Which HW for these games? Please advise

Thomas · Post by **Thomas** » Wed Apr 01, 2009 12:11 am

My nephew is 14 years, and in a month or so, he finally got the money for a stationary PC.

He wants to plays those games:

Counter Strike Source
Grand Theft Auto 4
Need For Speed. Undercover
Call of duty

and since I dont know much abot those, I would like to hear some advises for CPU and GPU.

Also, do they require Vista / DirectX 10?

I think he'll get a 20-22" flatpanel widescreen, since he also wants to watch bluray/HD movies - are there any recommendations for screen sizes for (these) games? Is a widescreen a good idea for those games?

So what would be a good CPU / GPU for reasonably quality graphic and alternatively for graphic settings maxed out? Something like a ATI Radeon HD 4870? Or will less do fine?

Please note, that quietness not is the goal - my nephew cares a lot about blue lights and bling factors... I'll try to guide him towards cases like Coolermaster Centurion - or at least others with 12 cm fans, so he has a option for quieting it later on.

The goal is more to have fun with gaming and movies, without buying a lot more than what's needed.

thejamppa · Post by **thejamppa** » Wed Apr 01, 2009 1:19 am

GTA4 is quite demanding. I would recomend HD 4830 instead 4670 just due the GTA4 graphics demands. Price difference is not that great but there is quite bit difference in horse powers.

And no, they do not require vista Nor DX10, you simply can run them as DX9. Screen size is hardly relevat or can be optimized for the games. They become important for the VGA card. 22" are usually 1680 x 1050 pixels or more expensive models are full HD 1900x1200 pixels. Bigger the resolution you want to game more horse powers you need. HD 4830 is fine for 1680 x 1050 pixels and 1900 x 1200 even latter one you may need to drop some image quality in newest and most demanding games and one... Legendary game that doesn't run well maxed out even future cards: Crysis...

For gaming Intel's E7x00 and 8x00 series are good CPU's. AMD's Phenom II's are not spoiled with price either.

Just: If your nephew is 14, do you really let him play GTA4? Its not R-rated without reason you know...

Post by **CA_Steve** » Wed Apr 01, 2009 6:45 am

22" wide screen is great for games as well as watching movies and prices have really dropped over the last year. The std resolution as pointed out above is 1680x1050..so it's not quite 1080p sized...but pretty close.

Three of the games listed require a bit of gpu and cpu performance to run at the higher quality modes. Getting a fast dual core is better than a slower quad core at this time. Something >2.5GHz like the e7400/e7500. If you want to spend more, get the e8400...if you want to spend less, get the e5400, just note cache size will also impact game speed.

For the GPU, I'd aim for the HD4850 or a GTS 250.

A couple of review sites:
Anandtech on the GTS250
PC Game Hardware on Need for Speed

Thomas · Post by **Thomas** » Thu Apr 02, 2009 1:10 am

Thanks for the suggestions

I've read about GTA4 and it's content, and I'll definately have a serious word with his dad.

Okay, 4850 is on the shopping list now, and I'm diggin CPU's now.

Meanwhile, I'm pretty sure he'll get the cheapest 22" with good response times, he can find. I suspect such a screen wont be very good with colors etc. Wouldnt that be the bottleneck for movies? I mean, is there any point with bluray, if one dont get a better screen?

Post by **CA_Steve** » Thu Apr 02, 2009 6:36 am

Kids play games on their phones, watch movies on their ipods, and have gotten so used to poor mp3 compression that they like it's sound better than lossless music, and you are worried that he's so much of a quality expert that he'll scoff at the 22" LCD? Thanks for the humor w/ my morning coffee.

Sorry - that struck me as funny. I haven't messed with Bluray, so I'm not the expert here. Make sure the monitor and graphics card are HDCP compliant. That's about the sum of my knowledge base.

