Seeking comments on planned new build

djohn3853 · Post by **djohn3853** » Tue Mar 03, 2009 4:59 pm

I'm planning a new build sometime in the next couple months. No big rush. Trying to space out the purchases to lessen the impact on my wallet.
What am i looking to spend? Hopefully no more than $800 to $900.

I do some gaming. I picked up FarCry 2, but my current rig cant play it. I've always like the fps like Doom, Half Life.
I also like to download and watch tv shows and just general web surfing.

I plan to oc, but nothing crazy. Air cooling only.

I recently got the 23" Acer monitor. Model H233H w/native res 1920 x 1080

I've ordered a Corsair 650w psu. Arriving this week from the egg.

I'm thinking of this:

GIGABYTE GA-EP45-UD3P LGA 775 Intel P45 ATX Intel Motherboard - Retail

SAPPHIRE 100259-1GL Radeon HD 4870 1GB 256-bit GDDR5 PCI Express 2.0 x16 HDCP Ready CrossFire Supported Video Card - Retail

Intel Core 2 Duo E8400 Wolfdale 3.0GHz 6MB L2 Cache LGA 775 65W Dual-Core Processor - Retail

G.SKILL 4GB (2 x 2GB) 240-Pin DDR2 SDRAM DDR2 1000 (PC2 8000) Dual Channel Kit Desktop Memory - Retail

Western Digital Caviar Black WD6401AALS 640GB 7200 RPM 32MB Cache SATA 3.0Gb/s Hard Drive - OEM

Microsoft Windows Vista Home Premium SP1 64-bit for System Builders - OEM

Tuniq Tower 120 Universal CPU Cooler 120mm Cooling Fan and Fan Controller/Heatsink - Retail

Still up in the air is case & dvd burner.

plan to use on-board sound.

I welcome any and all comments.

Sorry, I wasn't able to post links yet

Mats · Post by **Mats** » Tue Mar 03, 2009 5:38 pm

Welcome to SPCR!

It all looks good to me, the E8400 is a cool running CPU, with actual power draw closer to 35 W maximum, and easy to overclock.

Two things to note:

- ATI 4800 cards will drop in price very soon.

- I'd keep XP until W7 shows up. It's nothing wrong with Vista, but I know I prefer W7 and I'd regret buying Vista only about 6 months before W7 shows up.
Or, at least try out the W7 beta BEFORE you decide on Vista.

djohn3853 · Post by **djohn3853** » Wed Mar 04, 2009 4:49 am

Does the 4870 price drop include the 1 Gig models, which i've selected? Most of what I've read seemed to focus on the 512 version.

Mats · Post by **Mats** » Wed Mar 04, 2009 5:07 am

Yeah I'm pretty sure it would drop below $200, but I just can't find the link right now.

Mats · Post by **Mats** » Wed Mar 04, 2009 5:22 am

http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/sho ... p?t=219667

psiu · Post by **psiu** » Wed Mar 04, 2009 7:39 am

Depending on pricing at the time, could always go with the Caviar Blue--speed increase of the black seems miniscule for sound increase.

And if you can...hold out for W7. I know the upgrade bug can feel though, so you might just go with Vista.

I ended up going dual-boot with XP and Vista. Any older games I default onto XP, any "Games for Windows" that are Vista era go in Vista. Makes things easier.

Mats · Post by **Mats** » Wed Mar 04, 2009 7:58 am

psiu: Do you think the W7 beta is good enough to use until it goes on sale?
I'd definitely go for XP32 and maybe W7-64 beta in dualboot, can't really see how anyone would miss Vista with that combination. Besides, it doesn't cost anything.

psiu · Post by **psiu** » Wed Mar 04, 2009 8:10 am

Mats wrote:psiu: Do you think the W7 beta is good enough to use until it goes on sale?
I'd definitely go for XP32 and maybe W7-64 beta in dualboot, can't really see how anyone would miss Vista with that combination. Besides, it doesn't cost anything.

My only concern with that, and really the main reason I didn't do it myself, is that what if they force a clean install on final release. The last thing I wanted to do was spend 9 months making an install *mine* -- and then having to reinstall anyway.

Sort of thing that makes me want to punch my monitor. Kind of like Antec's web store at the moment.

Edro · Post by **Edro** » Wed Mar 04, 2009 2:21 pm

Nice system component choices.

