Looking for advice on platform

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Cams
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Looking for advice on platform

Post by Cams » Sat Aug 01, 2009 12:44 pm

My motherboard died a few weeks ago. I've considered a new system several times in the last couple of years but affordability has stopped me in my tracks and I've muddled through. Now that my socket 939 motherboard has died, I'm more or less resigned to a new system rather than a replacement 939 motherboard.

So, a quick bit of research reveals that it's as much a minefield as ever it was.

I do a bit of video and photo editing, but less than I used to. I just like the feel of a zippy machine: not waiting ten seconds to launch Excel or Firefox; photos loading instantly in Lightroom; not having time to boil the kettle whilst waiting for Photoshop to load, that sort of thing.

Given that the bones of my current system were put together in 2005 and the fact that it may be as long again before I can allow myself another new system, it makes sense for me to keep the upgrade path open. To that end, it seems that the i7 or AM3 make the most sense.

I have an Antec SLK3000B case (orange Nexus fan on front and rear), Scythe Ninja (currently fanless) and Seasonic S12 430W PSU. Cost is an issue, so I would rather buy parts that would allow me to continue using my existing case, heatsink and PSU. Does that rule out the i7 and AM3?

I am sure that a Core 2 Quad with DDR2 would give me enough performance -- going from a AMD64 3500+ with 2GB of RAM, it would be a huge performance bump!

My budget is 500 of our good British pounds, give or take and it needs to be now.

I would love to hear from anyone, anyone at all, who can help.

Many thanks
Cams

JamieG
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Post by JamieG » Sat Aug 01, 2009 3:52 pm

I just had a quick look at Scan.co.uk and an i7 920 plus the cheapest compatible X58 motherboard is about 340 pounds incl VAT. You'd want at least 3Gb of RAM but 6Gb would be better for video and photo editing if you have 64-bit Windows to address that amount of RAM (add 50 / 90 pounds respectively for DDR3-1333).

A 430W PSU shouldn't rule out an i7-based system, provided that you don't do any overclocking or add in a beastly graphics card.

You would need a new mounting kit to keep your Ninja, otherwise you would have to find a new heatsink. You wouldn't be able to run it fanless though, I don't think.

You might have better luck with an AM3 system - if you don't need the massive performance of an i7 then this could be good. I don't know enough about the AMD side to give you any particularly good suggestions here, but I'm sure someone here can help you out.

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Post by jessekopelman » Sat Aug 01, 2009 4:10 pm

I think people overvalue the idea of being able to keep their MB through multiple CPU upgrades. Yes, this is valuable if you buy a new CPU every year, but not so much otherwise. Buying a new $100 MB every 3 years, vs. keeping your $200 MB 3 years is pretty much a wash. Beyond that, though, the chances of some new technology being on the new MB or the best CPU being on some completely different socket from the old MB seem to grow exponentially the longer the period between upgrades. Given that both USB3 and SATA3 are right around the corner, it seems foolish to think that a MB you buy today will look very good compared to what is available in 3 years. Let's face it, all your main components (MB, RAM, and HDD)are just as likely to be obsolete in 3 years as your CPU. The only thing really worth keeping for that sort of upgrade cycle is your case and peripherals like mouse, keyboard, and speakers. Even your monitor is likely to be prime for upgrade within 5 years of purchase.

Personally I'd stay away from i7. As an upgrade path, it is suboptimal for most people; as i7 is Intel's "Pro" line going forward and i5 will be the consumer line. Also, for most users a 920 does not provide a real performance advantage over a similarly priced C2Q. If I were going Intel right now, I'd get the best value socket 775 MB and a whatever 45nm chip met my needs and just plan on replacing the MB when I did my next upgrade.

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Post by Cams » Mon Aug 03, 2009 1:00 pm

Some good advice regarding the upgrade path being irrational. Also the heat of the i7 could be an issue. Same goes for the AMD 955 Black Edition. At the moment I'm kind of settling on a Core2 Quad, perhaps the Q9450 OEM which is going on overclockers.co.uk for £150 with tax. Would the Scythe Ninja fit on that?