Chances are, you'll get a TN based LCD, as they are the technology used in ~$200 22" monitors. So, some of the things to look for are viewing angle, color gamut, response time (more for games than movies), and power use. There's quite a bit of difference in power use....some of the lowest priced monitors seem to use the most power. At this point, look for some site reviews or even user reviews on movie performance.

An open question to the crowd: Can you discern the difference between 720p and 1080p on a 22" TN LCD or for an other type of LCD?

padmewan · Post by **padmewan** » Thu Apr 02, 2009 10:20 am

Thomas wrote:Thanks for the suggestions

I've read about GTA4 and it's content, and I'll definately have a serious word with his dad.

I assume you are concerned about the violence in GTA4? This happens to be one of my research areas -- a lot depends on how mature your nephew is and the context in which he plays games. If he has a good relationship with his father, and his father is understanding of games, titles like GTA4 offer a great opportunity to talk about issues like violence, values, respect, etc. The game is "adult" in more ways than just violence; while it lacks the sophistication or subtlety of the Sopranos, it does try to touch on ethical and moral issues, even if from the "bad" angle. I wouldn't, however, write off a game like GTA4 for teens just because of the violence/misogyny, if the game is going to be played in a healthy context.

Sorry to take this off-topic!

thejamppa · Post by **thejamppa** » Thu Apr 02, 2009 12:24 pm

padmewan wrote:
Thomas wrote:Thanks for the suggestions

I've read about GTA4 and it's content, and I'll definately have a serious word with his dad.
I assume you are concerned about the violence in GTA4? This happens to be one of my research areas -- a lot depends on how mature your nephew is and the context in which he plays games. If he has a good relationship with his father, and his father is understanding of games, titles like GTA4 offer a great opportunity to talk about issues like violence, values, respect, etc. The game is "adult" in more ways than just violence; while it lacks the sophistication or subtlety of the Sopranos, it does try to touch on ethical and moral issues, even if from the "bad" angle. I wouldn't, however, write off a game like GTA4 for teens just because of the violence/misogyny, if the game is going to be played in a healthy context.

Sorry to take this off-topic!

Not to take anymore off topic this, we should probably go Offtopic section and see if there is suitable thread if not create one. Subject is very intresting ^^

hybrid2d4x4 · Post by **hybrid2d4x4** » Thu Apr 02, 2009 5:56 pm

CA_Steve wrote: An open question to the crowd: Can you discern the difference between 720p and 1080p on a 22" TN LCD or for an other type of LCD?

I would say it depends on the source- for movies/TV,etc. then probably not unless you're sitting very close and specifically looking for the differences. For games, you probably will see the difference as the 720 vertical pixels will cause "jaggies" to show a lot more than at 1080P, especially in driving games where you see a lot of depth of field at the horizon.

With respect to the original questions, if you scratch the horribly ported GTA4 off the list, then a 4850 will be more than enough to run everything at high settings @ 1680x1050. Supposedly, AMD's got the new 40nm cards coming out soon so if you hold off for a few weeks, you can probably grab one of those and it should be in the league of the 4830 for the price of a 9800GT if the preliminary info from Tom's Hardware is to be believed.

Thomas · Post by **Thomas** » Thu Apr 02, 2009 9:37 pm

padmewan wrote:
Thomas wrote:Thanks for the suggestions

I've read about GTA4 and it's content, and I'll definately have a serious word with his dad.
I assume you are concerned about the violence in GTA4? This happens to be one of my research areas -- a lot depends on how mature your nephew is and the context in which he plays games. If he has a good relationship with his father, and his father is understanding of games, titles like GTA4 offer a great opportunity to talk about issues like violence, values, respect, etc. The game is "adult" in more ways than just violence; while it lacks the sophistication or subtlety of the Sopranos, it does try to touch on ethical and moral issues, even if from the "bad" angle. I wouldn't, however, write off a game like GTA4 for teens just because of the violence/misogyny, if the game is going to be played in a healthy context.

Sorry to take this off-topic!

From my point of view, you're not off-topic, I care a lot about my nephew

and you have some interesting point of view here. Violence etc. dont dissapear, just because we deny it's existance. It's a matter of what we learn our children.

