RAM for Q9550

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alleycat
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RAM for Q9550

Post by alleycat » Mon Jun 15, 2009 6:52 am

Hi folks, haven't needed to look into this sort of thing before, was hoping to get some advice. A friend who is a professional photographer wants me to build a Q9550 system for Photoshop. I noticed it has a 1333 MHz FSB so I was thinking of getting DDR3-1333 RAM (and appropriate motherboard). Is it worth the extra cost? Or should I just stick with cheaper DDR2-800? Thanks.

LodeHacker
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Re: RAM for Q9550

Post by LodeHacker » Mon Jun 15, 2009 6:53 am

alleycat wrote:Hi folks, haven't needed to look into this sort of thing before, was hoping to get some advice. A friend who is a professional photographer wants me to build a Q9550 system for Photoshop. I noticed it has a 1333 MHz FSB so I was thinking of getting DDR3-1333 RAM (and appropriate motherboard). Is it worth the extra cost? Or should I just stick with cheaper DDR2-800? Thanks.
Can you tell us which motherboard is currently installed in your friend's PC?

alleycat
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Post by alleycat » Mon Jun 15, 2009 7:04 am

I'm building the whole thing from scratch. So far I've chosen a Gigabyte EP45T-UD3P.

lm
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Post by lm » Mon Jun 15, 2009 7:25 am

The Q9550 has a whopping 12MB of cache on die, 6MB shared between each pair of cores. That's more than ever before on a non-server grade cpu. And actually the newer i7 cpus have less than this.

Another important point is, that unlike the latest i7 cpus, the Q9550 does not have an on die memory controller, relying instead on one on the motherboard. This means worse latencies than the integrated approach.

These two factors combined basically mean that with the Q9550, memory speed means much less than on most other cpus.

That being said, the best thing to do is to run in sync with the FSB. The FSB is quad pumped, so basically it's 4x333. DDR2 is dual data rate, so 667MHz DDR2 would be 2x333 and run in 1:1 sync with the cpu. But basically 800MHz costs just as much, and memory can always be run slower than it's specs, so people usually buy 800MHz.

I haven't looked lately into the prices of 1333MHz DDR2, but I would assume them to be much more than 800MHz DDR2 is. Of course the 1333MHz is also in sync with the cpu at 2:1.

So basically, your two options are to buy the cheapest at-least-667MHz DDR2 or then that 1333MHz DDR2, however anything in between only makes sense if it's cheap.

What is much more important in this case is quantity. With a Q9550 you can get 8GB of RAM, and that much you definitely should get. Image manipulation really can eat up your RAM, and lots of even slower RAM is always faster than less of more expensive RAM, if you end up needing to use swap because of choosing the latter.

But why don't you build on the new i7 instead? Some X58 mobos allow 24GB of RAM.

Arvo
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Post by Arvo » Mon Jun 15, 2009 7:29 am

I don't think he can notice (or even benchmark) DDR2-800 and DDR3-1333 speed difference. Of course psychological factor - I paid a lot more, thereby it is faster of course - may alter things somewhat :)

You need to buy at least two fast HDDs (one for system/images and another for Photoshop scratch (?) files) to make Photoshop faster, not to play with RAM timings. 64bit system with 6-8GB RAM may help also, increasing windows file cache size.

alleycat
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Post by alleycat » Mon Jun 15, 2009 7:51 am

Thanks for the great advice, looks like DDR2-800 is the winner, as I can get it quite cheap. I had already planned to get 8GB, and running Windows 7 64-bit. Will be getting OCZ Vertex as well as WD6401AALS.

I was debating about i7, but the cost is starting to get too high with the upgraded motherboard also. I was also concerned about extra heat.

Broadleaf
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Post by Broadleaf » Mon Jun 15, 2009 9:17 am

I have not yet found a mainboard that did not work (100% reliable) with Kingston ValueRAM.

danimal
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Post by danimal » Mon Jun 15, 2009 9:27 am

bang for the buck with the q9550 is not very good... stick with a core2quad that is much cheaper, and overclock it... i use a q9400, think about looking at the models that have virtualization technology capability.

cpu heat with the i7, or any cpu for that matter, is not an issue, if you get the right cpu cooler... the scythe mugen 2 can handle anything you throw at it, with minimal fan noise, because the fan doesn't turn that fast.

ram is dirt cheap right now, even in australia you should be able to get ddr2-1066 for next to nothing... faster ram will leave you some room for overclocking, depending on the multiplier you get with your cpu.

