Advice Sought: Mom and Pop PC

[Kaizen]

Hi All

I really need some perspective in spec'ing up a machine for my parents who are really very lite PC users but need the standard features (email, web connectivity, MS Office compatibility etc.)

The reality is that the machine is probably going to have to last 8 years and moving them off Microsoft is very unlikely. I've considered Ubintu and MacOS but I'm too far away to be their tech support.

I also need to be conscious of price as they live in another country to me and won't let me buy the thing for them.

So, my basic thinking is as follows:
- Intel Core 2 Quad (Q6600)
- 4 GB of RAM
- 250 GB hard drive
- 256MB graphics card
- DVD read/write
- Existing 19" screen

Any thoughts would be great.

[Cistron]

Have you considered an ASUSEeeBox? Your suggestion is overkill square.

[maf718]

To save some cash I'd suggest a Core 2 Duo like an E7xxx or even E5xxx, and a mobo with integrated graphics, assuming they're not likely to want to play Crysis or anything. RAM is cheap at the moment so you may as well get the 4GB, even though they could cope with 2GB. A "mom and pop" system that will last eight years can be built very cheaply these days.

[QuietOC]

Have you considered an ASUSEeeBox? Your suggestion is overkill square.

If the EeeBox was closer to $100 it would be a good choice. Otherwise no.

Okay, my parent's current system:

Sempron LE-1250 $20
Foxconn A74MX-K $40
250GB Samsung S250 $40
2GB DDR2 800 $25
Used ATX w/ newer 300W In Win PS $25
Used DVD-ROM/CD-R free

$150 shipped

Any extra money spent is basically wasted. The hard drive is probably the best place to spend a little more (see below.)

But here we go:

Athlon X2 something $40
780G motherboard $70
640GB WD6400AAKS $70
4GB DDR2 800 $45
New Case/PS $50
DVD Burner $25

$300 shipped

I am not buying an Intel system for my parents right now, but I am getting my own $76 E5200 today!

[xan_user]

do your parents do A lot of rendering or something?

windows won't even see 4gb of ram.

way overkill and a lot to run.

[maf718]

XP 32bit will see 3.5gb of ram, Vista 64bit will see it all, it doesn't cost much more than 2gb, it consumes the same amount of electricity, and will help the PC to be future proof for eight years as the OP wants.

[xan_user]

I figured a 64 bit OS was out of the question for mom and pop, so i omitted the possibility of the OS seeing all of it.....but if mom and pop want a 64bit OS then, 4 GB is the way to go.

didn't mean ram was a power hog. The whole setup will cost more to run for those 8 years than one that geared for the user.(using my mom &pop as my only examples- they do email, surf and play solitaire...)

To me mom and pop pcs are usually a perfect candidate for pico psu's due to there lack of need for computing overhead.

[Kaizen]

Hi

Thank you all for the feedback. Some initial thoughts:
1) I can't build and ship the system as much as I'd love to due to some import constraints. Consequently the system has to be built or purchased in country.
2) This effectively rules out things like the Shuttle X27D, Asus EEE etc.
3) I have a PC that is still creaking along after 8 years and the only reason it's usable is it was really well spec'ed at the time of construction.
4) This is why I'm thinking of Vista-64 and the 4Gigs of RAM.
5) You're right, rendering is never going to happen
6) That's why I need another perspective.

Thanks again

[maf718]

@xan_user: Very true about the Pico PSU but they are also expensive to buy in the first place.

My point about the ram was that its only half a gig difference between what xp32bit sees and the full amount, so it doesn't really matter what version of Windows is used.

I agree the original spec was way over the top for a mom and pop pc, mine are still on a single core Athlon and 1 GB of ram! (I built it out of spare parts)

@Kaizan: I think a dual core will be enough for parents even in 8 years. I don't know what country you are talking about but most of the parts QuietOC mentioned above (or Intel equivalent) should be available there, just put it in a generic case etc.