Thomas · Post by **Thomas** » Thu Apr 02, 2009 9:41 pm

hybrid2d4x4 wrote:With respect to the original questions, if you scratch the horribly ported GTA4 off the list, then a 4850 will be more than enough to run everything at high settings @ 1680x1050. Supposedly, AMD's got the new 40nm cards coming out soon so if you hold off for a few weeks, you can probably grab one of those and it should be in the league of the 4830 for the price of a 9800GT if the preliminary info from Tom's Hardware is to be believed.

He wont be buying before early may

so I'll keep an eye on AMD. Thanks for the tip.

Personally, I'm a ATI/AMD guy, however that doesnt matter for my nephew. But then again, I'm likely going to be his 3'rd level supporter

Thomas · Post by **Thomas** » Thu Apr 02, 2009 10:03 pm

CA_Steve wrote:Kids play games on their phones, watch movies on their ipods, and have gotten so used to poor mp3 compression that they like it's sound better than lossless music, and you are worried that he's so much of a quality expert that he'll scoff at the 22" LCD? Thanks for the humor w/ my morning coffee.

Sorry - that struck me as funny. I haven't messed with Bluray, so I'm not the expert here. Make sure the monitor and graphics card are HDCP compliant. That's about the sum of my knowledge base.

Chances are, you'll get a TN based LCD, as they are the technology used in ~$200 22" monitors. So, some of the things to look for are viewing angle, color gamut, response time (more for games than movies), and power use. There's quite a bit of difference in power use....some of the lowest priced monitors seem to use the most power. At this point, look for some site reviews or even user reviews on movie performance.

An open question to the crowd: Can you discern the difference between 720p and 1080p on a 22" TN LCD or for an other type of LCD?

He he, I see why you laugh.

Let me rephrase my question: Is there any point in buying a bluray drive, when watching on a low budget 22" ?

Thomas · Post by **Thomas** » Thu Apr 02, 2009 10:26 pm

CA_Steve wrote:Three of the games listed require a bit of gpu and cpu performance to run at the higher quality modes. Getting a fast dual core is better than a slower quad core at this time. Something >2.5GHz like the e7400/e7500. If you want to spend more, get the e8400...if you want to spend less, get the e5400, just note cache size will also impact game speed.

Core 2 Duo E7400 2,8 GHz showed up at good prize. But then I found this benchmark of Phenom II and GTA4: http://www.pcgameshardware.com/aid,6722 ... ws/?page=4

So now a Phenom II 940 and a ATI 4850 plus 4 x 2 GB OCZ RAM is on the list.

EDIT: Even though AM3 + DDR3 wont gain much performance, if any, I tend to go with these. For the sake of having the option of upgrading RAM and/or CPU later.

However, I've never really understood RAM timings vs. speed etc., and I dont really know what to look for... For a mchine like this, where performance counts, is there any gain by for instance choosing Kingston HyperX over Kingston ValueRAM?

Thanks.

Post by **CA_Steve** » Fri Apr 03, 2009 8:14 am

Memory timing: I'm not up to speed on Phenom II clock ratios, so here's a Core 2 Duo example. The e8400 has a 9x clock multiplier. Memory runs at 2x. So, if you are running at the base 3GHz clock, this means the base rate = 3GHz / 9 = 333MHz. So, the memory runs at 2x 333 = 666MHz for the "1:1" timing ratio.

If you OC the e8400 up to 3.6GHz, then the "1:1" ratio leads to memory speed of 800MHz. So, memory faster than 800MHz really doesn't buy you anything. However, tighter memory timings can provide some speed enhancements (5 to maybe 10%). So, for Core 2 Duos, some DDR2-800 with tight timing is better than DDR2-1066 with slower timing.

Perhaps someone familiar with the Phenom II can speak up on the optimal memory speed for that CPU.

