Sound cards: when and why you need them.

[LodeHacker]

Hello!

I'm a long time reader of SPCR, been basing most of my orders on what's reviewed here and have gained a lot of knowledge on PCs and cooling, thanks to SPCR. To make my introduction sweet and short, I'm from the orient, live in Finland and I am a 16-year-old musician. Did I mention I'm very into Linux as well? To show my respect to great guys like MikeC here, I decided to write a small mini-howto to make it easier for everyone to find their very personal solution for audio. All written here is based on my memory and experience over three years with PCs and audio production. A little bit on S/PDIF is also here to feed the brains of the very audiophile types. Enjoy and please give me feedback on this!

Section 1: What the beep is a sound card?

A sound card is an optional audio processing device for PCs. All it does is process audio going in to and out of your system. Most if not all motherboards have a sound card solution onboard already and many recent ones have not-so-bad solutions too. The question is, why should one need a sound card? Well, you sure listen to music or play games and you most likely have a pair of stereo speakers with a subwoofer... Thing is, without a sound card you can't hear any of the exciting and uplifting sounds of your games and music with your cool 2.1 speaker system (that is if you don't go totally hardcore and listen to your music with the PC speaker/beeper). Why am I telling this if you already know the basics? Read on...

Section 2: Do I need a sound card? I have HD Audio onboard already!

This is hard to answer and is very subjective, but let me tell you something. That HD Audio you have onboard, also known as Azalia or Realtek HD Audio, is just one of the very basic audio solutions. No no, it sounds great and supports S/PDIF as well. Thing is, you won't be using any of your applications with 24-bit / 96Khz precision, so don't get fooled by the manufacturers. *Very few* people I know listen to their music at 24-bits, most of them having high end professional audio devices anyway. I have made several tests, don't have the right system to give you graphs though, but try this yourself: power on your speakers, make sure there's nothing playing in the background. Set the volume knob of your speakers to the max. Now, do you hear any hissing? Ok, I had at least 5 different motherboards from ASUS, Intel and some OEMs too. The analog audio output has SO MUCH HISS! All boards had the said HD Audio onboard and I thought the hiss in the background was simply unacceptable. Yes, testing was done with studio quality passive speakers. So 7.1 surround doesn't sound as enticing anymore, does it? Don't get me wrong again, the sound output is fine, but it could be better. Also, due to the hiss in the background it adds to the level of your PC's noise. We're here to eliminate noise, right? Read on.

Section 3: You mentioned S/PDIF... what's that?

S/PDIF, Sony/Philips Digital Interconnect Format, is an interface which allows audio to be transmitted between two or more devices digitally. Benefit of digital? In normal and most high end PC systems there's no need for digital audio. Look at it from this side: the professionals who have some expensive DAT (Digital Audio Tape) decks will appreciate the digital interface, why? Ok, remember that a DAC is a component, which converts digital audio into analog audio. Likewise an ADC converts analog audio into digital. So, from the sound card using S/PDIF, recording to the DAT deck and listening the output with headphones the signal is converted only by a single DAC. All is digital till the headphones get into the game. Ok now the same, but using analog audio output: DAC (sound card signal into analog) -> ADC (analog audio into digital for DAT) -> DAC (headphones). See? Yep that's where S/PDIF really benefits. So S/PDIF doesn't make your audio sound better, you just need a high end external DAC to get better analog audio than your sound card's DAC. There's a single good use for home and media PCs with S/PDIF though: you can (in most cases) transmit/passthrough Dolby Digital audio. This means you need a Dolby Digital decoder to get surround audio from your DVDs, so it will be a viable option only for the richer guys.

Section 4: Ok this all is good and so, but do I need a sound card now?

You most likely want one. Why? Having a separate good quality sound card will offload a lot of the stress your CPU would otherwise need to do. Why I'm making that bold is simple. I tried an old Sound Blaster Live! (I have many) on one of my PCs and measured the CPU utilization against my HD Audio integrated controller. Difference? The HD Audio controller used continuously 7~8% CPU (Intel Core 2 Duo E6300) when playing back one of my own songs in MP3 format encoded with CBR 320Kbps and 48Khz sampling rate using Winamp. Sound Blaster Live? Utilization was always under 1%. Difference might seem small, but let me tell you that games certainly don't use a single stereo track for audio. Every effect and action in the game is independent of the main background music and some effects are calculated in realtime (like motor engine sounds in Need For Speed: Most Wanted). It's most likely 4 or more stereo tracks playing back while you're gaming. Ok I made testing by playing Need For Speed: Most Wanted for 30 minutes, looking at the CPU utilization after the game. On my boo boo system with a GeForce 6800 GS, both sessions were very smooth. Ok actual numbers? CPU utilization with HD Audio continuously at 35~45%. Sound Blaster Live? An astonishing 15~30%. That's a peak 20% drop in utilization! Of course the Live! delivered better performance with its built in although very aged EAX support. Any word on heat? Well a slight difference of one or two degrees Celsius isn't much, but I could feel how much there was more headroom for clocking or playing more hungry games on my machine with the Live!.

Section 5: Cool, but it can't be so cool... It's just a few %...

That's what you think. I guess Creative X-Fi cards wouldn't be so popular if people were thinking so narrow minded. Note that my system is compromising of mostly used and second hand PC parts so I'm not pushing any sound cards to the max in the above test. Judge for yourself and tell me that I was wrong when you have bought a decent sound card. It's more than just an optional and unnecessary component in your PC. The next section might be interesting for you, because I'm sure you're asking...

Section 6: ... hey, you're right my friend has an X-Fi and he says its great... should I buy one too?