As for motherboards, there do seem to be rather a lot of them. What's the consensus on P45 vs X48 vs nForce chipsets? I'm not looking to use SLI or anything like that; just looking to carry on using my passive 8600GT, SATA (x3) and IDE (1 HDD and 1 optical) drives.

Contenders are:
  • Asus P5N-D @ £86.99
  • Asus P5Q Pro Turbo Intel P45 @ £89.99
  • Gigabyte GA-X48-DS5 @ £99.99
I've had two ASUS boards fail on me (out of a possible 2) and 1 Gigabyte board still going after 8 years of use, but I tend to think I've just been unlucky with ASUS, since they do seem to be quite popular on SPCR.

Any thoughts anyone?[/list]

Cams
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Post by Cams » Mon Aug 03, 2009 1:34 pm

Just been looking at stuff on scan.co.uk (thanks for the link for that JamieG, I didn't know about them) and they have a couple of Core2 Quads ending in an S which purport to be 65W rather than 95W. That would mean less heat, right? Could that make a big difference when it comes to cooling with my Scythe?

And what's the difference between the Q8xxx and Q9xxx CPUS?

And does the cache size make a big difference?

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Post by thejamppa » Mon Aug 03, 2009 2:02 pm

Difference between Q8xxxx and Q9xxxx is that only latter one has VT support that is only real major difference... Cache makes difference... in certain programs. That just is dependable on program architechture. Generally most games and heavier graphic programs do benefit from larger cache somewhat. Not all but some.

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Post by sonic6k » Mon Aug 03, 2009 3:07 pm

Cams wrote:Just been looking at stuff on scan.co.uk (thanks for the link for that JamieG, I didn't know about them) and they have a couple of Core2 Quads ending in an S which purport to be 65W rather than 95W. That would mean less heat, right? Could that make a big difference when it comes to cooling with my Scythe?

And what's the difference between the Q8xxx and Q9xxx CPUS?

And does the cache size make a big difference?
Hello good friend,

Maybe you find this SPCR article interesting: http://www.silentpcreview.com/article954-page1.html. Also, you maybe want look for this entry in Wikipedia to learn about Core 2 Q8/9xxx series: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_In ... 2845_nm.29. Also for issue with L2 cache maybe you find this article interesting: http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/cac ... ,1709.html.

Also let me help answer your question of motherboard chipset. As it seems now, P45/X48 are going to be last chipset for Socket 775 variant Core 2 processor from Intel. NVIDIA nForce chipset can become very hot, has many issues ranging from incompatibility of CPU or RAM to PCI-Express instability and video errors. Also, boards cost too much. Of course, there are many successful, but lucky installation with NVIDIA chipset. My take? If not SLI, avoid NVIDIA.

P45 can be seen as mainstream chipset and X48 as "enthusiast" chipset. Take latter specifically if you need more overclocking power, because X48 officially support 1600Mhz FSB and many X48 motherboards can go past 2000Mhz. However, I am very sure you don't need this much overclocking or any at all, so go with either if you want good solid board with newest the Socket 775 platform can offer.

I am myself struggling to find motherboard of P45 or X48 chipset, but from your listed contenders, ASUS P5Q PRO TURBO seems like best choice. I understand this is system for very long use, that is why it comes in handy of ASUS motherboard, because it has Japan made conductive polymer capacitor. There is also ASUS EPU, the Energy Processing Unit. Using ASUS software you can choose from different power saving modes and this will instruct EPU chip on motherboard to help make your electrical bill lower. Personally I think this is great concept, even if most saving can be achieved only when overclocking. To learn more about EPU, check ASUS website: http://event.asus.com/mb/6engine/index.htm

Also, you might find it interesting, but your choice of ASUS P5Q PRO TURBO is also ENERGY STAR 5.0 compliant: http://event.asus.com/mb/Energy_Star/. Finally, because this is build for long use, I am very sure you will jump on Windows 7 train when possible, so you will possibly find it also interesting that ASUS P5Q PRO TURBO have Beta driver for Windows 7: http://event.asus.com/mb/Windows_7/

No, I don't work for ASUS :lol:

K.Murx
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Re: Looking for advice on platform

Post by K.Murx » Mon Aug 03, 2009 3:57 pm

Cams wrote:(...) I just like the feel of a zippy machine: not waiting ten seconds to launch Excel or Firefox; photos loading instantly in Lightroom; not having time to boil the kettle whilst waiting for Photoshop to load, that sort of thing.
You do not want a faster processor, you want a solid state disk.
Seriously, read around a bit on the forum here about the experience people have with their SSD ( I personally do not own one, as I am perfectly happy to wait a couple of seconds). They describe just what you want.

