First build since 2001: revision 1, looking for advice

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qdaku
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Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2010 11:10 am
Location: Vancouver

First build since 2001: revision 1, looking for advice

Post by qdaku » Wed Mar 10, 2010 12:52 pm

Hola,

Working on my first build since 2001 when I went to various laptop setups (which worked while getting two degrees and moving ~5000km, twice).

The situation: living in a diminutive sized downtown apartment. No tv/cable (don't watch it, too busy). Me and the misses have been watching DVDs on a very aged macbook. Her macbook is about to be dead. No longer need the laptops for school and I use mine in a fixed location anyways. If I need to do work away from the office (e.g. the field), work supplies me with a laptop.

The goal: a media station, some light gaming on titles I missed (fallout 3), and some controllers dangling out the back for various emulators (N64 mariokart throwdowns and such). Some room for expansion wouldn't be bad --e.g. throwing in some tv-tuners, should I ever want to rejoin humanity and watch TV. Low power draw would be nice (my utilities are scandalously cheap and I want to keep them that way), but the main requirements are good specs for what I need it to do and quiet.

The placement: Tiny apartment. It will be tucked on the lower level of a coffee table directly below where I will be using it. Users will typically be <1-2m away.

Based off of various reviews / guides here, and on tom's hardware:

Rev 1 build (~newegg.ca CAD prices)

Case/PSU: NSK2480 - $120, can't fit a tower where I need to place it.
CPU: AMD Athlon X2 250 3.0 Ghz - $70
MB: ASRock M3A785GMH $89
ram: Kingston ValueRAM 4GB (2 x 2GB) 240-Pin DDR3 SDRAM DDR3 1333 ($110)
HD: SSDs too much $, Seagate Barracuda 7200.12 ST3500418AS 500GB 7200 RPM ($59)
vid: SAPPHIRE 100256HDMI Radeon HD 4670 1GB 128-bit DDR3 $80
some generic dvd rw: $30
-----

total: $558

The video card is a total blind shot in the dark. I'm not sure if it would be overkill for my needs, or underpowered for my needs (I've been away from the PC scene for a very long time, and am not a huge gamer).

Any room for improvement? Any way to cut costs/trim fat? Any advice for the video card?

Mats
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Post by Mats » Wed Mar 10, 2010 2:37 pm

Welcome to SPCR!!


- You will never nothice the difference between an Athlon 240 and a 250. The price difference is small though.

- New motherboards will show up next month, with the 880G/SB850 being a good choice for you. The two most important updates are SATA 3 (useful for future SSD's) and USB 3 (added on most new boards). Only you know if you need it.

- I'm not sure the HDD is the best choice, but Idon't know actually. Some WD may be more low noise.

- The 4670 is a good, low power GPU, but the card you've chosen can't be the very good. See the cooler? It's only half height, even though the card is full height. That fan will spin much faster than a 70 or 80 mm fan have to do to keep it cool. It's possible that the pic is wrong tho, make sure before you buy. The 5670 is a good alternative.

0ldfart
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Re: First build since 2001: revision 1, looking for advice

Post by 0ldfart » Wed Mar 10, 2010 2:47 pm

qdaku wrote:
Case/PSU: NSK2480 - $120, can't fit a tower where I need to place it.
CPU: AMD Athlon X2 250 3.0 Ghz - $70
MB: ASRock M3A785GMH $89
ram: Kingston ValueRAM 4GB (2 x 2GB) 240-Pin DDR3 SDRAM DDR3 1333 ($110)
HD: SSDs too much $, Seagate Barracuda 7200.12 ST3500418AS 500GB 7200 RPM ($59)
vid: SAPPHIRE 100256HDMI Radeon HD 4670 1GB 128-bit DDR3 $80
some generic dvd rw: $30
-----

total: $558
1. consider 235e or 240e for cpu. 20w less tdp than the 240 = lower power consumption and less fan rpm to cool (quieter)

2. Consider at a 5 series Radeon instead of a 4. The 5 will give you DX11 and Audio Bistreaming. An nVidia GPU will give you Physx, but they are still DX10. Physx is not much of a benefit on the mid-range cards, so this is probably not that advantageous in the price range you are considering. Fallout 3 is pretty intensive, so if you are wanting to catch up on many recent games, something higher up the performance ladder will definitely have benefits for your FPS

Will PM you some info as the Forum wont let me post links yet.

On HDD, a 2.5" is a good compromise on the SSD - very quiet, very cool and more energy efficient than a 3.5" drive.

