguns nearly in quad core in almost any game. Just my 2snt's.

Ye, I know it does, however gaming isnt everything, and I often have multiple software running in the background at the same time (also when gaming).
Most reviews comparing Dual Core and Quad Core unfortunately focus on running only 1 program at a time.

Been considering the pro's and con's between Dual and Quad for a while now, since the Quad costs more than double of a Dual core here.
And I'm still not sure.

But I have a feeling I might end up hating the dual core in 1 year So right now its a Quad.

[thejamppa]

Currently no Windows Vista version can effectively use Quad core. Amount of background program's if affected by amount of Ram not by amount of cores currently.

However some programs can use effectively quad like folding program's and photoshop. However Q9450 is fine choice and seems you have good budget then there is no reason not to go quad.

[Shadout]

Solution? Get a more efficient CPU and GPU or a monster PSU.

It actually looks like Enermax Modu82 625w is starting to show up here, but the prices are slightly insane ($80 more than 620HX).
So its probably the Corsair, unless there are some other good alternatives.

Get the most powerful fanless graphics card I can, and swap it for another one of "the same" once a year. It's less expensive than buying the high-end stuff and trying to make it quiet.

Problem is, I dont want to run 1 year old games, I want to run the new ones ^^
Buying a new GPU every year isnt that cheap either, when a high end card can often last 2 years.
Not that I have decided yet. The upcoming AMD cards looks like they might require less power than their current offerings, so I bet those can be made either silent or at least low noise. The new Nvidia cards however seems like monsters.
Time will tell.

About the motherboards it depends on what they offer.
Gigabyte P35-DQ6 costs pretty much the same as the X48 version of the same board. Its maybe $30 difference. The cheaper P35s usually are cheaper for other reasons than just the fact they are P35 boards.
Wouldnt be first time I wonder why I a few years earlier decided to save ten dollars on some feature I'm suddenly missing.

Vista: Shouldn't both RAM and Cores affect it. 4 GB should be enough for most stuff for a while. Seems weird (and bad!) if Vista isnt effectively using Quads (although you could argue Vista isnt effectively using anything ).
I plan to dualboot with XP 32-bit btw, for all the stuff Vista has problems running.

Thanks for the comments so far. Manages to make me more confused about what to pick again

[thejamppa]

Vista is not using quads core but its overusing memory per say. Since it indexes most searches and hypersearch which it use, does use lot's of ram, in default assumption what you searched last time will be needed soon again so it uses well ram.

Vista search functions are very good. However we may need to wait Vista SP2 or even Windows Seven before Windows can and will use multiple cores effectively.

[Shadout]

Afaik, cant you disable indexing and SuperFetch in Vista?
XP has indexing too, which is also often recommended to disable.

Just before this turns into Vista vs. XP Anyone got something to say about the fan choices and placements?

SpeedFan is cheaper (free), and automatic. Way better than manual stuff if the mobo + OS support it.

Hm. Not sure about this. To me it seems as a worse solution to rely on software control. Bugs, crashes and whatever which could screw things up.
Also not the easiest to set up. Ive triedSpeedFan on other computers, without too much luck (old computers though).

[Modo]

Problem is, I dont want to run 1 year old games, I want to run the new ones ^^

In that case, add a water-cooling solution to your budget, or you won't get anywhere near silent... (No, I'm not being sarcastic.)

Buying a new GPU every year isnt that cheap either, when a high end card can often last 2 years.

I don't know about prices where you live, but around here, a fanless, slightly factory-overclocked 9600GT can be had for less than 1/3 of the price of a 9800GX2, and for about 1/2 of the price of a 9800GTX. That's with guaranteed dead silent operation, and before adding the cost of "fixing" the cooling of a high-end card for quiet operation. You do the math...

About the motherboards it depends on what they offer.
Gigabyte P35-DQ6 costs pretty much the same as the X48 version of the same board. Its maybe $30 difference. The cheaper P35s usually are cheaper for other reasons than just the fact they are P35 boards.
Wouldnt be first time I wonder why I a few years earlier decided to save ten dollars on some feature I'm suddenly missing.