[QuietOC]

1) I can't build and ship the system as much as I'd love to due to some import constraints. Consequently the system has to be built or purchased in country.
2) This effectively rules out things like the Shuttle X27D, Asus EEE etc.
3) I have a PC that is still creaking along after 8 years and the only reason it's usable is it was really well spec'ed at the time of construction.

The Asus EeeBox was obselete years before it was ever built.

So, get a cheap OEM PC box.

If it will be upgraded, I'd look for support for 16GB or more of RAM. This rules out most Intel-based systems.

Even after 8 years, I doubt quad core or even dual core will be very useful for most people. So, I still recommend an AMD X2 4850e/5050e/etc. + 780G system. If you really want Intel ask for a 4-series (G4x) or nVidia 9x00 chipset with a 45nm dual core (E5200/E7x00/E8x00). Or wait for the real desktop verson of Core i7.

[xan_user]

Hi

4) This is why I'm thinking of Vista-64 and the 4Gigs of RAM.


Thanks again

Vista will soon be replace with a new win OS.
imo stick with xp if they know that already, and you can upgrade to W7 after it comes out.

Remote assembly does complicate matters and I can see some logic in going with a lot of overhead room... where does it need to live?

I think the small price you pay upfront for the pico is payed back rather quickly in saved power cost.

XP pro (til W7)
4gb ram (ok it can't hurt)
dual core w/ xigmatek or ninja w 120mm(really cant see a need for quad for a mom and pop in the next 10 years.)
passive cooled 128-256mb video. (choose based quality over speed for longevity)
HDD flavor of the month. (SPCR...)
pico or other supper efficient psu from SPCR recommendations.

[lm]

Discrete GPU is totally overkill. Mobo integrated graphics are enough, and will be in the future too, as long as the system is capable of playing full hd video, which sets some lower limit to cpu power, but nothing big.

The smaller the number of components, the more likely it won't fail during the next 8 years, I think.

Also dual core should be enough, I mean, what do they do on that machine?

And the most important thing in making a system feel snappy in the long run is to have lots of RAM (and not to give super user rights to mom and pop, but I suppose that is pretty much out of the question).

[QuietOC]

Discrete GPU is totally overkill. Mobo integrated graphics are enough, and will be in the future too,

It is possible in eight years that everyone will want to run some future OS that really pushes the 3D hardware. The 8x5 shader proccessor 780G is likely the best of current IGPs for that future (including the GeForce 9400). But if that does happen who is to say even a Radeon HD 4670 would have enough power, or even be supported by the OS then?

And the most important thing in making a system feel snappy in the long run is to have lots of RAM (and not to give super user rights to mom and pop, but I suppose that is pretty much out of the question).

As someone who really needs 8+GB on my work machine (currently limited to 3GB due to crappy Intel chipset--thanks, Apple!) I doubt 4GB is going to slowing most home users down at all. My parents are using an XP laptop with 256MB of memory total and not complaining. However, memory should keep getting cheaper/bigger. So at least the potential to upgrade to >8GB should be considered.

Things to splurge on that are benefitial:

Storage speed (SSD>Velociraptor>WD6400AAKS)
IPC + clockspeed (i.e., Core 2 Duo E8600 and/or overclocking)
Memory -- not so much
Video -- no, even outputs connectors are in flux (DVI->HDMI->Displayport

[Cistron]

The Asus EeeBox was obselete years before it was ever built.

I'm quite curious whether you actually own one. If my mum can do office and internet work on a PIII, it should easily be done on an EeeBox.

1) I can't build and ship the system as much as I'd love to due to some import constraints. Consequently the system has to be built or purchased in country.
2) This effectively rules out things like the Shuttle X27D, Asus EEE etc.

I don't quite get the connection. An Asus EeeBox is a completely assembled system. Plug in mouse, keyboard, screen and ... weeheeee off ya go.
edit: oh I see, I guess it's not shipped to your parent's country.

[QuietOC]

The Asus EeeBox was obselete years before it was ever built.

I'm quite curious whether you actually own one. If my mum can do office and internet work on a PIII, it should easily be done on an EeeBox.