Not so fast brother. Don't go X-Fi unless it benefits both your pleasure and games. Make sure your games are compatible with EAX 5 and/or the X-Fi RAM and also make sure you have a set of good surround speakers, otherwise you would be experiencing the same sound you could achieve with less expensive money. Many sound cards have different markets. Some are for musicians, some for games and most recently some for home theatre and music. I have had the Sound Blaster Live! (first sound card), the Audigy 4, numerous cheap C-Media based cards, the M-Audio Audiophile 24/96, the FireWire Behringer FCA-202, the Terratec DMX 6fire and now the Terratec EWX 24/96. Starting with the Live!, don't be afraid. The internal 48Khz resampling won't be bad because you'll hear the real difference with studio quality speakers. Actually, the Live! sounds awesome and it exceeds countless HD Audio controllers with its features. Yes, I've owned a Live! Drive IR. Really nice front panel with a remote, one of the best things to fill up those empty 5.25" bays. The Live! was to my taste a bit too old school with the game port interface so I picked up an Audigy 4 (also used, be sure to check other Audigy's as well on eBay etc they are great!). The Audigy was a great step up from the Live!. Sound was clearer thanks to better components in the sound card itself even if it "suffered" from the same resampling issue like the Live!. My Audigy 4 was really nice, probably the best for music and home theatre. Too bad they're not made anymore, but the Audigy 2 series are great as well! Just make sure you don't buy an Audigy 1st generation, they're essentially "cooler" variations of the Live!. Both Terratecs and the M-Audio used the very great Envy24 chip from VIA (rebranded ICEnsemble 1712). These chips produce true 24-bit without resampling and all cards with this chip are AWESOME. Absolutely zero hiss and the highest quality and loudest sound I've ever heard on crappy PC stereo speakers (Logitech OEM). The FireWire was a very special one, more for the musician but great for laptop users too.

Section 7: Yada yada just tell me which one to get!

As a general rule, pick up any Envy24 based card you can find. No matter if it's an Envy24HT or Envy24HT-S etc... For gaming I highly recommend the Creative X-Fi. Their drivers seem to be better now. For home theatre nothing else than M-Audio Revolution 7.1 or any second hand Audigy 2 or Audigy 4. Ok that's how I feel. Now to the real figures. What do you need in your sound card? If you are a musician, make sure to get a sound card with enough I/Os as you need and make sure it does zero resampling. If you're a music lover or home theatre guy, make sure to have a high quality surround sound card with S/PDIF with passthrough for Dolby Digital (IMPORTANT: Make sure you know whether your setup supports coaxial, optical or both connections). For gaming The X-Fi is truely unique, but if you like to play more with heaphones, make sure you have digital speakers like Logitech Z-5500, the Razer HP-1 surround heaphones and the Razer AC-1 sound card. But hey, you probably don't need X-Fi RAM or or digital speakers to justify your gaming pleasure. Here's my absolute favorite pick for a sound card that will most likely suit 99% of amateur musicians, music lovers and semi-overkill gamers; the M-Audio Revolution 5.1 (yes, it has Envy24, ASIO drivers for audio production applications, separate headphones output for music lovers, surround audio for home theatre with coaxial S/PDIF and it offloads enough of your CPU for more gaming pleasure).

Section 8: Sounds really cool, I'll get one ASAP.

STOP! Make sure to read many reviews on the card you consider before purchase. The hands on experience is of course much more different than words on paper, but it's good to know what others say about it. Also, make sure your motherboard is compatible with the sound card of your choice. With PCI Express being relatively new you'll see only a handful of consumer sound cards with PCI Express interface. So if your motherboard has a free PCI slot, fill it with a sound card today! You might want to try out a USB solution for external connectivity or due to having a small form factor PC? Then make sure you buy a sound card with USB 2.0, because USB 1.1 will stress your CPU more than your integrated HD Audio. If you have a FireWire controller and the money to get a FireWire interface though, be sure to do it. Most FireWire devices are likely to be high quality like the Behringer FCA-202, but might not have enough stuff like surround sound for the average Joe. So be sure to know what you want in that sound card, after all you want something better than HD Audio, don't you? But, IMPORTANT: MAKE SURE FIRST OF ALL THAT YOUR SOUND CARD HAS STABLE DRIVERS FOR YOUR OPERATING SYSTEM!!! No, my Caps Lock is fine, but beta or unavailable drivers for your platform are the least you want to face after the purchase of your perfect personal sound card. Small note for Linux guys and gals: All Envy24 based cards have a really nice and user friendly control utility in ALSA called envy24control... definitely the best control utility ever for a sound card in Linux.

Section 9: Wait, are you just trying to get me lose bucks for stuff I don't need?

Time to answer my topic title. When do you need a separate sound card: a) you are not satisfied with your current solution, b) you need more, like S/PDIF input to process your PlayStation's audio with your PC, c) you need an external interface with inputs and outputs, d) you want to help your CPU, e) you need better quality audio possibly with zero background hiss. Why do you need one? Well if you don't, then make sure to buy a good one for your friend. Nothing is just as much appreciated as to get PC stuff for free. It's Christmas so be sure to get a discounted but good sound card if you see a need for it or want to make your friend's winter slightly warmer (sound cards do produce a tiny bit of heat as well )

Section 10: Hey that part is bulls**t. You're SO wrong on that!

Most likely my fault. I have had so many sound cards I might have mistaken a card or two. Please tell me where I'm wrong so I can fix it. This is all based on my own experience and I hope it is of even little use to someone here. Great community! Thanks in advance, and like I mentioned earlier be sure to give me some feedback!

- LodeHacker.

[tehcrazybob]

I always appreciate seeing someone post a big, comprehensive guide like this, but I'm not sure I agree with some of your conclusions.