What am i looking to spend? Hopefully no more than $800 to $900.

I'm guessing that this means no more than $900 not including the PSU, as I quickly added up your list ($780) and that leaves you with $120 for case and DVD burner (not counting rebates either, which you should never count on as it's a gamble if you get one). Burners run about $20. That's $100 for a case. The P180 and P182 are really nice cases and will likely fit your HD 4870, but they are just over $100 ($130 to $150). Since you're spacing out purchases you could wait until the case goes on sale. The Solo is another case that comes to mind but I don't think it'll fit the HD 4870.

For CPU Cooler I'd also look into the Xigmatek HDT S-1283 with the Xigmatek Retention Bracket ACK-I7751. The bracket really should come standard with the S-1283 but at least Xigmatek made one. This allows you more choices in fans, and save maybe $10. But the Tuniq would work just as well.

The WD 640GB Blue would save you another $10 and the money saved could go towards the P182.

And if you do get the rebates then it's just gravy.
Good luck.

djohn3853 · Post by **djohn3853** » Wed Mar 04, 2009 4:55 pm

Just since I posted this morning, the 4870 in my Newegg wish list has dropped. Its $199 after $25 instant rebate and $189 with mir if purchased before 3/9/09. And free shipping to boot.

Hmm, I wonder if it will drop even more? I doubt if there will be another price drop before 3/9. Might just have to pull the trigger.

Plekto · Post by **Plekto** » Wed Mar 04, 2009 11:50 pm

Get the 512MB version of the same video card. Trust me, for FEAR and similar games, you'll never notice the difference.

djohn3853 · Post by **djohn3853** » Thu Mar 05, 2009 4:43 am

What about games a year from now?

I am under the impression that to maximize my monitor (see op) I should get the 1Gig version.

Also, with the price drop, I think its a no-brainer

Mats · Post by **Mats** » Thu Mar 05, 2009 5:35 am

More RAM makes a bigger difference with higher resolutions, look here.
I can't really tell how much it is worth though.

Post by **CA_Steve** » Thu Mar 05, 2009 10:08 am

Most review charts show a 5-10% improvement in the ave fps with the additional Video RAM in the 4850 and 4870. The big benefit of 1GB over 512MB is that it significantly raises the minimum fps in games. FAR CRY 2 @ PC Games Hardware

Another vote for getting the 640GB Blue instead of the Black. Minimal performance difference and big diff in acoustic signature.

e8400 and GA-EP45-UD3P are a well liked combo. When I'm ready to take a hammer to this P5B-E, I'll probably replace it with a EP45-UD3something.

PSU is overkill. Your system won't see more than 250W. The upside is you will never hear your psu fan ramp up

Does Vista still tie OEM licenses to a specific cpu/mobo? In other words, you get one build and only on build? Upgrade the h/w = get another license? If so, you may opt for retail version.

Vista vs XP argument...If I needed a new license for a build, I'd go Vista. XP is long in the tooth with it's own quirks and work arounds...the upcoming OS isn't out until fall/winter 09...and who wants to mess with beta s/w? Heck, I'd probably wait until Fall '10 for the SP1 version.

Plekto · Post by **Plekto** » Thu Mar 05, 2009 2:10 pm

From that review:

1680*1050 4xFSAA 16XAF

That's quite silly, really. If you drop the resolution a notch, or the 16XAF to 4x, you'll not see any meaningful difference.

I run far cry 2 at 1204*768 on my old 17 inch monitor with everything at nearly max settings and it's mirror smooth. On an old X1800XT.

*I did drop the bit depth to 16 bits - makes a huge difference and your eyes won't know the difference since this isn't Photoshop. 32 bits in a game is just wasted, IMO. Anisotropic filtering and HDR are far more important.

Mats · Post by **Mats** » Thu Mar 05, 2009 3:36 pm

Plekto wrote:*I did drop the bit depth to 16 bits

How do you do that? ATITool? ATT?
CCC had no impact on the game, of course, and I couldn't find that option in the game settings.

Post by **CA_Steve** » Thu Mar 05, 2009 3:40 pm

..........
"I recently got the 23" Acer monitor. Model H233H w/native res 1920 x 1080 "
..........

