Advice Needed for Two New PCs

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Djehuty
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Advice Needed for Two New PCs

Post by Djehuty » Sat May 16, 2009 12:12 pm

Greetings,

A few years ago, I put together a computer based in part on information gleaned from this website. I did a reasonably good job, I think, but I flubbed a few things. Now I'm putting together its replacement, as well as one for a parent who is very greatly bothered by excess noise. I'd be most grateful for some assistance in doing things properly this time around. :)

PC #1 - How Far Wrong Am I?

For my computer, I have the following:

- Antec P183 case
- Asus P5Q-E motherboard
- Intel Core2Duo E8400
- Zalman CNPS 9700 NT cooler
- EVGA GeForce GTX 260 video card
- Antec CP-850 power supply
- 2x Western Digital Caviar Black 1 TB hard drives
- 4x Scythe Gentle Typhoon 1450 RPM fans

Now, I've made one mistake already of which I'm aware: I've come here for help after placing the order for the parts. But if I've made any catastrophic errors, I'd rather send something back than deal with a hideously loud computer. Any thoughts would be appreciated.

PC #2 - The Mum Hates the Noise

I'm a bit lost on this one. I'm used to thinking in terms of big clunky boxes with lots of fans and so forth. But Mum has professed a preference for something smallish and sleek. And since she has never played a computer game other than Solitaire and Mah Jongg, I know she doesn't need much in the way of graphics power. I've seen some neat little cube-ish cases, like the Antec NSK-1380 and some bare-bones systems, but I don't know whether these would be quiet enough.

I want this to be a computer that will last for years to come, so I was thinking of building it around a Core2Duo E7400, one of the same type of hard drive I'm putting in mine, and just use the onboard video from whatever motherboard I choose.

Might anyone have any suggestions for the case type, and what sort of quiet CPU fan would work well in such a case?

Also, in general, are the Gentle Typhoon fans good? Or should I find something else?

Many thanks! :)

cb95014
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Re: Advice Needed for Two New PCs

Post by cb95014 » Sat May 16, 2009 1:57 pm

Hopefully you have perused the recommended lists. If you stick with those you won't go far wrong.
Djehuty wrote:- Antec P183 case
IMO it looks terrible, but functionally is a great case
- Asus P5Q-E motherboard
Nice M/B. I prefer the new Gigabyte boards, as I have had better luck with stability. The only flops that I have built in the last few years had ASUS boards with flaky BIOS.
- Intel Core2Duo E8400
Great CPU, although you could start with an E5200 (brain-dead easy to OC) for almost nothing and swap-in a nice quad when the prices drop even further.
- Zalman CNPS 9700 NT cooler
Looks cool, and should work OK. For *quiet* however, the HR-01+ is very difficult to beat.
- EVGA GeForce GTX 260 video card
IMO the main advantage of the 260 is the very low idle power. If that is not a consideration (i.e., most of the time you are gaming), then the ATI cards are generally a better value.
- Antec CP-850 power supply
Whoa! Do you actually read this site?? This thing is waaaay overkill. An HX520 would be *plenty* of power.
- 2x Western Digital Caviar Black 1 TB hard drives
Personally, I generally use a 640GB 'blue' for boot and a 1TB 'green' for data (if necessary), but these are fine drives.
- 4x Scythe Gentle Typhoon 1450 RPM fans
Why not slipstreams or S-Flex??


Regarding your mom's computer, IMO small is generally not the fastest path to quiet. It would be very easy to build either an AMD or C2D office system in an Antec Solo that would be effectively silent with only one very low speed fan (plus PS fan). If you splurged on an SSD (Vertex or X25-M), then you probably could make something work in a much smaller case - but it definitely won't be as easy as starting with a Solo.

If small is *the* spec, then consider an inexpensive laptop with integrated graphics and the latest low-power Intel CPUs. For quiet, there is an excellent 3rd party utility for Thinkpads which controls fan speed (TPFanControl), and similar tools may be available for other brands.

Djehuty
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Post by Djehuty » Sat May 16, 2009 5:06 pm

Regarding the Zalman CPU cooler:
cb95014 wrote:Looks cool, and should work OK. For *quiet* however, the HR-01+ is very difficult to beat.
I saw that, but I also saw the warning that you need to be a top-notch system designer in order to make it work. My current computer has a Scythe fanless CPU cooler, to which I had to add a fan because it was overheating like crazy, and it has never been what I'd call cool.

Regarding the power supply:
Whoa! Do you actually read this site?? This thing is waaaay overkill. An HX520 would be *plenty* of power.
I do, but I got suckered by something gadgety. :) The design of the thing is just right for the P183, and it seems it would be better for cooling since it provides a straight path for airflow and a good fan to help it along. Also, while the 520 might suit the bare minimum power needs for this system (the video card requires a 500W power supply), I prefer to go a bit higher than the minimum, and the HX620 costs $10 more than the Antec PSU I purchased.