Initially, you talk about hiss. This is totally accurate, and many on-board sound systems are extraordinarily noisy. This is because the inside of a computer has a whole mess of electric fields which wreak havoc on any analog signals in the computer. However, when you start talking about S/PDIF you completely overlook this. You point out that S/PDIF is only useful with an external DAC (actually, it requires an external DAC to create any noise at all) but pass this off as something only of interest in audio mastering. In truth, by using a digital output, you are moving the digital to analog conversion outside of the noisy RF environment inside the computer case. The only things remaining inside the computer are digital calculations which are not susceptible to this interference, which removes the source of the hiss.

You also talk about CPU usage, and all I can think is that perhaps you should change to more efficient software. I use on-board sound, so as a test I tried playing back a selection of songs in Foobar. I was unable to find any unusual fluctuations in my CPU usage. The processor (E6550) sat at 0% usage, occasionally jumping up to 1% for a moment while the computer did something in the background; this is the same behavior I see when the computer is totally idle.

Sound cards are far from useless, but you have to be careful about your reasoning. If you want to play games, a proper gaming card is a brilliant purchase; the 3D effects are far beyond the abilities of any on-board system and can really bring a game to life. If you don't have access to an amplifier, stereo receiver, or active speakers with a digital input, an aftermarket sound card could again be an excellent purchase and could dramatically reduce the hissing noise you hear.

However, if you don't need gaming 3D effects and you wish to use digital connections, don't bother buying a separate card. The motherboard will output a perfect digital signal with no unwanted noise, and will be totally indistinguishable from a discrete sound card.

Finally, if you're buying a sound card for sound quality, and wish to do your analog conversion on the card rather than elsewhere, you should seriously consider a USB external card. This, just like using a digital output, removes the RF interference to your analog signal processing, and gives you a much clearer, cleaner sound.

[Monkeh16]

I just have to jump in and recommend against the X-Fi for.. well, anything at all.

I've been using one for months, and quite frankly, it's the biggest waste of money I've ever seen. The drivers are really no better than they were when it came out, it still causes more BSODs than anything else. The cards themselves are poor quality, with cheap components compared to similiarly priced cards from other manufacturors. EAX 5 doesn't even work on some cards (like the 'XtremeGamer', which I have), it'll just screech and eventually you'll be staring at a nice blue screen.

I'm so displeased with mine, that now I've replaced it, I'm likely to use it as target practice, it's not worth much more than a piece of paper..

If you want EAX 5 support (really not worth it anyway..), get an ASUS Xonar D1/DX, or a D2/D2X.

[josephclemente]

I chose an X-Fi XtremeGamer for my HTPC and have been very happy with it.

My HTPC's Gigabyte GA-G33M-DS2R motherboard has especially noisy audio. So I thought I would use the motherboard's digital audio output. The only problem with that was my Sony receiver would play computer sounds but they would be cut-off at the beginning of each audio clip. This was real annoying for computer system sounds. Music and movies seemed to be OK.

A new sound card is a lot cheaper than a new receiver, so I got the X-Fi and all problems were solved. There is no hiss through my large living room speakers and I've had no driver issues at all (and that's with 64-bit Vista).

[bonestonne]

another audio dude.

Well, to really jump into the deep end, I do agree with a lot of what you put in there. Chock full of information, but there are some things I'll put into the pot myself.

The average user right now who has onboard HD audio will not notice the difference between onboard sound and a sound card when they use the same set of speakers. Sure, argue amongst yourselves on that, but your sound card will not give your speakers a better fidelity, it will not make them perform better, and it wont make you hear any sounds differently. When it comes to the true audiophile, I'd say first and foremost, before you even pick your sound card, choose your headphones wisely. Everyone has different tastes. Personally, I go with closed back studio headphones when I'm sitting at my desk, for working out, I try to get high response earbuds that do not cancel out noise.

20Hz-20kHz is the absolute minimum that you should have as frequency response on your speakers or headphones. Don't worry about your sound card, each and every one will be able to drive that as long as those frequencies are used in the music you listen to (and if it's not, I have no idea what kind of music you listen to). If you end up getting headphones or speakers with a higher frequency response that's absolutely fine, it'll be used when it's there.

You move into a separate soundcard when your existing outputs are unable to provide adequate response and power for the setup you're using. If you're using like, AC'97 audio to drive a 610W surround sound system, it's time to think about a new card. Most systems today will actually have a control panel allowing you to specify outputs though, so when you plug something in, a lot of motherboards with HD audio will ask you what you want that to be, whether it's a microphone, sub, main left, etc and so forth.

When it comes to load on the CPU itself during audio playback, I think that by now, with most people running dual and quad core CPU's, the small amount of load is insignificant when it comes to most games, considering the audio processors on the motherboard are more than capable of handling the multiple layers of audio being used.

Moving into the realm of external audio sources, I think that tehcrazybob is right, but when you move into an even deeper form of it, you need to take into consideration external sources of line noise, that can often be just as bad as the line noise inside a computer. Case and point: I had a mixer setup on my desk, at first next to the wall that's next to my desk. little did i realize, the wall has so many AC power lines running through it, there was nearly 24dB of line noise alone being generated just by routing the audio cables down next to the wall. Moving my mixer 4 feet to the left onto the other side of my desk reduced the line noise going into my computer from -68dB to -84dB. For even a professional recording studio, -84dB is an incredible noise floor to work with, it gives you an insanely clean signal to work on.

but as for RF interference for general, I don't know how much I can believe that the interference is gone from a USB connection, only because I don't have cable or satellite TV, so we still have the interference from using the TV when I'm doing any recording.

I use M-Audio, and in fact, I'm even looking into a second M-Audio to sync for addition inputs and outputs to use for recording events at my school using a massive rack mount case which I'm hoping to finish soon. Line noise is just a killer though.