Broadleaf
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Post by Broadleaf » Mon Jun 15, 2009 11:25 am

I never overclock a customers computer except during the hardware certification process. The system goes out the door at stock speeds and ready for years of reliable service. I gently recommend home users against overclocking and I strongly dissuade professional users from overclocking a work machine.

I don't know if the socket 1366 mainboards are mature yet. The Q9950 at stock speed should get the work done with no comebacks for you..
Last edited by Broadleaf on Tue Jun 16, 2009 2:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

danimal
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Post by danimal » Tue Jun 16, 2009 8:27 am

the 920 costs about the same as a q9550 these days, and with the prices dropping rapidly on ddr3 ram, about the only premium you'll pay for the i7 platform is maybe $100 more for the motherboard... so if you need the horsepower, overclocking is about the only reason to stick with the old core2quads.

i was a pc network admin for 10 years, and with the right hardware and setup, i wouldn't hesitate to recommend reasonable overclocking to a client who is capable of handling it.

if overclocking is done right, it's reliable, and it won't hurt the hardware.

LodeHacker
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Post by LodeHacker » Tue Jun 16, 2009 8:53 am

danimal wrote:if overclocking is done right, it's reliable, and it won't hurt the hardware.
AMEN. If reliability or stability suffers from overclocking then it's done wrong.

If you didn't know (but I don't have evidence it is true), most budget CPUs are underclocked counterparts of higher end / faster CPUs. This means that with a well done overclocking setup you'll get the same performance as the more expensive and faster CPU and won't dramatically shorten the CPU's life as it was originally designed to handle faster speeds.

After discovering the possibility of overclocking I stopped paying for faster CPUs and instead started overclocking budget CPUs. An aftermarket cooler is quieter than the retail box cooler anyway, so use the potential of that cooler :D

Cistron
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Post by Cistron » Tue Jun 16, 2009 11:37 am

Rather invest the money in a 64bit OS and 8-16GB of cheaper RAM. If your friend is a photoshop 'zealot', I'm sure he'll appreciate having more than 2GB of memory at hand.

edit: woops, should have read lm's post thoroughly.

alleycat
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Post by alleycat » Wed Jun 17, 2009 3:11 am

Some interesting points being raised here, however I think I will probably stick with the Q9550 at stock speed for now. This is already a massive upgrade from his current system. I will be using a Xigmatek S1283 so if there is a need for higher speeds in the future, we can try overclocking for a free boost.

It's tempting to get the i7, but it's not my money I'm spending, and after taking everything into consideration, the total system cost would increase by over $300. I'm not sure that the relative performance gain is worth it at this time.

danimal
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Post by danimal » Wed Jun 17, 2009 11:39 am

if you haven't purchased the cpu cooler yet, the mugen 2 is better, and slightly cheaper, than the xigmatek, because you should get the $10 mounting bracket for the xigmatek... go over to xbit labs and look at the cooler tests.

it sounds like the pricing down under is running behind what we are paying here, because there isn't a $300 platform difference in the states anymore.

here is the core i7 920 at $229:
http://microcenter.com/single_product_r ... id=0302727

q9550 price comparisons, one vendor at $219, all the rest at $229 or higher:
http://shopping.msn.com/prices/intel-co ... -processor

dell has been blowing out 920-based pc's at the scratch&dent outlet for under $600.

one big drawback to sticking with the older lga775 socket is that it's not nearly as future-proof as the i7-based solutions... he basically won't be able to upgrade the cpu performance.

that said, the q9550 has an unlocked multiplier, so it's about as good an overclocking cpu as you're going to get in the lga775 platform... if only the price would drop to a more reasonable level!