Amount of memory: 4 x 2GB seems a bit overkill. 2x2GB will be better for anything he wants to do...unless he's starting a career in Photoshop.

lm · Post by lm » Fri Apr 03, 2009 1:31 pm

Thomas wrote:Let me rephrase my question: Is there any point in buying a bluray drive, when watching on a low budget 22" ?

Instead of a bluray drive and a low budget monitor, skip the bluray and buy as good monitor as you can. Eyes are a very important asset of any human being, and well being of eyes is pretty important.

Or instead of a bluray drive, spend the extra money on the local movie rental place. Satisfaction guaranteed.

On my 30" 2560x1600 pixels monitor, I do notice the quality difference between HD and DVD quality, but only if I sit near the screen. For movies, I like to take a little distance to the monitor, so I don't notice much. I mostly use just DVDs.

The next paragraph is a description of a mission in GTA SA:

Btw what do you do when the local construction site workers have called your sister a whore? Well, you teach them a lesson by taking a pile driver, crushing all the construction site barracks, killing any construction workers that try to stop you. and finally push a portable toilet to a hole in the ground using the pile driver, then fill that hole with concrete using a concrete truck. The construction site supervisor is doing his business in the said portable toilet, and will cry out loud the whole time while you are doing this. And it does take some time. So you basically bury a man alive, stained in his own shit.

This is a mission from GTA San Andreas, the previous in the GTA series. It has been long since I was a child, and while I otherwise enjoyed the game, especially this scene made me a bit uneasy. I don't think this game is suitable for children, and 14 year old is a child no matter how cool he thinks he is.

Plekto · Post by **Plekto** » Fri Apr 03, 2009 6:04 pm

yeah - it's not PG13.

Mass effect, though, is a good cheap title. Never winter Nights 2 is as well, and Far Cry 2 is about the best dang shooter out there. They would all be somewhat kid safe I think. Shoot, even the original Far Cry rocked - and it's $10 on Steam.

Get a HD4850. Best value for the money. Stick a S1 on it. Oh - and buy a set of low-profile memory heatsinks. The ones included on the S1 kit don''t stick well.

EDIT - yes, most shooters now all show people getting quite realistically shot and killed and have bad language, but it's just that - not sexual predation, evisceration, pulsating walls of carnivorous demon flesh, or anything truly nasty. Just your typical mutants, zombies, guns, blood, and so on. Rockstar has always been outside of the box on this one and their games are more and more adult themed.

Other games to try (I like Steam - easy and simple) - Any of the Tomb Raider games are good, of course. Halo is good. X-Com is a classic and fun. FEAR - I'd say not kid safe as it's more than "ooh - I got shot - lots of blood(enemy falls over). No, it's really quite scary even as an adult. Half Life, of course - just get the entire Valve "pack". Any of the X series are good (outer space sim game). X2 was fine, but X3 is really good.

As for WWII games, IL2 is a good flight sim, even today. Basically look for packs and stuff that's on sale. I bought the last Tomb Raider game for $5 this weekend. Great fun and I spent almost as much time looking at the scenery as playing the game.

Burnout Paradise is also a great racing game.

Oh - and one more to *avoid* - Vampire the Masquerade. Decent game now with the fixes, but it's by far the most explicit and gritty in theme game other than maybe GTA4 that I've run across. It basically rewards you for killing and maiming everything in your path, as well as doing every immoral action that you can get away with. And then there's the insane character type that takes that level of messed up and robs it of its unholy stain by going off the deep end... I played it and I'm in my 30s and I was "wow - they actually got away with that content?". Until GTA4, that was the top spot in my list of "my son's NEVER paying this game".(he's 10, btw - so at that age where he wants shooters and so on, but isn't getting them yet...)

Third in the list to avoid would be the Hitman games, of course - great fun but really not kid-safe. It's pretty obvious from the title, though... heh.