So I would suggest you take money out of the processor and MB department (go with a low-wattage C2D or AMD), and invest into an SSD drive :)

alleycat
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Post by alleycat » Mon Aug 03, 2009 4:26 pm

I've got an OCZ Vertex 30GB SSD as my system drive, and everything just snaps open almost instantaneously. Photoshop CS3 opens in just over a second. This is by far the best upgrade I have ever made.

For the motherboard, the Gigabyte GA-EP45-UD3P seems to be the pick of the bunch.

Q9550 has a huge cache, which should be good for Photoshop. If I were on a budget I'd probably just get a cheap dual core like the E6300 - maybe upgrade later? Virtualization could be handy if you want to run Windows 7's XP mode. Get a Xigmatek Crossbow bolt-through kit to mount the Ninja.

Photoshop likes memory, so 8GB of the cheapest Kingston RAM would be useful without costing too much.

EDIT: typo
Last edited by alleycat on Mon Aug 03, 2009 8:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

ascl
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Post by ascl » Mon Aug 03, 2009 5:12 pm

Just to add to what the above 2 posters have said. I recently upgraded my hdd to an SSD... and wow. Its like having a new computer. Everything has been amazingly snappy and fast... and my desire to upgrade the CPU has totally gone. It already feels like a new computer! (I have an OCZ Vertex 120).

Regarding the motherboard... I have a EP45-UD3L and its a great board. I got it after my ASUS X48 board died. No complaints at all with the GB board... my next motherboard will likely be a GB too.

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Post by danimal » Tue Aug 04, 2009 7:43 am

if you are going to edit avchd, and the software you are using doesn't offload the decoding to the gpu, you'll want to either overclock, or get a fast cpu.

the p45 chipset supports 1600+ ddr3.

you'll pay at least a $100 penalty for a i7 mb.

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Post by jessekopelman » Tue Aug 04, 2009 10:05 am

Cams wrote:they have a couple of Core2 Quads ending in an S which purport to be 65W rather than 95W. That would mean less heat, right? Could that make a big difference when it comes to cooling with my Scythe?
It is generally more cost effective to simply get a motherboard that supports undervolting the CPU. The only difference between a "S" and regular C2Q is that the "S" comes undervolted from the factory. The problem is that Intel charges a huge price premium for that feature, while the price-premium for undervolt support in motherboards is much much smaller.

Cams
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Post by Cams » Sun Aug 09, 2009 2:27 pm

You've all been really helpful, as always on this board! Here are the components I've ordered:
  • Intel Core 2 Quad Q9450 LGA775 'Yorkfield' 2.66GHz 12MB-cache (1333FSB) Processor - OEM
  • Kingston SSDNow V Series 64GB 2.5" SATA-II Solid State Hard Drive Kit
  • Asus P5Q Pro Turbo Intel P45 (Socket 775) PCI-Express DDR2 Motherboard
  • Kingston HyperX 8GB (4x2GB) DDR2 8500C5 1066MHz Dual Channel
The solid state drive did seem like a very good idea. This system should last me as long as the old one did and came in short of £500. Looking forward to see how much quicker my photos render in Lightroom!

I'll be installing Windows 7 RC1 64-bit on it in lieu of its becoming available for prime time.

Just hoping I can fit my Scythe Ninja 1000 on the board. I still have the original accessories that it came with.

Big thanks to you all for the help!

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Post by alleycat » Sun Aug 09, 2009 9:53 pm

Hmm... not sure about that SSD. No cache and JMicron controller. Doesn't sound promising.