But when you move onto the topic of drivers, you couldn't be more dead on. M-Audio is not so hot when it comes to drivers. Not at all. I'm using jipped Vista x64 drivers on my XP x64 system to get outputs working and to have my card to use with any audio application. Since then, drivers have been released, but forget them, I have my system working now, no reason to change anything. The Envy24 drivers are more dependent on the manufacturer, M-Audio has no Intel Mac drivers, and no intention of making any. Luckily you'll be able to find them through googling because gracious people have coded some that work very well.

I haven't worked with as many cards as you (onboard, various Sound Blasters, and my 24/96), but having worked lots with audio in general, I just kind of get anal about everything. Doing it well the first time is much easier than multiple cheap and dirty jobs to get a decent sound.

[Wibla]

If you have an old surround amplifier with sp/dif input you dont really need to worry about noise from the analog outputs, just run digital. I use onboard only for both my HTPC setup and WS setup, with the home cinema rig around the $5k mark total, and the pc rig around the $3k mark.. absolutely no problems with audio quality on neither.

Mind you, not all onboard cards can output bitperfect 44.1khz/16bit audio from FLAC or CD, that might be a problem. I guess I got lucky...

[jessekopelman]

I think this whole thing can be simplified greatly. AFAIK there only 3 utility-based reasons for using a sound card:

1) You play a game can make good use of EAX

2) You need high quality analog inputs or outputs

3) You need S/PDIF in or out and your motherboard doesn't have it

Figuring out which, if any, of these 3 reasons apply to the perspective sound card purchaser goes a long way down the path hardware recommendation and should be tackled before getting into any in depth explanations/comparisons of various technologies.

[tehcrazybob]

1) You play a game can make good use of EAX
2) You need high quality analog inputs or outputs
3) You need S/PDIF in or out and your motherboard doesn't have it

This is exactly what I was trying to say, but I didn't manage it nearly so succinctly. There's really nothing else to it.

[LodeHacker]

Hi!

Yet another audio dude? A special way to start a feedback, but is appreciated as well. You all have some good points too, but I thought that talking about interference would be a bit off the main point of my mini-howto, that's why I didn't mention why there could be hiss. However let me tell you that I have had the ASUS P5LD2/C board, and it had HD Audio. Guess what? Zero hiss. Yes, there can be high quality onboard audio, it is just common it's hissy because of interference with other components.

To my defense though I think it is self-explanatory everyone has their own tastes and everyone will find their very own headphones from the crowd. Headphones is a totally different subject. Go pick one, but are you looking for closed, semi-open or open headphones? That question alone is hard to answer, unless you know your audio job very well... but then you wouldn't be asking the question and so you're out of the group I am targeting with my mini-howto (amateur musicians, music lovers, home theatre type and gamers).

To my defense with the S/PDIF thing. Again interference is not part of the subject, but if you know something about it then use your knowledge and buy something better maybe even I don't know of. Anyway, I meant there's a single good use for the home/media type aka HTPC. For a HTPC it's virtually a must to have Dolby Digital. Why I mentioned the Razer HP-1 and AC-1 combination with the Logitech speakers? Well, the Z-5500 are surround digital speakers with optical input, the Razer AC-1 has only optical in/out with HD-DAI (the DVI looking one). Razer HP-1 headphones are awesome for gaming and they are specifically designed for the AC-1 using HD-DAI, but what if you want to use headphones and speakers without switching cables? Digital speakers are the way to go, they make the digital/analog conversion and amplify the signal. Digital speakers are just way too expensive compared to a high quality sound card with regular PC speakers.

Also, using S/PDIF with a DAC or receiver like josephclemente might result into annoying problems, because with S/PDIF all signals MUST follow the same sampling rate. So if you play a movie with 48Khz soundtrack and system sounds start to play at 44.1Khz, be sure that there will be problems with the audio; in the worst state it could lead to distortion, but most of the time to annoying clipping. So again digital should be used carefully and it really depends on who is using the audio whether digital will be of benefit. And truly, the best benefit for S/PDIF or any other digital interface for the matter, is in pro audio applications with digital recording capabilities like DAT or MiniDisc.

So yeah I mentioned MiniDisc and a cheap MiniDisc deck can be used as a DAC as well. I have the Sony MZ-RH1 portable MiniDisc player/recorder and sometimes just for fun I try it out as a DAC. But there's one thing you are mistaken with. S/PDIF does and will have hiss as well, unless you use optical cables. Many HD Audio equipped motherboards have hissy coaxial S/PDIF, because it is prone to interference inside the PC case. What I am trying to say is, to really benefit of S/PDIF you will always need to buy extremely expensive hardware, so why not just go with a much cheaper high quality sound card option?

Also those who say a sound card is useless maybe have not tried a good sound card. I really must say it again, the M-Audio Revolution 5.1 is truly a revolution in PC audio. Once you try it you'll be like "why didn't I buy this sooner?".

In this contrast I wasn't wrong with my S/PDIF part of the mini-howto. And again the purpose for it was to introduce people new in the audio scene to better audio solutions. You don't need to be a musician or studio freak to understand the concept, it's just that by investing those 100€ into a sound card can and will have a great impact on your PC pleasure.

Also, I didn't have any hands on experience with the X-Fi so I am glad Monkeh is warning people from the experience he had with the X-Fi cards. I haven't tried to play any EAX 4 compatible games with my Audigy 4, but might do it sometime to understand the difference. One thing is for sure though, if you think there's a need for a sound card then think about which one thoroughly. This was the main point of the mini-howto with small jokes here and there.