I see that point. Some things are indeed missed on my old, budget MSI board (NForce 2). Then again, how much will a budget P45 board cost in a year or two? (Yes, it is a similar argument to the one about graphics cards. Buy stuff you need, and keep the money to maybe upgrade later, if need be.)

[Shadout]

My goal isnt near silent, just quiet enough to avoid getting insane (which my earlier PC's have been pushing me toward).

But ye, you are probably right the fastest cards will be too noisy (and too expensive, I would never buy a GX2, its performance gain was pretty bad for the extra cost).
Its about finding a sweet spot. A fanless GT is below my sweet spot though. I'll rather have a bit noise in trade of a bit more power.
And when it comes to the 9600GT, even the mid-end cards from AMD coming out might beat it in performance, with comparable price/watt/heat, so that card might be outdated for a new PC. Maybe one of those mid-end cards will be a nice pick then, but so far I'll just try to figure out all the other components

The choice of GPU wont really affect choice of any other components anyway (that's not entirely true, if rumored power saving features on the new Nvidia cards are correct, a nvidia motherboard might be worth considering, but thats a pretty huge IF).

By the way Modo, why do you prefer SpeedFan over Fan mates (beside the fact its free)?


And if anyone got some insight on choosing fans, airflow etc? (more explanation of what the specific questions are, in the first post) it would be highly appreciated.

[Modo]

The choice of GPU wont really affect choice of any other components anyway (that's not entirely true, if rumored power saving features on the new Nvidia cards are correct, a nvidia motherboard might be worth considering, but thats a pretty huge IF).

A new NVidia board might be useful for their new power-saving feature. It allows you to turn off the GPU (has to be NVidias) completely when you're not doing 3D stuff. It takes a couple of seconds to switch between modes, and can only be done manually, though.

By the way Modo, why do you prefer SpeedFan over Fan mates (beside the fact its free)?

You can tune SpeedFan to automatically vary fan speed, which is not possible when using Fan Mates. I found it pretty easy, and quite versatile (just RTFM ). You'd have to get a more sophisticated hardware controller to get the same capabilities. I wouldn't mind spending the money, but I don't like having knobs on my PC.

As to the case layout, I'd recommend the various threads on P18x builds in the Gallery forum. It's a popular case, so there are many examples of fan placement, as well as mods that can be used. The general layout is one exhaust fan at the back, and one intake fan at the lower front.

[Shadout]

Thanks. Ye, Ive been reading tons of those threads, but there doesnt seem to be any consensus on whether a Scythe Kama bay is of any use?
Or instead a fan placed at the upper hard drive chamber?
Thats pretty much the only thing I'm not sure about for the fan setup.
(well, other than which fans to pick, but Slipstream seems fine, even when running faster than 800 RPM?)

Been checking a bit more on motherboards, and might go for Gigabyte EX38-DS5 instead. In newer revisions it seems to be pretty much a DQ6 with another sticker on it.

Not fond of Nvidia MB's (people seems to have so many issues with the 750+ series), but ye, that power safe feature is neat.

[Modo]

Thanks. Ye, Ive been reading tons of those threads, but there doesnt seem to be any consensus on whether a Scythe Kama bay is of any use?
Or instead a fan placed at the upper hard drive chamber?

I guess you'll have to try it yourself. If there was just one good choice, I think it would be common. Maybe just having two fans arranged in a push-pull way is more important than their exact placement.

(well, other than which fans to pick, but Slipstream seems fine, even when running faster than 800 RPM?)

Definately get the 1200rpm version. You can still turn it down to speeds below 500rpm if your setup allows it. I think there's no harm in having some emergency rpms at your disposal.

[Shadout]

A few questions again.

Slipstream vs. S-Flex (maybe vs. something else) for the CPU cooler.
Some says Slipstream aren't as good as S-flex with high airpressure (e.g when placed on a heatsink), while others seems to think it doesnt make much difference
= I'm confused.

- Would it be better to get a S-Flex 1200 (or maybe 1600, both would be controlled one way or another) instead of a slipstream?

