DAW with raid 5. Help Please.

[Stokesperc]

I'm building a new pc to be used for mastering recording and producing
music in a room that I am building onto my house.

Running mostly Ableton Live with lots of effects, instruments, tracks and vsts.
I will be doing a lot of in house sampling.

I know this may be overkill but I would like to build an i7 930 system with
a raid 5 with 3 HHDs in addition to an ssd for OS and programs.

I have never used raid before but i would like to set up raid 5 because it is an instant backup safegaurd without the loss of performance OF RAID 1

This being a DAW pc it should be quiet.

This being said is this possible in an Antec Solo(I already have this case)
If not possible, is it difficult to build an external hardware Raid 5 array that sits in another room.

Going external would leave only the MOBO, RAM, PSU, GPU(ASUS Passive 5350) CPU and SSD to power and keep cool and quiet inside the case.

Any Suggestions, opinions, thoughts?

Stokesperc

[TangoGranny]

Well 1st

I'm a long-time computer tech and recording artist with about 20+ years in studio gear.

My first bit of advice is this: unless you MUST and NEED Raid, of any kind,
DO NOT DO IT. The biggest and 1st mistake new people make with gear is getting stuff they might be able to afford but don't understand very well. Think about it- why Raid? who told you you need it?

Either you're on one of those "gear kicks" and have the money to get in over your head, or you've read just enough to get yourself into trouble- kind of like Karate classes, without a black belt or real street experience.

RAID is far more consumer friendly these days BUT BUT BUT
it is NO kind of guarantee against data loss. If your memory isn't top of the line and ECC/registered, you'll loose all the data the first time you read/write when it goes bad.
Since you're using Ableton, you're on Windows (and if you're smart, Windows XP). Linux would be better, and with your budget, I'd either go with a linux server and spend your time and energy learning about quiet systems (like a quad core with a Scythe Mugen 2 HSF and some big GPU no-fan HS's and two 120mm fans to push-pull in and out of the case).
OR
Look into a quad/dual-quad G5 and load it with linux AND windows.
That all is overkill, as an old AMD XP2400+ will run everything except a ton of VSTS' with no problems!

Raid is super dangerous unless you are using a server with Registered ECC ram. Why is it dangerous? Because in windows (since you're using Ableton) every time your system even LOOKS at a directory, if your RAM somehow is OC'd or non-stock or otherwise CAN have errors of ANY kind, it will corrupt all the data in the directories it "sees"

So all the data, on ALL the Hd's in the RAID array, will still "be good" but useless in the REAL WORLD as it's hosed as far as ever being able to be used, read or recovered. Also ANY HD's for backups plugged into a system with bad RAM will also loose all the data on them- I.E. corrupted.

so RAID isn't the issue or the solution for DATA protection,
GOOD ECC RAM is!!! (error checking/correcting), and redundant systems with the same data on them. I.E. two less expensive systems chained together doing the same thing back and forth, which is what IT techs and RAID farms do. RAID is just one piece of the puzzle and a
BIG consumer fad.

Raid has one good thing it can do, in a system that's perfect and won't ever fail- it protects against possible HD failures. But even then, when one fails, since most people buy their HD's in batches from the same vendors usually the whole lot fails (same day is my experience- rendering the RAID a complete waste of time).

I'd recommend a dual-quad core cheaper system, and if you're really concerned about data loss, spend more time and energy looking into what and how data fails, and how to set up a ECC/Registered RAM based system, with some off-line backup solution that can be checked and will work while you're not working. That way you only ever loose one session or day's work, and your back ups can secure.

Dual Xeon server, Dual or single QUAD MacIntel, or dual ECC systems in a quiet setup.

I use two linux systems, with giant HSF's and ECC ram, single Hd's (they are no less fast in the real world) and a LAN backup solution which is a RAID-mirror array of two 2tb sata drives. My systems are 2 years old and JUSt as fast as the latest and greatest when it comes to real world DAW performance- (I have had them side by side with friends DAW's and game rigs). The newest systems load games and large PDF files in 4 minutes vs 4.5 minutes, and usually in a 45 second session load my rigs do it in 48-52 seconds- for 1/10th the cost, and almost total data security.