Anything else I need to keep an eye on?
- LodeHacker

[that Linux guy]

Lode, I noticed you mentioned some nice cards. I have my Audigy SE and it's not as terrible as many might say. It drives my Sennheiser HD 280s and my Grado SR80s just fine, and I'm only running VBR MP3, or FLAC here. I've had an Audigy 4 at one time too and it sounds noticeably better on my cans here.

I had an X-Fi Xtreme Music a couple years ago before I got into better audio equipment. It sounded awesome to my virgin ears, even over cheapo PC speakers. I usually tell others to get the X-Fi if they're a hardcore gamer, but I can't recommend it for audio editing or the music lover. I've re-listened my music with it a couple months ago and it's just a bunch of bogus audio filters. It might sound great on some games, and it might sound amazing to someone who doesn't know what they're missing, but to a budding audiophile, it's completely not worth the money.

Back to my point, you mentioned some nice cards you tested. What's your take on a lot of the C Media 8770 and 8788 based cards out on the market? Particularly those from ASUS, HT Omega, and Auzentech. I've heard these are amazing cards. Did you not mention them because you've heard bad things about them, or because you've no hands on experience with them?

[LodeHacker]

Hi Linux guy (btw, it's refreshing to see some Linux folk on non-Linux forums too!)

Thanks for the kind comments, but there's a single thing I need to tell you. Your Audigy, the Audigy SE is much better than the "real" Audigy cards quality wise, because it does not have the EMU10K2 processor and is incompatible with the emu10k1 drivers in ALSA. It uses different components, but the good thing is it doesn't suffer from resampling problems. Quote from Wikipedia (on Audigy 2 SE): "This card is similar to the Audigy SE and Live! 24-bit edition in that it does not have a hardware DSP as part of the audio chip. As such, it puts far more load on the host system's CPU. The card is physically smaller than other Audigy 2 cards. It is designed as an entry-level budget sound card.". It should be a great upgrade anyway, don't worry about the "missing" DSP.

About the C-Media cards. I've had those very cheap CMI8738 ones and also the Auzentech X-Meridian. I like the CMI8788 Oxygen HD chip a LOT! It's like a direct competitor to the Envy24, so any card with that chip is a sure and great buy! Quality wise it performs as good as the Envy24 I own and I think it could even exceed that (the card had swappable op-amps). I don't recall the name but yes I had a CMI8770 one as well. It's like Envy24HT versus Envy24: a bit limited here and there but quality is the same. I found driver support in Linux with the CMI8770 to be very bad though, so continued to use Envy24 based solutions.

I also had the opportunity to test the ASUS Xonar D2. Simply unbelievable flexibility and quality. Actually, if I had the money now for a HTPC from scratch, be sure that I would include a Xonar in that one. What I extremely liked about the Xonar (and the X-Meridian) was that the coaxial S/PDIF in/ou could be transformed into optical with an adapter. This way I can ensure compatibility with digital devices like my PS2's optical output. I am a total MiniDisc freak and it is really awful to have no good Linux solution for Hi-MD / NetMD, but I find MiniDisc to be awesome. Well, problem is that most MiniDisc portables use optical S/PDIF I/O. At the time I bought my Sony MZ-RH1 I had the M-Audio Audiophile 24/96 which has only coaxial I/O. I didn't feel like buying a converter so I went to pick up a used Terratec EWX 24/96. They're essentially the same, but the Terratec has optical I/O. Too bad that most good cards aren't made anymore, like the Terratec EWX 24/96. I consider myself extremely lucky in having had the opportunity to test so many different sound cards dating back to the first years of Windows XP.

One thing I want to stress though: don't let the companies fool you. Yeah sure X-Fi Crystalizer makes your MP3s sound better... Wait a second, it doesn't mean the hardware does anything... In fact it's a software EQ with bass and treble boost. Boo on Creative for that. So instead of looking for gimmicks look for what you need in your future sound card. I lived happily with the M-Audio till I got my MiniDisc player and faced the incompatibility with S/PDIF I/O.

Auzentech especially does an amazing job with their sound cards. I highly recommend any CMI8788 or Envy24 solution, you'll never look back! Btw, have you had the opportunity to ever test a Envy24 card in Linux?

[Monkeh16]

Btw, have you had the opportunity to ever test a Envy24 card in Linux?

I use one in Linux myself, with OSS instead of ALSA, it works very nicely. Excellent cards, although mine (M-Audio 2496) is relatively low end (96dB SNR, but it still sounds better than similiarly specced onboard devices, and there's precisely no hiss I can hear, which is quite impressive).

[LodeHacker]

Btw, have you had the opportunity to ever test a Envy24 card in Linux?

I use one in Linux myself, with OSS instead of ALSA, it works very nicely. Excellent cards, although mine (M-Audio 2496) is relatively low end (96dB SNR, but it still sounds better than similiarly specced onboard devices, and there's precisely no hiss I can hear, which is quite impressive).

That's great! OSSv4 is great and actually I was a moderator at 4Front forums (well still am, they didn't remove my status). Problems with OSS I faced were very big: OSS supports much fewer cards than ALSA, there's still no real MIDI support, there's no ALSA compatibility layer and the developers (Hannu + Dev) refuse to acknowledge this, because 99% of software already supports OSS. Also, the latest version had had no update for a long time and the developers are starting to rely on the community to improve OSS. OSS was good, but they came too late with the open-sourcing (actually I was considering to buy OSS before it went open-source because ALSA had a too hard routine for software mixing, I'm glad I didn't buy OSS).

Minus points on ALSA is that the GUI mixers for it simply suck. That's why I prefer OSS on lower end PCs. OSS also has great transparent virtual mixing, VMix. However if you have an Envy24 based sound card then stick with ALSA and use the awesome envy24control. I've never looked back. Actually I think it's the best that's available for Linux. If you prefer OSS though it's fully understandable.