- Also, quite a few seems to change the standard fan coming with Kama Bay, but isnt the standard one good enough for the purpose (noise/intake CFM), since its one of Scythes own fans in the first place? (or do they use some crap with the Kama's)

[Modo]

Slipstream vs. S-Flex (maybe vs. something else) for the CPU cooler.
Some says Slipstream aren't as good as S-flex with high airpressure (e.g when placed on a heatsink), while others seems to think it doesnt make much difference
= I'm confused.

There seems to be a difference, both with a Slip Stream on heatsinks, as well as an intake. However, if you use quality heatsinks, especially ones with wide-spaced fins, the difference won't really matter (i.e. the temperatures in a quiet system still won't go anywhere near dangerous). Besides, the Slip Stream is rated at higher CFMs than the S-FLEX for similar speeds, so I'm not sure there is a real difference in the noise/CFM ratio.

Personally, I chose the S-FLEX because its bearing was rated so good. I just don't want to find out how a sleeve-bearing fan will sound after a year of daily use.

I don't really know about the Kama Bay, never used it.

[Shadout]

So I just realized you can get a Zalman ZM850-HP which should have the same fan as the 1000W MikeC has reviewed.
Both 1000W and 850W is of course tremendous overkill, but what was interesting about the 1000W in the review, was the lower noise around 400W usage (which might be possible to reach under _heavy_ load in my setup, but obviously what really matters is the temperature, not the 400W, so hard to say if it would be an issue).
So far I've not considered the Zalman 1000W PSU because of the high price for useless extra watts, but Zalmans 850W is only slightly more expensive than the 620HX.

Interested in knowing if anyone think a Zalman ZM850-HP might work well instead? While the review on the site says so, actual usage over time might have given another impression

And one fast question: Does it fit into the P182? (I'll try to find out the answer myself too of course, but if anyone knew right off, I might as well ask)

[Shadout]

So, most of the new GPUs came out (theoretically at least, still hard to get some of them).

Pretty sure I'll go for the 4870, quite good performance for the price, and slightly less of a power hog than the GTX280.
Not sure how far you can go down in fan speed with a 3.part heatsink on it, but considering it run insanely hot with the standard cooler AMD seems confident it can take those high temps :O

Here is the build I'm considering now, a few things has changed:

CPU: Q9450

CPU Cooler: Zigmatek S1283 (hopefully with a backplate bolt thru, although its nearly impossible to find one of those here)

MB: Gigabyte GA-X38-DS5 (or maybe DS4 depending on availability)

Memory: Mushkin DDR2 PC2-1000 4GB CL5 Kit HP2 (2x2GB)

GPU: HD4870 (havent decided brand yet, probably wont be in stock for a week or 2 - which ATi brands are usually best?)

GPU cooler: Accelero S1 r2 (with a Slipstream on it, or maybe an S-Flex for the longer life-time? not sure)
(or maybe Thermalright T-Rad^2 if they come out really soon)

PSU: Zalman ZM850-HP

Hard drive: WD6400AAKS

Sound card: Asus Xonar DX

Case: Antec P182

DVD: Samsung S203P

OS: Vista Home Premium 64-Bit

Various cooling stuff:
3-4 Slipstream 1200 RPM for case fans and GPU
Scythe S-Flex 1600RPM for CPU (obviously slowed down)
3 Fan Mate2's
Scythe Kama Bay (keeping the standard fan in it, it seems to be running so slow that it wont be louder than the other fans?)
Arctic MX-2 thermal paste

Any comments?

[thejamppa]

Brands differ very lightly from each others. Only by packaging warranties and customers service.

Asus and His have good reputation. Sapphire customers service has had some horror stories etc but generally Sapphire's cards are good.

[Shadout]

Thanks. Ye I know the cards are identical usually, so it was warranty, customer service etc I am concerned about

You know if any of them let you keep warranty even after replacing stock cooler? (I think XFX does so for nvidia cards). Sure you can just throw stock cooler back on and hope they dont mind, but its nice with a safe warranty policy if its possible to get one.

[thejamppa]

Sapphire, His and Asus cards that I have had warrancy policy has stated that removing cooler voids the warranty...