Regarding fans:
Why not slipstreams or S-Flex??
Er... I thought the Gentle Typhoon was the next step up, in both quietness and airflow. I take it I was wrong? :?
Regarding your mom's computer, IMO small is generally not the fastest path to quiet. It would be very easy to build either an AMD or C2D office system in an Antec Solo that would be effectively silent with only one very low speed fan (plus PS fan). If you splurged on an SSD (Vertex or X25-M), then you probably could make something work in a much smaller case - but it definitely won't be as easy as starting with a Solo.
Very interesting. So the NSK-1380 would be a bad idea? What about the Sonata Elite or Sonata III? Is the Solo a better case? The Sonatas look sleek, but I worry about that gaping hole in the Elite's side. If the Solo is quieter and all-around better, that will be an easy sell. The NSK cube-thing looks nifty, but I know it will be more important to her to have silence than to have a cube.

Thank you for the advice! :)

Nighthog
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Post by Nighthog » Sun May 17, 2009 2:00 am

a single graphics card doesn't need 500watts... no way close. going sli or just having mutiple graphics cards then you might start a need for 500watts and above. The HX520 is all good to go for your system as it is currently, and still have loads off room to spare. Minimum? Makes me laugh! :lol:

Just stick whit the brand names that are proven the be reliable. If you pick a whatever name brand then you might need a 500watt or whatever the graphics card maker recommends. They recommend like 2-3x more power than is actually needed because of all the crap that explodes getting a bit of loaded, or just doesn't give the juice it should, way to much cheap crap going around.
They go the easy way to not get buggered whit people coming and saying my XXX watt PSU wasn't able to power their graphics card when they said it would. XXX number more complaints added.

Damn even I got suckered when I noticed that my old Antec truepower 430watt showed sign off condensator leakage. I decided to buy the PSU for my next new computer earlier, and then I had not read upon all the things I should and bought a 620watt PSU to go whit recommendations. But later when I bought my new computer I bought something completly diffrent from what I had planned and could have managed whit a 300watt psu actually and still have loads off room to psare. But for the computer I had planned the Corsair HX450 would have been way more than enough anyway. :roll:
If my Antec had not started to leak I could have kept it and still have ways off headroom. I still have that Antec around if I have emergencies but there is a risk off it exploding as this model has been reported of doing sometimes after some years of usage. (Mine is already 5 years old) :roll:

amabhy
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Post by amabhy » Sun May 17, 2009 8:03 am

Yep a single graphics card system definitely will not use even close to 500w. On the other hand, PSU's tend to be most efficient at about 50% percent load, so you'll be saving energy.

Djehuty
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Location: Pennsylvania

Post by Djehuty » Sun May 17, 2009 9:03 am

Thanks for the advice, folks. :)

When presented with small-tower options, Mum liked the look of the mini-P180. So I don't think I'll have to worry about noise or cooling after all. :)

Olle P
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Post by Olle P » Sun May 17, 2009 9:36 am

The 500W "requirement" comes from nVidia having to specify something that's pretty sure to be able to provide sufficient 12V power.
Older designs of PSUs generally can't more than roughly half of their total maximum power on the 12V line, while new designs often can deliver much more 12V.
A lower rated power supply with high 12V output is therefore to be preferred.

Cheers
Olle

Shamgar
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Post by Shamgar » Sun May 17, 2009 10:47 am

Djehuty wrote:A few years ago, I put together a computer based in part on information gleaned from this website. I did a reasonably good job, I think, but I flubbed a few things. Now I'm putting together its replacement, as well as one for a parent who is very greatly bothered by excess noise. I'd be most grateful for some assistance in doing things properly this time around. Smile
I understand your pain. Wanting to build a great system but not quite getting it right. Building another some years down the track to "correct" / make up for your past mistakes/mishaps/misfortunes. :)

Looking at your spec's for PC#1, you've obviously gone for an allrounder gaming/performance oriented system. I'm a light(er) user myself, so I tend to opt for lower - midrange spec'd parts.

I don't have much experience with the Intel side of things (been mostly an AMD user), but the C2D E8400 is pretty much everyone's favourite allrounder. I would have built a system with it if it wasn't so expensive where I live.

For cooling an Intel CPU, I personally would have gone for one of the direct touch heatpipe heatsinks like the Xigmatek HDT-S1283 or one of its many derivatives. Performance is exemplary when installed properly, and you can always swap out the quiet stock PWM fan for a quieter one if you wish. Great value for money and I'm sure you can find a great price from many vendors in the US.