Yes, the review shows the settings with 4x AA and 16:1 AF. Yes, the diff will be less for lower quality settings...especially at 16x10 or less. In this case, the resolution is 1920x 1080. Better to see what happens with settings at a mid-high quality than at just the low.

your mileage may vary.

Plekto · Post by **Plekto** » Fri Mar 06, 2009 2:48 pm

Mats wrote:
Plekto wrote:*I did drop the bit depth to 16 bits
How do you do that? ATITool? ATT?
CCC had no impact on the game, of course, and I couldn't find that option in the game settings.

Well, I have two tools at my disposal:
First is the ATI tool, which I can tweak to 16 bits. This vastly improves HDR and smoke/haze calculation speeds. Some games require a small tweak to the config file. 16 bit textures take half the memory space of 32 bit ones to map out/draw. This translates into 1/4 as much for effects that are calculated in free-floating 3D space(like HDR, fog, and other non-vertex-mapped/attached to splines and hard reference points(like say, a wall or tree). 16 vs 32 bit has almost no impact on AA and Anisotropic filtering and the like, though - since those blend fixed textures and aren't doing real-time 3D modification.

The second is a handy tool:
http://www.pagehosting.co.uk/rl/

Since my eyes can't see more than 60-75fps anyways, but they CAN see a jump from say, 100fps down to 40fps more easily than 60 down to 40, this is a very good trick. It also keeps the GPU cooler since it doesn't waste as many cycles grinding out every last fps.

Mats · Post by **Mats** » Fri Mar 06, 2009 9:09 pm

Thanks for your help, I'll try it later.

Nudz · Post by **Nudz** » Sat Mar 07, 2009 6:11 am

Could you provide some screenshots from using 16bits in games like farcry 2 for instance?
I've got a hard time believing you won't see much of a difference but I'm open to change my mind.

Plekto · Post by **Plekto** » Mon Mar 09, 2009 4:33 pm

I wish I could, but I don't have a good screen capture program. The AA and filtering and HDR add enough slight blur to the overall look that 16 vs 32 bit isn't even noticeable. It all looks gorgeous and mirror smooth either way.

edit: 16 bit color is 65K colors. A 1600*1200 monitor only has 1.92 million locations on the screen, so it's really already overkill, since effects and lighting aren't that noticeable. 32 bit is only good for extreme Photoshop pixel-peeping and the like, or for extremely high contrast images with pixel-wide patterns and so on in them(say a photograph of a screen door)

Since most action games dither and blend and with AA turned on, any tiny movements or differences blur - your eyes see 16 bit AA as hundreds of thousands of colors unless it's a side by side static image.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Color_depth
32 bit color is actually really 24 bit color. 24 bit color is considered better than the human eye can resolve. 16.7 Million colors - about 8x the number possible to display on the largest monitors at once.

Post by **NeilBlanchard** » Mon Mar 09, 2009 6:10 pm

Hi,

You do a screen capture by hitting the Print Screen button (which puts the whole screen into the Clipboard) and then Paste it into a image editor; like IrfanView. If you only want the active window (and not the whole screen) press Alt-Print Screen.

Plekto · Post by **Plekto** » Tue Mar 10, 2009 3:17 pm

I'll see what I can do(don't have a place to host the files easily). the thing is, it looks like a big difference in a screen capture. But in-game, you just don't see it.

Far Cry 2 (for PC) can render 24 bit textures, but a lot(read - most) games use 16 bit textures and dither/blend/bump map them to look pseudo-24 bit.

This is why, for instance, FEAR ran so damn slowly. It wasn't that the game wasn't optimized. It was that everyone's 256MB video cards were suddenly having to render real 24 bit textures and had a stroke. Kicking it back to 16 bit fixed it, of course, for most systems.(or those who realized what was happening and did so). HDR also did its share of GPU killing as well. OTOH, I won't play any game now without it. It's not raytracing, but it's certainly an acceptable solution.

(note - HDR and Bloom together are overkill on ATI cards in Far Cry 2 - it looks very bleached-out and bad. Almost like you're color-blind.). One or the other is fine.

Mats · Post by **Mats** » Fri Mar 13, 2009 4:10 pm

Plekto wrote: The second is a handy tool:
http://www.pagehosting.co.uk/rl/

I can't change to 16 bits with that. How do you do that?

Edit: I guess you meant RefreshLock, I tried RefreshForce first.