I run either dual boot winXP and CrunchBang linux (Ubuntu) or linux withi VMWare Workstation or player and all my VSTS's and recording apps. I put my older gear next to my top CAD/Game design rigs and I can't notice a single thing from power-on to working on stuff for recording studio. No slower or faster, as the apps we use for pro recording don't utilize or need or demand the things that newer systems use except in benchmarks, which are impreceptible in the real world (I.E. in a 250 second event, the older gear is 270 seconds at most- who can tell? You're sipping coffee and listening to a take or something)...

Anyway.
Stay away from the computer techs selling you new gear, and invest in something like dual p5 instel Xeon ECC-Ram system or a dual quad-core G5 and get some big HSF's for it and run it silent. The less Hd's INSIDE the system the better- there's precious little security for data with normal RAM, especially if those same guys got you overclocking things!

Peace and good luck.

[TangoGranny]

Part of why you want to KISS it (Keep It Simple Stupid!)
is this:
the more gear you put in a case, the more thermal output and the
greater the energy needed to cool it.

A single Q6600, one 500gb or 1.5TB HD with a mobo with integrated graphics on board, or a quiet no-fan GPU and a good silent PSU, is all a DAW needs these days.

If you want or need something more, get a 2nd system and keep the DAW KISS-simple.

Trust me: been there and done it and now I go with KISS for systems that I need to depend on for pro results and work.
p.s.s. that XP2400 will be noticeably slower than a newer system, but you get the drift I hope: you don't need top new gear for a DAW, just top new HSF's, PSU's and maybe big HD's!

SimpleTech makes an AWESOME dual-sata USB/firewire/esata RAID-0/1 enclosure....good idea if you want RAID for redundancy and speed for backups.

[TangoGranny]

By the way, one other point for DAW builders...

I got tired of PC reviews and simply decided to get something quiet:
I got two systems (Ii had the money to check them out)
Dell XPS 1710 and a MacPro 17"
the mac died eventually (heat issues) but the dell still is kicking butt on everything. I do a TON of VST loading and use all the top apps, and it's as fast as my 8-core rigs with 8gb ddr-1200...

Dell XPS 1710 specs
T7400 c2D
4gb ddr-800
500gb WD sata (I use a simple tech usb HD with two NON-Raid 2gb drives in it for backups)
Gf 7900 GS (upgraded to a 7950 GTX 512mb for my two big LCD's- a little bit smoother for faders and such)

AND

I can take it on the road or in the field or use it from my car with my Firewire 1814. I've traveled all over the world with it, and it's kicked butt everywhere I've been. some SM58s and c3000's and -...

[NeilBlanchard]

Welcome to SPCR!

How to "enter with a bang"!

You can buy a NAS (with or without the drives) to do the RAID 5. If you do it in the Solo, then the key thing (as I understand it) is to get a good an dependable RAID controller card. Most often, the controllers on motherboards suck rocks, in my limited experience.

[xan_user]

How about a remote e-sata array? (in a room backing the studio)


Dont learn the hard way..."raid is no excuse for a real backup."

[audiojar]

Personally, I'd put a single large drive in the DAW to record on to and then have a NAS for storage/achieving. A 1.5TB WD Green could be a good choice, I don't think its lower speed will be an issue for a DAW (and it's quiet).

I agree, keep the DAW as simple as possible. A single large drive will be more than enough for any active sessions.

[TangoGranny]

Hey thanks for the welcome.
I used to have an account on here, like years ago, but I forgot what my then email was and my account name. Anyway... I was in a typing mood.

I've found my laptops, if one shops for something that can handle the graphics, and isn't so much a designated "gaming rig" are the best of the best when it comes to something that fits all the bills. I was surprised by the Dell as it's outlasted everything else. AND I got it with a 4-year complete replacement/accidental spills (I've got toddlers)- which has come in handy!!!