Cams
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Post by Cams » Mon Aug 10, 2009 2:49 am

alleycat wrote:Hmm... not sure about that SSD. No cache and JMicron controller. Doesn't sound promising.
Way to rain on my parade! I didn't actually do any research on SSDs, other than to read the reviews on the manufacturer's site. It's was the cheapest 64 GB drive there was. Hopefully it'll be all right, but it does have a 3-year warranty if it goes pear-shaped.

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Post by alleycat » Mon Aug 10, 2009 4:14 am

There's always a reason why something's cheap! You could have asked about it here first. Are you able to change your order?

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Post by jessekopelman » Mon Aug 10, 2009 1:49 pm

Cams wrote:
alleycat wrote:Hmm... not sure about that SSD. No cache and JMicron controller. Doesn't sound promising.
Way to rain on my parade! I didn't actually do any research on SSDs, other than to read the reviews on the manufacturer's site. It's was the cheapest 64 GB drive there was. Hopefully it'll be all right, but it does have a 3-year warranty if it goes pear-shaped.
The concern is not that it will fail quickly (warranty), but that it will perform bad right out the gate (JMicron controller). If there is time, cancel/modify your order!

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Post by alleycat » Mon Aug 10, 2009 6:14 pm

^ that's what I was thinking!

OCZ Vertex, G.Skill Falcon, or one of the new Intels would be a better choice.

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Post by Cams » Tue Aug 11, 2009 5:18 am

Just read an article on Tom's Hardware [Avoid Avoid SSDs with Jmicron’s JMF602 Controller] and am now convinced that you are all right and am kicking myself for not doing any research on this before buying. I'm expecting my parts today or tomorrow. If the supplier agrees to my returning it and replacing it with something else, what would you recommend? Here is a link to the supplier's page with 64 GB SSDs:

Overclockers.co.uk

I'm looking for 64. This will be my boot and apps drive and my 37 GB Raptor was complaining about drive space with XP. I imagine Win7 64 will be more space hungry!

Many thanks

alleycat
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Post by alleycat » Tue Aug 11, 2009 6:42 am

Surely they'd let you send it back if the packaging is intact?

The cheapest one worth buying is the G.Skill Falcon but I think you get a shorter warranty and less support than with the OCZ Vertex.

One of the things with SSDs which you may have realised, is that they are bleeding edge technology. This means that you'll need to put a bit of effort into the product to ensure you get the results you want. If you are running Windows 7 (recommended) then life is a lot easier, otherwise you'll need to set up the drive first manually.

Also, the firmware is constantly being upgraded, so you'll need to flash the drive now and then. From what I can tell, the OCZ Vertex has better firmware than the G.Skill Falcon, even though they are physically identical drives. However, according to this article you can flash the Falcon with Vertex firmware, but it may void your warranty (you could probably just reflash with the G.Skill firmware if you needed to, but I'm guessing).

The reason I mention this is because OCZ is releasing a new firmware on Thursday this week which will include some major improvements, the most important one being idle time garbage collection. I don't know when/if G.Skill will update their firmware with this capability, but it's not a disaster if you want to wait a while. If you haven't already, you'll need to read Anandtech's now famous article on SSD technology to understand why this is significant.

Bottom line: regardless of what you buy, you're going to need to do a firmware update anyway, so if I were buying again today, I'd probably get the G.Skill Falcon and save myself a few quid.

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Post by Cams » Tue Aug 11, 2009 7:16 am

Thanks for such a comprehensive response. I just did a bit of reading on the Kingson V-series and it seems that the issues with the J-Micron controller have been fixed.

techwarelabs
techwarelabs wrote:For those that haven’t been following the evolution of SSD’s, a little back story is required. The first wave of entry-level SSD’s that hit the market featured the JMicron controller, including the Patriot Warp drive that we reviewed. This controller has a 16KB onboard cache that would rapidly fill up during small block reads/writes and would cause the operating system to appear to studder. Kingston remedies this by upping the cache to 64KB (which should help eliminate the saturation problem) and installing their own custom flavor of firmware. If you crack open the drive you will see that the chip says Toshiba, but Kingston has assured us that it is in fact a JMicron controller. We’ve been informed by Kingston that their engineers have been working very closely with both JMicron and Toshiba extensively over the last six months to correct that stuttering problem.
All the reviews I've read are positive as well. Might it be that the Kingston drive is okay to keep?