Anyone interested in Envy24 make sure the sound card has the ICE1712 or ENVY24 chipset, not ENVY24HT or ENVY24PT or ENVY24HT-S etc... The original Envy24 has a 36-bit hardware mixer and DirectSound acceleration. All other cards output at great quality, but the absence of the hardware mixer will come at a cost: more load on CPU due to software mixing. Anyway we're in 2008 not 1999 so the load won't kill your CPU and might shorten its life only by a single minute or so (probably not technically, but even continuous 8% load won't do any bad).

[bonestonne]

i didn't mean another audio dude in a bad way, just that there seem to be a lot here, even though we don't really converge on each other nearly that much.

When you break it down onto Creative, I can't say I'm terribly impressed. It's hard to really get into it too far, but I can't say I would prefer to use my Soundblaster Live's over onboard audio in most cases (however, I have 2 server motherboards and one old HP board that don't have onboard audio, so I'm stuck with it.

In school I have the glorious opportunity to work with a Dell XPS 710. While it's not the latest and greatest, it's on par with what I've got here, I have more RAM, it has a much better CPU, but I have an M-Audio, it uses a Creative X-Fi. I would rather use this computer than that one absolutely any day of the week, even though I don't have a quad core CPU. Software EQ's that alter your entire output bother me. If I tweak the EQ in Winamp or iTunes, that's one thing, it's for my music, but I don't want to hear that same EQ when I'm watching a movie or if I'm watching a tutorial. I don't want that booming bass unless I can rock out to it.

I've never really had the option of working with S/PDIF or any form of optical or digital audio, I run analog because I'm old school. I use a Behringer Xenyx mixer and I run the main outs into my analog inputs of my 24/96. My 610W Sony receiver in my room (my workstation is not in my room, it's in the family room) uses analog inputs, and i generally just work with a CD or DVD player for listening to music (like my JVC HD-DVD player). I don't work in necessarily cheap environments, at my school where I'm currently in charge of rebuilding a radio studio from beginning to end, the biggest challenge is running the AC power cables. In any situation, I think that that's the pivotal fact for every sound system on any scale. If you can turn on your receiver with no inputs active and turn it up to it's max volume without hearing hiss, or with only a minimal amount, you've got yourself an amazing system. I can't say I've done that well with my system, but if you saw how big my room is, and how much is in there, well, there's too much to get it right.

But kind of hitting back on the interference problems, for most people, and I doubt any would be on this forum, it's cable management. Say you had bundled all your cables from your computer together...well, there you go, source and cause of problem case and point.

I actually have only used a handful of computers with onboard sound...luck of the draw? Most of them are Macs as well, but I wont get into that.

[LodeHacker]

Interesting facts there and no offense taken

We have Fujitsu Siemens CELSIUS machines at school, they also have Creative X-Fi cards with that front panel on one of the DVD bays installed. I am not so impressed of Creative either, but you can't go wrong with an Audigy. Sure it has its problems as well, but in the end it's a great card for just about anything.

Anyway now that modular PSUs are so popular I see no reason not to upgrade. I have a Nexus NX-8040 (400W). Damn the ADDA fan inside is SO SILENT. I can't hear the fan at all. It's a great PSU that's also SLI ready (sports 2 PCI-Express power connectors, but at 400W it will be of little use...). Nowadays I've been such a big fan of Nexus.

In fact, one of my new builds will have this Super Flower Melody case (link is to a Finnish review on the case, just look at the pictures and click "Seuraava" for next page): http://www.skenegroup.net/fi/artikkelit ... f_201t3_bk

For that I will get four 80mm Nexus Basic series fans (2 front, 2 back) and a single 80mm Nexus PWM for the top (to match with the window panel). So case fans always Nexus, but I have always trusted ZALMAN for CPU/VGA coolers. So inside will be a GeForce 6800GS equipped with a ZALMAN VF900-Cu and the Core 2 Duo CPU equipped with the old and trusty ZALMAN CNPS-7000 (C-version with Socket 775 support and it's the blue LED version!).

EDIT: I thought you might want to know the listed Pros and Cons for the Super Flower case in the review. Here's my translation:

Pros
+ Lots of room inside
+ Relatively compact
+ Great looks
+ The implementation of several small details
+ HDD cage (HDDs are mounted vertically)
+ Comes with fans
+ Removable motherboard tray
+ Great front panel connectivity
+ Cable management features
+ Price (was available at a retail price of ~150€)*

Cons
- Slightly tight fan grills
- Removing the front filter is tricky

* I am buying this case second hand (mint condition) for half the price, only 70€! I'm SO lucky! If I hadn't found this case on an auction I would probably have went with a cheap Cooler Master 690!

[Monkeh16]

Problems with OSS I faced were very big: OSS supports much fewer cards than ALSA, there's still no real MIDI support, there's no ALSA compatibility layer and the developers (Hannu + Dev) refuse to acknowledge this, because 99% of software already supports OSS. Also, the latest version had had no update for a long time and the developers are starting to rely on the community to improve OSS. OSS was good, but they came too late with the open-sourcing (actually I was considering to buy OSS before it went open-source because ALSA had a too hard routine for software mixing, I'm glad I didn't buy OSS).

There is an ALSA emu thing, but it's.. imperfect. ALSA is a painful mess anyway. As for updates, 4.1 is coming out very soon. Personally I use the latest mercurial source on my machines.

Minus points on ALSA is that the GUI mixers for it simply suck.

They really do. ossxmix however is a very nice little program, just needs some layout tweaks on some devices (hdaudio comes to mind.. on one of my laptops, you end up with a window around 4000 pixels wide because of the number of controls and their 'layout').

However if you have an Envy24 based sound card then stick with ALSA and use the awesome envy24control.

What does it do? I just need audio output (and input routed to the outputs, which is cake with OSS).