I recently bought the version with the 10" LED/LCD screen. Sure, It is useful. The 400Mz NEC Mobile Pro 900C it replaced was useful too (and a whole lot less power hungry--3-4W compared to 10-25W!!!) The $150 Sempron system is at least twice as fast as the Atom based Eee PCs and often much faster.

[Cistron]

Of course, I completely agree with you in terms of computing power. Some applications, however, run completely fine with less. The EeeBox is very quiet, small, doesn't have to be assembled and thus saves a lot of hassle.

[NeilBlanchard]

Hi,

I'd get them a 20" iMac with a 2 or 3 year Apple Care Protection Plan. No muss, no fuss.

[tehcrazybob]

Hi,

I'd get them a 20" iMac with a 2 or 3 year Apple Care Protection Plan. No muss, no fuss.

I second this. I've been looking at computers for both my parents and grandparents, and although I've looked at building dual-core 780g systems, I keep coming back to the iMac. It's a bit more expensive up-front, and it's not any faster than something I could build. It is, however, a lot more durable. Windows computers, even when they're built with high-quality components and carefully set up for security, need occasional software maintenance. Buy them a Mac and you'll spend a few days helping them adjust, and then never again have to help them with a computer problem.

I know people who run 8-year-old Windows computers which were very high-end when they were built. Some of the users are savvy enough that theirs still run very nicely, but the majority of those computers are slow, insecure, and annoying to use, no matter how well they were initially set up. I also know a few people running 8-year-old Macs; these computers run just as well as the day they were new, and have required almost no maintenance along the way.

Mac has gotten enough market share recently that almost any mainstream software is available in an OS X version. Put them behind a router and run them as unprivileged users, and you're set for a decade.

Whether you go with Windows or Mac, though, go with the slowest dual-core processor available, and an enormous stack of RAM. That'll give you a responsive computer, even if it's not very fast for long processing jobs. When non-techy people say they want a fast computer, what they really mean is they want a responsive computer.

[Kaizen]

While I absolutely love the idea of a Mic (my better half has one) the price combined with no tech support make this a non-starter.

[QuietOC]

I use a Core 2 Duo iMac everyday at work. Even the newest, fastest 24" iMac is obsolete. It is limited to 4GB max, and OSX is a huge memory hog. I am stuck with OSX at work, and there are no decent Apple products for the work I do. The Mac Pros are rendering workstations--hugely power inefficient for what I do--no faster than the iMac.

So, I have requested a new $1800 iMac. I hope 4GB of dual channel DDR2 800 will be a big improvement over my current single channel 3GB DDR2 667 (2GB is completely fail in OSX.) I would really like a Velociraptor or at least a WD6400AAKS in the new one, but neither is an option (but I could do it myself.)

My overclocked E2140 + P35 with 8GB of DDR2 800 Hackintosh was a huge improvement over any Apple machine you can buy for what I do. I tried to get my work to buy similar hardware to run OSX on, but they aren't keen on it.

The Mac Pros are decent if you do those few things that I and most people don't do. An iMac is fine for parents, but they are definitely already obsolete and quite expensive. Definitely, no, on the 8 year plan.

[qviri]

Hi,

I'd get them a 20" iMac with a 2 or 3 year Apple Care Protection Plan. No muss, no fuss.

Unless Apple doesn't offer service in the country in question.

3 year Apple Care also doesn't help a lot for a desired 8 year lifespan.

[QuietOC]

It's a bit more expensive up-front, and it's not any faster than something I could build. It is, however, a lot more durable... Buy them a Mac and you'll spend a few days helping them adjust, and then never again have to help them with a computer problem.

Apple actually uses many questionable components in their hardware. Do not expect 2+ years out of them. I have a lot of hardware and software related problems with my iMac, but I do know most OEMs probably have even worse hardware.

Something to consider might be an barebone system. I made an ASUS barebone for my mother-in-law a few years ago, and it has held up well.

[protellect]

I'd think about it like this; instead of spending 1000$ now, spend 500$ now, and 500$ in 4 years.