However, even my mom's (yeah, my mom) HP dv8000 (intel core-2-duo) with a Gf7800 GS has been able to power the dual-LCD's (WUXGA+) and run all our VST's in a pinch with Windows XP.

by the way, for anyone curious, Vmware releases their VMplayer (v3xxx) for free- that means you can have an OS for free (almost all Linux ones) and run a virtual machine for free, with all your favorite stuff in various OS's to see which one you love and is quicker. It's not good enough for 3D and CAD on it's own UNLESS you get the FASTEST GPU out there (or released in the last 6 months, like 8800 Ultra/GTX or better- or ATI 4850's) but it's totally adequate for ALL DAW stuff, so far... Even my pro-tools works fine in a virtual machine via firewire-device. I'm using it right now to type...Best thing about DAWing in a virtual environment is you can suspend and resume without any issues and revert to a previous state if you should, say, get a virus from some free VST or etc...

I didn't notice much difference between my old Athlon 64x2 4400 (s939) and my newest 45nm quads with 2-3x the RAM and 7.2k HD's- when I open 2gb wave files they load a few seconds sooner, but all take like 20-40 seconds to load.

So in the end, I'd say it all depends on how much VST's one is going to run. for a work-situation, anything with 2 cores around 2GHz per core is plenty good. 3GHz is awesome and quads can be assigned to run cores for different VST's which is nice.

In the end, I stopped RAID back when motherboards started adding it as a consumer feature, as it was soo horrible and insecure: mainly for gamers who want those extra 5-10 seconds shorter load time for a RAID-1 array to load maps (1 minute average or more).

My old XP2400 with a modern HSF (I love the scythe Mugen 2 and Ninja's, or Xigmatec 1283's) and quiet 6600 GT agp card only lacks in load times it's slower) and the amount of VSTs it can run at once compared to a more modern CPU setup. The sweet spot is probably somewhere in the intel E8500/Q6600 or AMD PhenomII 940 range with a p35/45 or 790(fx?) chipset and 4gb ddr2-800 ram (2x2gb) and a decent video card like a 3850 or 9600GT with no fans on it. A rig like that should keep chugging away quietly for many many years without needing an upgrade, with no issues for running the top software out there.

I've been tempted to use RAID a few times, but setting it up and testing it before and after, I really only noticed that I was more worried about the inevitable data loss (always my HD's would fail in sequence, at work or home; the back-up of the backup would die on consumer boards- they're just not good enough quality when things go bad) vs. the few seconds gained that I really didn't notice (what, 3-4 minutes faster "time saved" overall at the end of the day??? Saved for what? )...

the best thing about DAW's in the last 10 years is that it doesn't take as much (outside of large video editing) now to have a killer rig as it did in 90's when a system that could rock cost an arm and a leg! now $400 USD will get you a more than adequate complete system (sans monitors).

Ok. my $30 worth (vs $0.02).
LOL


I do hope people don't do RAID when their art is on the line!!!! It's such a little gain for "cool geek credos" vs. when things go bad. It's so much better to simply do a NAS backup. Drives are soo fast these days, and the recent gear so good compared to years ago!!!!

[Stokesperc]

Thanks for the Help,

I have been convinces to drop the raid. If I ever do build a RAID it will be outside of the DAW.

I'm still thinking about which processor to put in the system.
I really like the processors with Turbo and HyperThreading.
However a Q9550S is only 65w, but really expensive.

Will it be signiffcantly harder to get a i7 860(95W) or i7 920/930(130W)
to near silent levels using somthing like a Noctua NH-U9B SE2 92mm H.S.?

Are there fundamental differences in 1156/1366/775 MOBOs to make one more useful for a DAW?

Keep in mind I will be using an Antec Solo case, One HD, One SSD(maybe), ASUS EAH4350 SILENT/DI/512MD2(LP) Radeon HD 4350 512MB 64-bit DDR2 PCI Express 2.0, Im not sure on PSU and fans.

[bonestonne]

I also wanted the Q9550s model, however due to prices, I stepped down the Q9400.