LodeHacker
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Post by LodeHacker » Wed Jun 17, 2009 12:12 pm

danimal wrote:that said, the q9550 has an unlocked multiplier
No it doesn't.

danimal
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Post by danimal » Wed Jun 17, 2009 7:45 pm

whoops, you are right, one less reason to get the q9550! lol

LodeHacker
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Post by LodeHacker » Thu Jun 18, 2009 12:32 am

danimal wrote:whoops, you are right, one less reason to get the q9550! lol
To be honest an unlocked multiplier is not that useful. If your motherboard is not capable of driving the FSB at higher speeds then it's not a good board for overclocking in the first place. I have a Core 2 Extreme system at "work" and although it is fun to see and try how far you can go with the O.C., the old classic way is much more fun :P

danimal
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Post by danimal » Thu Jun 18, 2009 10:25 am

true, the mb is critical... i can't reliably go over 1:1 with this old gigabyte mb that i'm using, so an unlocked multiplier probably wouldn't help much at all.

what you gain from overlocking the ram isn't always that beneficial anyway... i've seen tests that showed maybe a frame or two with crysis, which i'd be glad to have, but for real work like video rendering, it didn't amount to much.

i'd like to believe that ram overclocking is something to worry about, if it's limiting your cpu overclocking?

LodeHacker
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Post by LodeHacker » Thu Jun 18, 2009 10:51 am

danimal wrote:i'd like to believe that ram overclocking is something to worry about, if it's limiting your cpu overclocking?
If you have slow enough RAM (667Mhz for instance), it can limit the overclock when striking for higher FSB speed, which is the reason why I buy HyperX memory form Kingston at fast speeds like 1066Mhz. They both underclock and overclock well and I've yet to see an overclock where the RAM was the limiting factor.

Broadleaf
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Post by Broadleaf » Thu Jun 18, 2009 12:52 pm

I leave my computer running 7/24 because the sattelite TV card disagrees with sleep mode and so the EIST is a must for me otherwise my den gets very warm. I'm overclocking the 2.4 GHz Pentium Dual Core E2220 in my main PC to 2.9 Ghz. The FSB is bumped up to 242 MHz and if I interfere with the core voltage then the EIST doesn't work. The ASUS P5WDG2 WS PRO mainboard hasn't had a BIOS update since 03/06/2008 and won't ever because it is discontinued. I never worry about RAM speed as it makes very little performance difference and just leave the setting to auto. The ASUS engineers know what they are doing.

LodeHacker
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Post by LodeHacker » Thu Jun 18, 2009 1:09 pm

Broadleaf wrote:I leave my computer running 7/24 because the sattelite TV card disagrees with sleep mode and so the EIST is a must for me otherwise my den gets very warm. I'm overclocking the 2.4 GHz Pentium Dual Core E2220 in my main PC to 2.9 Ghz. The FSB is bumped up to 242 MHz and if I interfere with the core voltage then the EIST doesn't work. The ASUS P5WDG2 WS PRO mainboard hasn't had a BIOS update since 03/06/2008 and won't ever because it is discontinued. I never worry about RAM speed as it makes very little performance difference and just leave the setting to auto. The ASUS engineers know what they are doing.
Hahah, funny isn't it? A couple of years back I wanted to buy a P5WDG2 WS PRO, but went for the cheaper P5K WS. Now I'm reconsidering buying it again through eBay http://cgi.ebay.com/ASUS-P5WDG2-WS-STAT ... 1|294%3A50

I really must laugh for the price, I mean so cheap no one has ever bought a workstation motherboard :D Now you're feeling pissed, right? :lol:

So, would you recommend it for a new build?

Broadleaf
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Post by Broadleaf » Thu Jun 18, 2009 3:21 pm

- LodeHacker -
Q: So, would you recommend it for a new build?
A: I wouldn't stick my neck out to recommend a used and discontinued mainboard. The seller says "slight used motherboard in perfect condiction".

The list of supported CPU's is frozen now. I wish that ASUS would put the SL number on the supported CPU list as that is what is on the retail box label at the parts store. All someone would need to do is print out the list and take it to the store with them. Some people bought the P5WDG2 WS PRO and a Core 2 Duo E8500 and are very sad because they did not pay attention to the "rev.C0" from the supported CPU list. As far as I know the all the currently available retail boxed E8500's CPU's are rev.E0.

Q: Now you're feeling pissed, right?
A: I got mine cheaper than that. It is my son-in-law's cast off. I have only purchased the DVD burner, E2220 and Ninja. The E2220 slows from 12x to 6x and drops the voltage a tad when idling. The E2220 doesn't have VT but I'm on a tight budget.

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