If you prefer OSS though it's fully understandable.

I do. I dropped ALSA long before getting my 2496 because I just couldn't stand it.

[bonestonne]

funny that you mention that Super Flower case. I remember talking to someone about it a long time ago. they had some interesting problems with it, ranging from the fact that it only uses 80mm fans, to the top vent, and the lack of effective dust filters (but they had two large dogs).

I hate spending lots of money on cases, so that's why i went with a cooler master elite 330. i also have room for multiple 120mm fans, whether the mounting is improvised or not (think of a Scythe Kama Bay type fan mounting). the elite 330 is also a lot smaller than most ATX cases, so i can fit it in some tight places (but not many).

[LodeHacker]

funny that you mention that Super Flower case. I remember talking to someone about it a long time ago. they had some interesting problems with it, ranging from the fact that it only uses 80mm fans, to the top vent, and the lack of effective dust filters (but they had two large dogs).

I hate spending lots of money on cases, so that's why i went with a cooler master elite 330. i also have room for multiple 120mm fans, whether the mounting is improvised or not (think of a Scythe Kama Bay type fan mounting). the elite 330 is also a lot smaller than most ATX cases, so i can fit it in some tight places (but not many).

The Super Flower seems to be the best for my setup... I've been through countless reviews and websites to find the perfect case and the fan sizes don't bother me that much. Actually two 80mm fans at 5V can have air flowing as much as a single 120mm at 12V (be it the same type of fan just different size). Also with my experience of the Antec Three Hundred I came to the conclusion that big top fans are plain ugly.

I've seen the Elite 330 and actually like it, just like many other cases, but all have the same problem: the (sorry) f**king front of the cases are made of MESH?!?! I had the Antec Three Hundred.. well after putting my DVD drive and fan controller on the DVD bays... I had a really hard time getting over the fact that my devices just don't line up with each other because the last DVD bay was also of this mesh type. It might help air to get in but it is PLAIN UGLY. It looks really gross. I prefer the front of a case to be smooth and polished, like the Super Flower Melody. Also, I hate cases with a curved front like the Nexus Breeze, because then my devices don't line up either.

@Monkeh16: I'll put up some pictures soon, you'll realize how much easier envy24control is than ossxmix!

[Monkeh16]

@Monkeh16: I'll put up some pictures soon, you'll realize how much easier envy24control is than ossxmix!

I only use ossxmix to adjust vmix volumes, so I don't really need anything easier

[LodeHacker]

Why VMix if your card supports hardware mixing? Anyway, here's a BIG download (265KB). It's basically everything about envy24control with my own help texts. Behold the power of envy24control: http://willhostforfood.com/files3/4014534/envy.png

Cheers, LodeHacker.

[Monkeh16]

Why VMix if your card supports hardware mixing? Anyway, here's a BIG download (265KB). It's basically everything about envy24control with my own help texts. Behold the power of envy24control: http://willhostforfood.com/files3/4014534/envy.png

Cheers, LodeHacker.

Because OSS doesn't do hardware mixing on the output devices, as far as I can tell. And if it did.. Well, how would I control the volume of each program?

That is quite nice, but I can still control pretty much all of that with OSS (although the module requires reloading for some options), and I don't need to change much on the fly anyway.

[LodeHacker]

Heh the benefit of VMix is that you can change individual stream levels. True. Almost forgot due to the problems with OSS

envy24control is awesome in that monitoring any signal coming in and out is very easy. Also, routing the hardware I/Os to do something else (like output analog input to S/PDIF output) is ultra easy thanks to the router. Best thing though is the ability to set S/PDIF output so precisely. Very few cards allow you to change something else than the sampling rate and professional/consumer bits. It's easy to make the S/PDIF output stream Non Audio data. It's useful if I want to output Dolby Digital audio and it's very easy to make the changes without much switching, because envy24control also allows you to make different presets (also allows to control multiple Envy24 cards, but I have a single card solution now so didn't take a picture of that portion in envy24control)

[Monkeh16]

Heh the benefit of VMix is that you can change individual stream levels. True. Almost forgot due to the problems with OSS

That and you don't need to use ALSA.

[LodeHacker]

That and you don't need to use ALSA.

You have a very solid trust to your path. Respect.

[Ch0z3n]

So, I've read through a good chunk of this and know that most of this is way outside of what I need. I think I have some decent speakers, 200W 2.1 (120w Subwoofer and 2x 40w Satellites). But the thing mentioned that caught my eye was the need for a S/PDIF In/Out. My motherboard unfortunately doesn't have a S/PDIF Out to connect to my video card and then go DVI->HDMI and use my TV speakers and maybe get a 5.1 system for the TV. So I guess my question is, what is a fairly budget sound card that has S/PDIF Out and the reduction in CPU load would be useful too?

[hybrid2d4x4]

Just wanted to chime with my opinion:

Creative's X-Fi is a complete POS. I have the Platinum version with the front bay, so it's not the budget or pseudo X-Fi cards (some of the cheap ones don't actually have an x-fi chip). As previously mentioned, their drivers suck. The speaker size settings and resulting crossover settings (I have my fronts and center channels set to large) only take effect if you manually toggle them back and forth and only last until you turn off your computer. The settings in the control panel are consistently showing what I set it to, but they revert their audible effect back to all "small speakers" whenever you restart.
Next, they use landfill-quality capacitors (in a card they sold for $220!!!) that cause intermittent and occasional popping/cracking noises. Worse yet, the company tries to blame it on 3rd parties such as nVidia's chipsets. I've tried my card in 3 completely different motherboards, not a single one of them using nV chipsets, and they all had the issue. I've tried every PCI slot, and driver, and it never went away. It's a good thing it doesn't make those noises that often otherwise I'd probably take a sledge hammer to the card (I now get episodes of it at a rate of a few dozen pops a week, and that's only what i notice in between tracks and during quiet parts of songs- i have music playing 95% of the time i'm at my computer x at least 10hrs a week).
Finally, for the games justification, I'm not sure it even applies anymore if you moved to vista (and they won't be backtracking to XP's sound engine for the next release), and if anything, you have to take extra steps to get sound in games to work properly with more Creative ALchemy bloatware (forgot to mention this, but when you install the driver, it gives you a few hundred megs of extra crap like a HD vid clip that shows the X-Fi logo animation next time you start, even if you check "Driver only" in the install).