While I don't pile on the VSTs, my DAW does mostly multi-track recording for bands, and then i go in, one track at a time, and really get into the mix, but i do not use VST instruments, only VST effects modules, added compressors, recently found a free "re-tune" VST...not that it works well, or at all for that matter, but was fun to mess with some paranoid musicians about their mixes.

I have a quad core with 8 gigs of RAM, i run off a SATA-I hard drive for OS/Apps, SATA-II hard drive for scratch disk, it runs absolutely fine. While I wish it was multi-threaded, that's a different story.

Check with the developer website to see if you're even going to need to go quad for the DAW, if you don't use a multi-threaded app, the Quad core will do little good over a dual core for anyone, unless as stated earlier, you run lots of Virtual Machines. Considering my computer is used for everything, homework, gaming, audio, beta testing, i dropped $206 on a Q9400 and love it, but if you're only going to maybe use 2 cores, save the money, or just buy a fast enough dual that will make it worth having, like the E8xxx series. running 10 tracks in adobe audition, giving each track its own effect rack, playing back simultaneously and only seeing ~30% CPU usage is a little disheartening when you have a Quad barely using two cores.

[ame]

Thanks for the Help,

I have been convinces to drop the raid. If I ever do build a RAID it will be outside of the DAW.

I'm still thinking about which processor to put in the system.
I really like the processors with Turbo and HyperThreading.
However a Q9550S is only 65w, but really expensive.

Will it be signiffcantly harder to get a i7 860(95W) or i7 920/930(130W)
to near silent levels using somthing like a Noctua NH-U9B SE2 92mm H.S.?

Are there fundamental differences in 1156/1366/775 MOBOs to make one more useful for a DAW?

Keep in mind I will be using an Antec Solo case, One HD, One SSD(maybe), ASUS EAH4350 SILENT/DI/512MD2(LP) Radeon HD 4350 512MB 64-bit DDR2 PCI Express 2.0, Im not sure on PSU and fans.

The most DAW friendly CPU ever is the i7 920 D0 (or 930+ if you must pay more). Its performance in low buffer (low latency) settings typically used when recording VI's is nothing short of amazing.

The reasons for this are
1. The integrated memory controller.
2. Tripple channel DDR3.
3. HT means 8 threads = ~30% over turning HT off in the BIOS
4. overclockable in stock voltage.

DAWs and VIs especially, are memory bandwidth hogs.

The i5 750 and i7 860 are decent alternatives though the slightly lower mem bandwidth is something to consider.. Q9xxx are all excellent CUPS but don't preform as well in low buffer settings. If your goal is a system that is mostly for VIs - Go for the i7 920. If you do post production or mixing and mastering then you may consider the cheaper/cooler alternatives.

Its quite possible to get a reasonably quiet DAW system using Solo + i7 920 + passive GPU combo. I have one sitting under my desk in the studio.
I use 2 nexus 92 mm in the front hardwired to 5V. TRUE+Arctic PWM 120 at 450-600 RMP. Slipstream 120 running at 800 rpm as exhaust. Practically inaudible from 1-2 ft away. Its low noise enough so that I can record in the same room if I want. Actually people think I'm crazy when I say I can still hear it.


Was said before: Raid is not for Audio.

[Stokesperc]

I use mainly Ableton Live which does take advantage of multicore CPUs.

I do traditional recording which is not too CPU intensive, however I also
do experimental music using Samples, VIs, and live audio with VSTs on many tracks. I want a machine that is more powerful than I need
so I can experiment without always worrying about maxing out my system.

Is the i7 920 fairly efficient underl ight to medium load. Although it is 130W it seems reasonable that because of Turbo and multi-threading it would be.

What is the quietest and coolest heatsink/fan combo for this CPU.

Is there any particular 1366 MOBOs that would have lower latency than others or are they all about the same?
[/quote]

[Stokesperc]

I found this one: NH-U12P SE2
http://www.noctua.at/main.php?show=prod ... 31&lng=en
Is there anything else I am missing?


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[ame]

That Noctua is top noct, good fan too. Mugen 2 also a valid option that comes with a very good fan.