I'll read those links about SSD technology later on; thanks for posting them for me.

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Post by alleycat » Tue Aug 11, 2009 7:29 am

It is a fast moving industry, so I wouldn't be surprised if they've solved a few problems. I wonder how garbage collection is handled on these drives?

Anyway, at least you're aware of some of the issues now, so you can make your decisions accordingly. Let's hope you're onto a winner!

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Post by nutball » Tue Aug 11, 2009 11:37 am

If it were me I wouldn't touch a JMicron-based SSD with a barge-pole for quite a while to come. They're talking about on-board caches of tens of kilobytes, their competitors are shipping SSDs with caches of tens of megabytes. I'm far from convinced that the hardware review sites methodologies are really where they need to be to properly test these devices, but I'm even less convinced that a mere quadrupling of the cache will solve the problem.

Cams - you maybe already know this but under UK Distance Selling Regulations you have the statutory right to return goods ordered via post/internet in an unopened state no-questions-asked. There are timescales attached (I think you have to notify the retailer within 7 working days of delivery) but you shouldn't get hoodwinked by OCUK into accepting goods you may now regret having ordered. They have to take them back if you don't want them.

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Post by jessekopelman » Tue Aug 11, 2009 4:03 pm

Cams wrote:Might it be that the Kingston drive is okay to keep?
I'd say no. Random writes, the cause of the stuttering problems that made JMicron infamous, are still very low. From some other reviews, it looks like this drive is just fast enough that it won't stutter, but I'd be concerned; knowing that performance of these things is better right out of the box than after months of steady use (due to the way MLC handles overwriting data). If these drives can handle the Trim command once it is supported by Vista/W7, maybe that won't be an issue, though. Still, current BIOS does not support Trim and I saw nothing that promised future support. Also, even if this drive doesn't ever stutter, the deal killer to me is that it does not clearly outperform conventional HDD like the better SSD (Vertex and above) do. If I'm going to spend the high premium just to get an SSD, I'm going to spend a bit more and try and get one that won't seem embarrassingly slow in 1 year. If the price is too much of an issue, it might be better to live with just a conventional HDD and get the SSD next year when they will be twice as good for half the money.

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Post by Cams » Wed Aug 12, 2009 1:05 pm

Okay, I'm more or less convinced to return the Kingston drive. OCUK does accept returns and I didn't peel off the shrink wrap. OCUK has a 'this week only' deal on an OCZ Summit.

OCZ Summit

Basically it's a fiver off. Anyone know about these drives? I must admit I am wondering whether the comment to wait a while until they twice as good at half the price and carry on with my 37 GB Raptor in the meantime. I was so excited at the thought of an SSD though. The Anandtech review makes me want one too.

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Post by jessekopelman » Wed Aug 12, 2009 1:49 pm

Cams wrote:Okay, I'm more or less convinced to return the Kingston drive. OCUK does accept returns and I didn't peel off the shrink wrap. OCUK has a 'this week only' deal on an OCZ Summit.

OCZ Summit

Basically it's a fiver off. Anyone know about these drives?
This drive uses a Samsung controller with a ton of cache. Performance isn't as impressive as one might expect and Samsung decided not to sell this model under their own brand! The thing that makes me dubious is that OCZ originally intended for this to slot as a higher end product than the Vertex, yet it is already price reduced to below the Vertex . . ! The G. Skill Falcon is kind of a budget knockoff of the OCZ Vertex (same hardware, but the company is known to not be as good about support and BIOS updates -- already behind OCZ on the current BIOS). Really, if you want an SSD bad, I think you've got to bite the bullet and get at least an OCZ Vertex. Personally, the price is just too steeps. Value is fine though -- I just don't care enough about performance. If you can live with the noise from your Raptor, I think you are in a good position to wait things out a bit. Even waiting 3 months will make a difference, in terms of pricing, since new models and revisions are coming fast and furious.

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