Oh - one last set of games. Get the entire group of Lucas Arts Jedi (foo) titles. All are good and heavily sanitized for PG13 level play. Knights of the Old Republic is superb, but the older titles like Jedi Knight II: Outcast and Jedi Academy are fantastic if you've never played them. My son is all over KOTOR and can't get enough of it.

bongoyvr · Post by **bongoyvr** » Sat Apr 04, 2009 10:47 am

no pg13 fosure

Thomas · Post by **Thomas** » Sun Apr 05, 2009 3:03 am

Thx everyone.

The shopping list so far:

Phenom II X4 810 4 MB (AMD Processor in a Box (PIB))
Gigabyte GA-MA790XT-UD4P
OCZ 2 x 2 GB DDR3 1333 MHz ( PC3-10666 ) CL6 ( 6-6-6-18 )
ASUS EAH4850/HTDI (512 MB)
WD Caviar Blue WD6400AAKS 640 GB
Cooler Master Centurion 590
FSP BLUE STORM II 400

Is there any significant performance differences on 4850 manufacturer? I googled for 4850 roundup, but didnt found much. We dont plan on OC'ing, so a factory OC'ed card would probably be good.

Tephras · Post by **Tephras** » Sun Apr 05, 2009 5:43 pm

No, there are no performance differences between cards from different manufacturers (and if there are they are marginal). Those that are OC'ed in factory can, of course, differ in performance.

Thomas · Post by **Thomas** » Thu Apr 09, 2009 11:16 pm

GTA4 is no longer on the list - so now the list goes like this:

Phenom II X4 810 4 MB (AMD Processor in a Box (PIB))
Gigabyte GA-MA790XT-UD4P
OCZ 2 x 2 GB DDR3 1333 MHz ( PC3-10666 ) CL6 ( 6-6-6-18 )
ASUS EAH4850/HTDI (512 MB)
WD Caviar Blue WD6400AAKS 640 GB
Cooler Master Centurion 590
FSP BLUE STORM II 400

Counter Strike Source
Need For Speed. Undercover
Call of duty

New on the list is that it most likely will be a Samsung T220 (22"/1680x1050).

I've checked som HD4850 benchmarks, gruru3d, for instance, and it seems Call of duty is the only of the 3 above, which are benchmarked.

Is Call of duty the most demanding of the 3?

Plekto · Post by **Plekto** » Fri Apr 10, 2009 4:58 pm

The original cal of duty games ran just fine on my Radeon 800XT with a P4/2.4/533 and 512MB ram. Yes, that was about 5 years ago. Heh. Anything new will crush those old titles, which are still fantastic and cheap. Remember, everything is new to him. He'd probably like playing Quake and Doom, even.

loimlo · Post by **loimlo** » Sat Apr 11, 2009 1:29 am

Need For Speed Undercover is the most demanding title in your list. Btw, I'd get Corsair CX400 or Seasonic S12II-2 380 rather than FSP BLUE STORM II 400 for quieter acoustics.

speedkar9 · Post by **speedkar9** » Sat Apr 11, 2009 10:50 am

Thomas wrote: OCZ 2 x 2 GB DDR3 1333 MHz ( PC3-10666 ) CL6 ( 6-6-6-18 )

You might regret going with "only" 4GB's. I've got 6GB and while playing GTA4 ram usage is around 3.91GB.

Thomas · Post by **Thomas** » Sat Apr 11, 2009 11:46 am

Thanks for your input.

Yeah, it's a challenge when everything is new - I can make plans today, which are outdated tomorrow, because he discover something new.

On the other hand, how much money should one sacrifice on the "just to be sure alter"?

I think it's good to go the AM3 / DDR3 route - not much extra money, yet more more upgrade options later on.

And that's a good point, I was thinking about going with a HD4830, and buy another one later for CrossFireX later, if needed. Performance/money wise it's a good idea - but according to review, there's still driver issues.

GTA4 is out of the game now (had to phrase it like that

), so I think 4 GB RAM is enough. Besides, RAM is not the worst, if he has to upgrade in a year from now.

Buttomline, the graphics card, are my main doubt now...

Thoughts are welcome