Some users on the forums report success with a Scythe Ninja Mini on their E8400. But since you'll be gaming with that GTX 260 and pushing the CPU a bit, it might be wise to go for a larger heatsink. Anyway, there's many choices these days for Intel CPU heatsinks.

I would also suggest investing in a good quality TIM (thermal interface material). It is much better than the stock stuff and doesn't cost much at all. People seem to have their favourite and are willing to die to defend its cooling performance honour (j/k). I'll fly the flag for Arctic Cooling MX-2. It has worked very well so far on my AMD Athlon X2 4850e. Excellent reviews for it also. One here.

As I don't game, I can't comment on your video card, but from what I know, the GTX 260 would draw a fair bit of power on high load, but nowhere near 500W! That's just a manufacturer's trick so you can't blame them when you choose a poor quality PSU. Don't trust their claims for "quiet" or "silence" either. Read SPCR's articles and real users' feedback.

For power supplies, it's more important to look for voltage regulation/delivery, stability, and power efficiency than high wattage ratings. Some high rated PSUs are very efficient nowadays, so if you're happy with the Antec, I don't see it as a problem. Stick with reputable brands with no hassle long warranties. You can always return it if you do run into hassles later on.

Those hard drives are plenty fast and are acoustically on par with the Caviar Blue which is very quiet in most situations. More space than I would need, but then again, more is better than running out of space. You get a 5 year warranty on the Black versions as well.

I use Scythe Slipstream and Noctua fans in my setup, so I can't make a judgement on the Gentle Typhoons. They do seem interesting though... perhaps they are made a bit better than the Slipstreams. I can get them locally, but they cost $25 AUD, a bit more than I want to spend on a fan at the moment. My Slipstreams cost $13 each, but my 92mm Noctua a fairly pricey $23. Then again, I paid $20 plus $8 shipping for a 80mm Panaflo fan in 2003, so it's all relative!

For PC#2, I would suggest sticking to Intel also with a lower spec'd CPU like E5200, an integrated GPU chipset, 2-4GB matched pair branded RAM with Lifetime warranty, maybe a 2.5" system drive, another large drive for backups and storage. Storage drives are a "you don't know really how good/quiet/fast it is until you use it" so you just have to go for your gut feeling on this. I don't know how much you gain going for an E7xxx series over the E5xxx, but if the price difference isn't much, go for the better spec'd one.

If you're going for a mATX motherboard with integrated graphics, then you can opt for a smaller tower like an Antec NSK3480 or Antec Mini P180, both of which can only take mATX boards anyway. The 3480 is a "rough and ready" case that suits those who really don't care that much about looks and feel, and who will probably mod it later. The Mini P180 is a better looking case, a much smaller derivative of the fridge that is the P180/182. I don't mind it myself. The only problem you may have is getting a short enough DVD/optical drive to fit in the top bay and knowing how to deal with the 200mm top fan. I have an Antec Solo, a good case with a few minor question marks over quality, but a solid choice all round for a quiet system with good aesthetics to go with it. A good quality 330-450W PSU should be more than enough. Same suggestions as above, with 80%+ efficiency an important factor for lower power PCs.

Since you're buying this for your Mum, I would get her opinions on the build first. Trust me, from experience, buying things that you think your Mum would like, and finding out that she doesn't quite share your enthusiasm for the products is quite a problem. Things like case appearance, accessibility of controls, looks and feel can be very important, more so than the hardware inside.

If your Mum is just a light computer user, needing to check emails, browse the web, view family photos etc, you might consider something like an ASUS EEE Box. If you want to build a tiny sleek system yourself, it would take a lot more thought and planning. Parts and choices tend to be limited with tiny systems, so I wouldn't venture into this haphazardly. Save yourself some heartache. Do some thorough planning beforehand.

That's all I can think of for now. My experience with computer building is limited, but I know enough to get things done. So I don't know if I have helped you or not. :(

Hope you can narrow your choices down and find a solution that you will *both* be happy with. :)

CA_Steve
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Post by CA_Steve » Sun May 17, 2009 11:13 am

Some advice on building a PC for your mom - don't! :D

Unless you like being Mr tech support for every last Windows bug/error/where did that go issue. I opted to go the Mac route for my parents and only get one or so tech support question a year. My last "build" for my mom was a Mac Mini 2 years ago. Bought the low end version, added some memory to it, got a nice 20" monitor for her and called it a day. Inexpensive, small footprint, low power use, quiet. Does everything she needs. Low frustration levels for both of you is worth the Mac tax.