Phew! Moving on, I also did try the DTS Interactive feature on the 780G Gigabyte GA-MA78GM-S2H board and, subjectively, it sounded just as good as the analog out on the X-Fi, if not better. For context, I have the X-Fi outputting 5.1 via analog to a Onkyo TX-SR702 7.1 THX receiver, which powers full-range Klipsch Reference Series speakers (RF3-II, RC3, RS35) with 12gauge wire to the towers and 16 to the rest. I used the optical out on a Gigabyte to connect to the same audio system.

On a more typical audio setup (my younger brother's, for whom the 780G system was built for) which includes a common Logitech 5.1 X-530 speaker set, the Gigabyte on-board analog-out sounded no worse than the spare SB Live! that we tried it with just to see if it was worth putting in. Our consensus was "no" and the said SB Live is currently collecting dust in a spare parts bin. If I tried the Gigabyte's analog out on my setup versus the X-Fi, the answer may have been different, but a "Live! 5.1 Mp3+" vs a modern on-board solution comparo favors the latter.

Having said all that, here's what I concluded (a lot of it will resonate what jessekopelman and the OP stated). Reasons to get a dedicated sound card:
1) You are one of those FPS obsessive-compulsive types that tries to sqeeze every last fraction of a frame on some in-game benchmark and want to take a little load off the cpu.
2) You still use and forever plan on sticking with XP (I don't really blame you, even though I think Vista isn't anywhere near as bad as some people make it out to be) and play games that make good use of the hardware-acceleration.
3) You run a mid- or high-end audio setup (AVR, or amp/preamp, with good speakers) and need better analog I/O than what your mobo offers.
4) Need digital output and your mobo doesn't have it. On an aside, a Creative card won't help you in this department. This only applies to the better Auzentech et Al. cards.
5) Want better sound effects in some games in Vista that support it.

I don't know if most on-board solutions are as good sounding and feature-rich as the one I tried, but it sure makes a dedicated sound card look like an unjustified expense in most situations. And I used to be a very strong proponent of dedicated sound cards all the way until the beginning of the year when I put that system together for my bro.

[QuietOC]

But the thing mentioned that caught my eye was the need for a S/PDIF In/Out. My motherboard unfortunately doesn't have a S/PDIF Out to connect to my video card and then go DVI->HDMI and use my TV speakers and maybe get a 5.1 system for the TV.

I haven't seen any motherboards without S/PDIF, you probably just need the bracket.

[Ch0z3n]

it has an optical and coax out on the back plate, but as per motherboard headers, it is only labeled as S/PDIF In and I asked Gigabyte customer support and the response was "unfortunately this model doesn't have a S/PDIF out header."

[LodeHacker]

it has an optical and coax out on the back plate, but as per motherboard headers, it is only labeled as S/PDIF In and I asked Gigabyte customer support and the response was "unfortunately this model doesn't have a S/PDIF out header."

Way not cool; S/PDIF In but no Out? If you want something that works with Vista as well and provides bit-perfect S/PDIF and is not expensive, look no further than for a CMI8738 based sound card. I know the cards suck, but only their analog part does. Using this 3rd party driver it is possible to drive bit-perfect S/PDIF from those sound cards, which is exactly what you want: http://code.google.com/p/cmediadrivers/

Of course if you want more control with the S/PDIF output or want to have more than just S/PDIF (it's gonna cost you a single PCI slot anyway) then I highly recommend the ICE1712 / Envy24 or CMI8788 "Oxygen HD" chipsets. Both can ofcourse output bit-perfect S/PDIF, but their analog parts are awesome too.

One thing you might find interesting is this ASUS sound card: http://www.asus.com/news_show.aspx?id=11638

In short that ASUS Xonar has an HDMI In and Out + S/PDIF coaxial out + Analog stereo audio out. It works by routing the HDMI output of the graphics card to the Xonar and then taking the HDMI Out from the Xonar to your TV / HiFi equipment. What it does is combine audio output with the video-only HDMI output of the graphics card (e.g. with DVI -> HDMI adapter there's no audio transmitted). It also seems to enhance the video, but I don't know much about that. Also in case you simply need to drive normal stereo speakers or want to have coaxial S/PDIF you have it too. The card is PCI Express x1 though and not PCI, so make sure your PC is compatible with it if you want to consider buying it. However this card is quite expensive so you should know exactly what you are after. If you want only S/PDIF output, then my previous advice fits in very well.

[jessekopelman]

it has an optical and coax out on the back plate, but as per motherboard headers, it is only labeled as S/PDIF In and I asked Gigabyte customer support and the response was "unfortunately this model doesn't have a S/PDIF out header."

What video card is it? All the HD4XXX cards have an integrated sound chip capable of 7.1 LPCM output. I think sound cards with an internal S/PDIF are pretty rare (at least at the sub < $50 price point). Unless you're willing to spend more than $50, I think you'd be better off just using the external S/PDIF outs on your MB and just running a separate cable for audio. If you are willing to spend the money, you'd probably be better off just upgrading your video card to an HD4XXX model or even replacing your MB to get what you need.