[edit] cant pm yet either. tomshardware - articles - graphics - Best Graphics Cards For The Money: January 2010
Last edited by 0ldfart on Wed Mar 10, 2010 2:53 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Mats
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Location: Sweden

Post by Mats » Wed Mar 10, 2010 2:59 pm

The TDP is a limit, not an absolute value. It's also only interesting when you're running att full load.
The real world difference is much less than 20 W, especially since the 240 isn't the top speed 65 W model. You can always undervolt if you want to.

DX11 is not an argument when looking for a sub 100 CAD card, simply because it won't give enough FPS.

qdaku
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Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2010 11:10 am
Location: Vancouver

Post by qdaku » Wed Mar 10, 2010 3:14 pm

With regards to the NSK2480.

I could do it using a tower. I would have to rearrange a few things in my living room, but it's possible. Obviously smaller is better, but I could go as big as a mid tower I think.

Anything decent at the price point (or cheaper) of the NSK2480?


----

with regards to DX11 (mats) -- pointing me in the direction of a DX11 capable card?

Mats
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Location: Sweden

Post by Mats » Wed Mar 10, 2010 3:23 pm

Well I mentioned the 5670, because it's faster than 4670, not because it also happens to be DX11. Here's a review.

Otherwise you have the 5750 and the 5770, faster and more expensive.

JamieG
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Post by JamieG » Wed Mar 10, 2010 5:43 pm

For a quieter system, try adding a Scythe Ninja Mini CPU cooler - it fits really well in NSK2480-based systems.

With the nearby fans, you can run the Ninja Mini passively on that CPU. As a bonus, if you feel comfortable doing so, try swapping the Ninja Mini's 80mm fan into the included Antec Earthwatts PSU to replace the stock PSU fan - Warning: some soldering required and be careful so as not to electrocute yourself!

A final touch would be replacing the stock Antec fans with some quieter fans and undervolting them. Scythe and Nexus make some good fans, and Yate Loon fans (an OEM manufacturer for Nexus) are pretty cheap and decent when undervolted.

qdaku
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Location: Vancouver

Post by qdaku » Thu Mar 11, 2010 7:36 pm

Should I be looking at replacing the stock fan on the Athlon X2?

Starting to stretch the budget at this point (windows 7 + taxes + shipping, ugh). What's best bang for my buck quiet + efficient?

Mats
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Post by Mats » Thu Mar 11, 2010 8:34 pm

I have no idea of how quiet you actually need it to be, but I think you should keep the stock cooler for now and undervolt it.

There's no chance for you to get Windows 7 for free? School/University/Work? People at my university can access MSDNAA and download for free up to 5 years after being registered.

Otherwise, download Windows 7 for free directly from Microsoft (skip "File Method" and scroll down to "ISO Method"). You can use it for 120 days without having a key with this simple command. This means that you can postpone the actual buying of windows.
Just remember to install the version (Home Premium, Ultimate,... AND 32 or 64 bit) you actually are going to buy, otherwise you have to reinstall.
64-bit Home Premium is probably a good choice for you.

Buy an OEM Windows version, they're cheaper than retail but can only be installed on one system. If you intend to keep the computer for more than 2 years then I don't see any problem with that.
It costs 115 CAD, while the retail costs 205.

Oh and get the Athlon 240, not the 250 or the 240e or something, it will save you a few bucks.

il_grande_silencio
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Post by il_grande_silencio » Fri Mar 12, 2010 12:44 am

Regarding that Seagate drive, I would probably recommend against it. Seagates at 7200rpms are quite loud and tend to get warm. I know this is a bit odd and subjective, but: I had 3 Seagates fail within the last 9 months (those were external 7200rpms) and while the customer support is great I just cannot recommend them anymore. If speed is an issue try to use one of WD's speedy laptop drives - quieter, less heat and probably not much slower.

I personally run the OS on a small SSD and all my data is on WD EARS drives, which are VERY quiet don't get hot.

s

0ldfart
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Post by 0ldfart » Fri Mar 12, 2010 2:57 am

JamieG wrote:For a quieter system, try adding a Scythe Ninja Mini CPU cooler - it fits really well in NSK2480-based systems.

.
Im pretty sure the Scythe Ninja Mini has been discontinued. (It has in Australia, at least, where I am. Not possible to buy it here any more) :(

0ldfart
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Post by 0ldfart » Fri Mar 12, 2010 3:03 am

Mats wrote:The TDP is a limit, not an absolute value. It's also only interesting when you're running att full load.
The real world difference is much less than 20 W, especially since the 240 isn't the top speed 65 W model. You can always undervolt if you want to.
One CPU is 45w tdp (ie less heat to dissapate) the other is 65w tdp, (ie more heat to dissipate). At the end of the day you can crunch the numbers however you like but the fact remains that the e cpu will run cooler.