Djehuty
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Post by Djehuty » Sun May 17, 2009 3:02 pm

Shamgar, thank you very much for the detailed reply! That's some helpful advice. I appreciate it. :)

CA_Steve, I'd do as you suggest, but it wouldn't help. I'll be tech support no matter what -- I may as well know exactly what's going on in there. :)

DanceMan
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Post by DanceMan » Sun May 17, 2009 4:43 pm

For Mum's computer:

Have one here built with a single core Atom DTX motherboard. Has only one fan (psu), draws 39 watts on idle, and on surfing and downloading simultaneously. What on earth would she do with an E8400? An overclocked E1200 (dead easy and would still be quiet with the default hsf) would be overkill.

Shamgar
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Post by Shamgar » Sun May 17, 2009 11:17 pm

Djehuty wrote:Shamgar, thank you very much for the detailed reply! That's some helpful advice. I appreciate it. :)
No problem. Glad to be of help.
CA_Steve wrote:Low frustration levels for both of you is worth the Mac tax.
That's what I suggested other members of my own family, but the "tax" and the much lower bang for buck remains a drawback. Going the PC route means that I will continue to be "Mr tech support" for many years to come. :(
DanceMan wrote:What on earth would she do with an E8400? An overclocked E1200 (dead easy and would still be quiet with the default hsf) would be overkill.
I think the E8400 system is for himself and a lower spec'd system for his Mum. He hasn't said what tasks she would be using it for, but I would prefer to have a little more power than necessary for a family use computer, just in case you want to have a go at video editing and digital image processing and the like. It really is down to the individual/s and what *they are happy with* at the end of the day.

I tototally agree with others in keeping "Mum's computer" simple with easy maintenance. Less headaches for both of you! :)

hybrid2d4x4
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Re: Advice Needed for Two New PCs

Post by hybrid2d4x4 » Thu May 28, 2009 7:48 am

- Zalman CNPS 9700 NT cooler
I must've missed the memo about Zalman making quiet fans now...

The Gentle Typhoons haven't been tested on here yet, but Scythe has yet to drop the ball in the quiet fan dept. I personally would have waited for the clean bill of health from MikeC on those.

Also, with your mum's computer, you could probably go a lot lower spec than the E7400 without her noticing the difference. I'd lean towards the E5200 if intel, but would also consider a 4xxx or 5xxx Athlon X2 on a 780G board. Would she even need anywhere near 1TB? I'd go for a single platter 500GB or if you want to spend 1TB money, maybe a 30GB vertex (assuming she doesn't do much more than emails/internet and doesn't need the storage) or other non-JMicron-controlled SSD. The actual usage experience would be much more improved by moving up to a SSD than from a budget CPU to a high-end CPU, according to a lot of reviewers.

sschnee
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Post by sschnee » Thu May 28, 2009 6:55 pm

For your mother's PC, have you considered the Dell Studio Hybrids? Not too expensive, small, would save you the effort of building. Not sure how loud they are, but should be quiet based purely on specs. Anyone here have one and would like to comment?

MikeC
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Post by MikeC » Thu May 28, 2009 10:50 pm

A Dell Studio Hybrid isn't really quiet because of its tonal noise -- see our review - http://www.silentpcreview.com/Dell_StudioHybrid

I agree with others who point out that the mom PC can be something as low end as a dualcore Atom mini-ITX -- esp w/ a SSD, "heatsink case", and fanless PSU. The ideal combo would be the Zotac IONITX-A-U in the little Apex MI-008 mini-ITX case with its standard PSU removed -- the Zotac board comes with its own fanless power adapter! (and wireless ethernet card.) We have a review sample coming our way -- I'm even excited about it. :oops: :roll:

Anyway, add a 120gb Vertex, 2 sticks of DDR 800 for 2GB RAM (or splurge on 4GB), optical drive, and a memory card reader for the case -- your mother will be delighted w/ the absolute silence of the system, the sleek style, wee size, and the perfectly good performance for anything she will do with it.

The biggest cost will be the SSD for ~$400, and the rest might come up to about as much. For 90% of users, it will be a PC made in heaven. In fact, I am thinking of just something like this for my wife.

speedkar9
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Re: Advice Needed for Two New PCs

Post by speedkar9 » Sun May 31, 2009 5:49 am

Djehuty wrote:And since she has never played a computer game other than Solitaire and Mah Jongg, I know she doesn't need much in the way of graphics power.
I'm going to lean towards hybrid2d4x4 and Shamgar's suggestions for the mum pc, 4850X2+780G+Scythe Mini Ninja+Antec 3480 (with Scythe fan-swaped in the 380W PSU)+WD 640 (green or blue). Even quieter would be a Solo (w/suspension) + Corsair VX450. Paired with a decent rear 120mm fan, the system should be overall fairly quiet, power efficient, and best of all, inexpensive.

You don't need a C2D to play Solitaire and check email.... lol

You mentioned your mum likes the P180 mini. Has she seen it in person? You realize this case is about as big as a regular midtower right? I thought she liked the idea of remaining small.

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