[Gojira-X]

Back in July, I helped sort out a PC for my mum, who is a food technology teacher, (my dad doesn't use computers).
Based on how she used the computer, I figured out that she needed the following:
1. Accessible USB ports,
2. Enough back USB ports for her peripherals,
3. SD card reader for her camera memory,
4. Windows OS (all of her nutritional programs run on windows),
5. Fairly Quiet,
6. relatively small size (if possible),
7. Wired Mouse with smooth movement,
8. Wired Keyboard with easily visible keys (mum has very short sight and can find it difficult to see the keys, when typing)
9. Large screen monitor.

Before looking for a PC to meet her requirements, I figured that a backlit keyboard and a gaming mouse would meet no.'s 7 and 8. The monitor was not really a problem as she quickly decided on a 22in TFT.

Requirement 1 relates to how easy it would be for her to insert her pendrive into the front USB port of the PC, baring in mine she can't bend or stretch much due to her back. Based on this, the only possible sizes of cases I could consider were reduced to: PC's in larger MIDI cases mounted on the floor OR a PC based on an ultra-small form factor.

I was considering building a PC for her, but as luck would have it, my brother found a deal on a brand new Acer Aspire L5100 ultra-compact PC with Windows Vista Home Premium and a 1 year on-site warranty. The warranty was think that swung it.
It's is not completely silent, but the noise it makes is completely drowned out by our Sky+ box. Furthermore, as the computer has a 500Gb HDD, TV Tuner, HDMI and Acer media centre software, mum has the option of using the computer as a HTPC when she gets her LCD TV. The only downer was the L5100 came with a wireless keyboard&mouse combo that also robs it of 1 rear USB port. In the end, my mum liked the keyboard and mouse enough so that we didn't have to change it.

The moral of the story is not to rule out the big box makers when sorting out a PC for your parents.

My advise to Kaizen would be to consider the Lenovo ThinkCentre M61e or A61e Ultra-Small Form factor PC or the Acer Aspire L5100 series.
Both sets of PC's ship with rather capable back-up and system restore software.
The Lenovo ThinkCentre units are supposedly designed with quietness in mind too. I have had good experience with the Acer warranty system (I will eventually explain) and the Lenovo warranty is supposed to be second to none.

[mx-5]

I find it amusing looking at the spec that are being mentioned. Quad core? 4GB? How would such a machine be any better than a Sempron or EEEPC for email/web/Office? And please define "obsolete". Does email stop working for an "obsolete" Core 2 Duo machine?

[QuietOC]

And please define "obsolete".

"640kB is more than anyone will ever need."

It is much more likely that lots of memory will be needed by common programs than multiple cores will be utilized by the same. The latter requires a lot of hard programming work, while the former only requires laziness!

[mx-5]

And please define "obsolete".

"640kB is more than anyone will ever need."

And how can you spec such a system today?

I'd think about it like this; instead of spending 1000$ now, spend 500$ now, and 500$ in 4 years.

I agree.

I say there's nothing wrong with the power of an eee box for mom/dad use, although it's priced higher than Semprons. I'd pay the premium for an eee box though because there's no assembly, no fluff. More power would be an iMac which is along the same idea. No fussing with hardware and better yet, no Windows.

[Strid]

I suggest a cheaper AMD build with integrated graphics. I would do the following:

Any µATX 740G/780G motherboard (integrated graphics with more power than you need for any office related work)
Athlon X2 4850e CPU
2x2 GB DDR2-800 RAM (because they're so cheap that there is no reason to go with 2 GB, although Windows XP won't recognize the full 4 GB)
Antec NSK3480 µATX - comes with a decent PSU.
Any hard drive with enough space
Any CD/DVD burner
Optional 3.5" bay flash card reader

There you have it. All you need for office work for very little money. I would say that a discrete graphics adapter is a no-no both in terms of money and unnecessary power consumption. And I can't see why you want a quad core. I doubt that even in eight years that a Word like program or a web-browser woud require more than a single core at a gigahertz or two.

Heck, they even have my old Duron 750 MHz PC in my old dorm kitchen. They use it for playing music, surfing the web (probably for porn, those bastards) and even as a DivX movie box and it works just fine! And that sucker is surely more than 8 years old and still going strong.