So what point are you trying to make?

Mats
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Post by Mats » Fri Mar 12, 2010 5:18 am

0ldfart wrote:So what point are you trying to make?
- TDP is a limit, not an absolute value. Do you understand the difference?
If a certain CPU model is available in 2.7, 2.8 and 3.1 GHz and they all have a TDP = 65 W, do you really think they use the same amount of power?
The answer is no. Their TDP is equal or less than 65 W, and the lower clocked a certain CPU is, the lower is the actual power consumption.
There are exceptions, like mobile CPU's and high end CPU's, where binning is more common, but that is an expensive process.

- In real world, the difference is usually smaller that what the TDP claims: In SPCR's review you can clearly see that the difference
of the Q9550S (65 W TDP) and the Q9550 (95 W TDP) in power consumption is only 15 W, when it should be 30 W.

- Undervolting can be used to lower the power consumption even further, those CPU's with lower power usage are usually factory undervolted.
After undervolting the two CPU's in the review above they used the same amount of power.

- Finally, even if the power consumption is close to the TDP, it's still only interesting when you push the CPU to the limit, ie running at 2 x 100% in this situation.
Otherwise, it just sits there at 10 W when you're browsing the web or listens to music.
It may ramp up for a fraction of a second every now and then, but that's hardly anything that affects you. It all depends on what you do with your computer.

I'd expect the difference in power consumption between the 240e and the 240 to be <10 W, something that easily can be lowered with undervolting.

0ldfart
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Post by 0ldfart » Fri Mar 12, 2010 1:26 pm

Thanks for the ellucidation.

:wink:

There's an assumption here that the underclocking results would be the same as the intel cpu's. As there's only one example, its a bit iffy to extrapolate that it would apply to all models.

Likely if the two cpus were run in the same conditions, that the lower tdp would run cooler. No way of knowing this (given the information above) without being able to put them side by side and test though.

Interesting stuff, nonetheless :)

MikeC
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Post by MikeC » Fri Mar 12, 2010 2:31 pm

0ldfart wrote:Im pretty sure the Scythe Ninja Mini has been discontinued. (It has in Australia, at least, where I am. Not possible to buy it here any more) :(
Still on active product list at the Scythe website, and still fairly widely available in North Am.

The NSK2480 is a very good HTPC case at the price -- nothing really to compete with it. Swapping out fans (including the one in the PSU) can make it run quieter... but so can keeping the top cover off and running the fans really slow. I'm doing that in a smaller HTPC case that's in a shelf below my TV (in a stand). The shelf is only 6~7" high, and with the PC pushed back a bit, you can't even tell that it's coverless -- and it's perfectly safe -- ie, nothing can call into it accidentally. But you'll want to check if the PC noise is really an issue for you, especially if the TV is usually on when the PC is running; the TV's sound will drown out the noise of any moderately noisy PC. See ACOUSTICS AROUND A MEDIA PC.

Most of the various suggestions here are good -- and I agree about avoiding the 7200rpm Seagate. If 500gb is all you need, just go to a 2.5" drive -- the HDD can often be the most audible component, and a laptop drive is usually quieter & almost always has less vibration. (Tho if you scour SPCR's HDD reviews carefully, you'll spot several 3.5" drives that are about as good -- mostly 5400 or 5900rpm models.)

qdaku
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Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2010 11:10 am
Location: Vancouver

Post by qdaku » Sat Mar 13, 2010 9:25 am

Thanks for all the help guys.

It's been ordered.

I'm sure there will be some tweaking once it's built and running and I see how loud (or quiet) it is.

Great tips, I'm glad I found this place.

hybrid2d4x4
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Post by hybrid2d4x4 » Mon Mar 15, 2010 8:46 pm

JamieG wrote:As a bonus, if you feel comfortable doing so, try swapping the Ninja Mini's 80mm fan into the included Antec Earthwatts PSU to replace the stock PSU fan - Warning: some soldering required and be careful so as not to electrocute yourself!
This is very good advice, but soldering should not be necessary. If you are careful, you should be able to slide the plastic female "receptacle" that the original 2pin fan is plugged into, and lift it straight up and away, leaving the two vertical pins sticking up from the PCB in the PSU. They happen to be spaced just the right distance apart for you to slide the standard 3-pin fan connector (the voltage/ground holes) onto the prongs and presto! (Just make sure to mark down which of the original fan's wires is the GND and which is the 12V, and orient the 3pin fan connector appropriately) I wish I had pics but hopefully the description will make sense...

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